Whistlinbill's Collection #6: Khukuri - Page 2

sirupate · 15th February 2012, 10:09 AM

Hi Bill,
I am surprised that kukri manufacture would have been considered in England in WW2 (although for a while it was thought that the M43 might have been made in England), especially with the already high production levels required for the War for the established manufacturers, and of course the cost of kukri production in India was fare less, by the hundreds of workshops out there.

Post Partition, 2nd GR, 6th GR, 7th GR and 10th GR, remained with England, and where the British Gurkhas, the rest retained in India were the Indian Gorkhas. So post partition the term Gurkha was used to refer to the British Gurkha Regiments only. The term 'Gurkha' was first used by Major General Sir David Ochterlony in 1815, the father of the Gurkhas. The term Gurkha/Goorkha etc, was an abbreviation of the Nepalese Goorkhali.

Traditionally in the Gurkhas, the British Officers had the kukri or the khunda made that were used for the festival of Dasain (Nepalese), by the kami of the regiment, they wouldn't buy them from someone like Windlass.
I can't say what the post War Indian Gorkhas did or didn't do. I do know from interviewing Officers of the Gurkhas in the Indian Army, they were quite often still having their own kukri made (ref an interview in 2008).
Below Captain McCalla's kukri (both made by the regimental armourer/kami; the top one was his fighting kukri he used in Burma during WW2, the bottom one was made for the Dasain festival, and used by the Regiment;

Below another one given to me, also WW2 armourer made, which was beautifully balanced, above it for size comparison is an 8th GR kukri WW2;

All the best Simon

Lee · 15th February 2012, 10:32 AM

Here is the next group...

sirupate · 15th February 2012, 10:50 AM

Kukri no.17, most likey a WW2 IA issue kukri
No.18, tourist
No.19, most likely late 19th, or very early 20th century military issue kukri
No.20, most likely a civilian kukri WW2-1960's
No.21, civilian kukri circa WW2

Atlantia · 15th February 2012, 11:19 AM

Hi Bill,

#18 is an interesting beastie!
Many of these were made in the early part of the last century for the British 'Raj' market as decorator pieces.
I'm sure there is a printed advertisment floating around somewhere from the first quarter 20thC, showing them with other 'familiar' 'indo-persian' weapons made for the same purpose which now are often optimistically described as 'ceremonial' or 'parade'.
The mix of styles is fantastic, the exaggerated Kukri blade decorated in chiseled 'indo persian' style, the rather nice Tulwar hilt. What a great thing!

I've often wondered if some of these were married up with older hilts. Even the one on yours is every bit as good (better in fact) that a hilt on a fine persian wootz Shamshir bladed Tulwar that I own.

#21 is shown with the same combination frog and karda/chakmak pouches that are usually seen with the Indian ww2 era private purchase Kukri like #1 & #2.

Best
Gene

Berkley · 15th February 2012, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

#18 is an interesting beastie!
Many of these were made in the early part of the last century for the British 'Raj' market as decorator pieces.
I'm sure there is a printed advertisment floating around somewhere from the first quarter 20thC, showing them with other 'familiar' 'indo-persian' weapons made for the same purpose which now are often optimistically described as 'ceremonial' or 'parade'.

From the 1927 Francis Bannerman Catalog:

Atlantia · 15th February 2012, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berkley

From the 1927 Francis Bannerman Catalog:

And as if by magic........
1927, I was close!

Thanks buddy!

I think they are fantastic, I'd like one myself.

whistlinbill · 15th February 2012, 05:06 PM

Simon, Gene and Berkley,
Thanks ever so much! You are again lifting the scales of ignorance from my
eyes! Gentlemen, you have no idea how much I appreciate your scholarship and willingness to share!
Bill

sirupate · 15th February 2012, 06:35 PM

A pleasure Bill

whistlinbill · 16th February 2012, 03:36 AM

Simon, I'm not sure if I answered you correctly on the Sheffield-made knives.
I only recall one or two kukris that we had out of Sheffield, and we had
LOTS of old stock from the factories there. It seems like the kukris came
from Joseph Rodgers--I'm right sure Ben Lowe made the comment about
religion re kukris.
I will ask Sudhir Windlass about their sales to the British before Indian independence and to the Indian Government afterwards.
If I recall correctly, their family name is Ved, and the shop was known
as "Ved and Sons".
I'll get back when I get hold of Sudhir.
Thanks,
Bill

sirupate · 16th February 2012, 08:26 AM

That would be excellent Bill, many thanks, cheers Simon
PS do you still deal with Windlass?

whistlinbill · 16th February 2012, 11:40 PM

Sure. I go by the Conyers office every now and then, and visit Sudhir and Pradeep and the guys I used to work with.
Bill

sirupate · 17th February 2012, 10:03 AM

Cool

Lee · 22nd February 2012, 01:50 AM

And the next group...

