A very special 'tulwar'

Jens Nordlunde · 24th June 2018, 05:24 PM

In his book Tirri shows the attached 'tulwar'. These are very rare and were used by a man on horse to stab someone laying on the ground. The idea was that the very slim, but stiff blade, should be able to penetrate a mail shirt, or maybe even plates. Tirri writes that these hilts were introdiced under Aurengzeb.

The only other one I have seen was, many years ago, in The Army Museum(?) in Istanbul, but the hilt was, of course, different.

Jim McDougall · 24th June 2018, 08:13 PM

The good thing about Tirri's book is that its a great collectors handbook, and shows examples of a wide spectrum of weapons that typically come up in sales etc. This is one of the anomalies in that book, and I cannot say I have ever seen another.

It does seem that in some limited degree there were rapier blades mounted in early European contact in Mahratta context with Hindu basket hilts, but whether they were for court wear or actual use is not clear.

The estoc was a long sword made for thrusting alone and used in various European armies in medieval to renaissance periods. Its cross section was ribbed as seen on armor piercing katars etc. and these were usually mounted on the saddle under the horsemans leg,
This is shown in Rembrandts "The Polish Rider", while the rider wears a sabre at the side