sirupate · 23rd February 2012, 05:48 PM

Hello Lee, with the information already given about the other kukri, you might well be able to work out what the kukri are in your last post.
Put down what you think they are and we will take it from there

napoleon · 23rd February 2012, 08:56 PM

love the two silver handled examples regards napoleon

15th February 2012, 10:32 AM	#32
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 913	Here is the next group... Attached Images

22nd February 2012, 01:50 AM	#43
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 913	And the next group... Attached Images

23rd February 2012, 08:56 PM	#45
napoleon Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 88	lets see more khukris please everyone love the two silver handled examples regards napoleon

15th February 2012, 10:09 AM	#31
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hi Bill, I am surprised that kukri manufacture would have been considered in England in WW2 (although for a while it was thought that the M43 might have been made in England), especially with the already high production levels required for the War for the established manufacturers, and of course the cost of kukri production in India was fare less, by the hundreds of workshops out there. Post Partition, 2nd GR, 6th GR, 7th GR and 10th GR, remained with England, and where the British Gurkhas, the rest retained in India were the Indian Gorkhas. So post partition the term Gurkha was used to refer to the British Gurkha Regiments only. The term 'Gurkha' was first used by Major General Sir David Ochterlony in 1815, the father of the Gurkhas. The term Gurkha/Goorkha etc, was an abbreviation of the Nepalese Goorkhali. Traditionally in the Gurkhas, the British Officers had the kukri or the khunda made that were used for the festival of Dasain (Nepalese), by the kami of the regiment, they wouldn't buy them from someone like Windlass. I can't say what the post War Indian Gorkhas did or didn't do. I do know from interviewing Officers of the Gurkhas in the Indian Army, they were quite often still having their own kukri made (ref an interview in 2008). Below Captain McCalla's kukri (both made by the regimental armourer/kami; the top one was his fighting kukri he used in Burma during WW2, the bottom one was made for the Dasain festival, and used by the Regiment; Below another one given to me, also WW2 armourer made, which was beautifully balanced, above it for size comparison is an 8th GR kukri WW2; All the best Simon

15th February 2012, 10:50 AM	#33
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Kukri no.17, most likey a WW2 IA issue kukri No.18, tourist No.19, most likely late 19th, or very early 20th century military issue kukri No.20, most likely a civilian kukri WW2-1960's No.21, civilian kukri circa WW2

15th February 2012, 11:19 AM	#34
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Bill, #18 is an interesting beastie! Many of these were made in the early part of the last century for the British 'Raj' market as decorator pieces. I'm sure there is a printed advertisment floating around somewhere from the first quarter 20thC, showing them with other 'familiar' 'indo-persian' weapons made for the same purpose which now are often optimistically described as 'ceremonial' or 'parade'. The mix of styles is fantastic, the exaggerated Kukri blade decorated in chiseled 'indo persian' style, the rather nice Tulwar hilt. What a great thing! I've often wondered if some of these were married up with older hilts. Even the one on yours is every bit as good (better in fact) that a hilt on a fine persian wootz Shamshir bladed Tulwar that I own. #21 is shown with the same combination frog and karda/chakmak pouches that are usually seen with the Indian ww2 era private purchase Kukri like #1 & #2. Best Gene

15th February 2012, 05:06 PM	#37
whistlinbill Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 24	Simon, Gene and Berkley, Thanks ever so much! You are again lifting the scales of ignorance from my eyes! Gentlemen, you have no idea how much I appreciate your scholarship and willingness to share! Bill

15th February 2012, 06:35 PM	#38
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	A pleasure Bill

16th February 2012, 03:36 AM	#39
whistlinbill Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 24	Simon, I'm not sure if I answered you correctly on the Sheffield-made knives. I only recall one or two kukris that we had out of Sheffield, and we had LOTS of old stock from the factories there. It seems like the kukris came from Joseph Rodgers--I'm right sure Ben Lowe made the comment about religion re kukris. I will ask Sudhir Windlass about their sales to the British before Indian independence and to the Indian Government afterwards. If I recall correctly, their family name is Ved, and the shop was known as "Ved and Sons". I'll get back when I get hold of Sudhir. Thanks, Bill

16th February 2012, 08:26 AM	#40
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	That would be excellent Bill, many thanks, cheers Simon PS do you still deal with Windlass?

16th February 2012, 11:40 PM	#41
whistlinbill Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 24	Sure. I go by the Conyers office every now and then, and visit Sudhir and Pradeep and the guys I used to work with. Bill

17th February 2012, 10:03 AM	#42
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Cool

23rd February 2012, 05:48 PM	#44
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hello Lee, with the information already given about the other kukri, you might well be able to work out what the kukri are in your last post. Put down what you think they are and we will take it from there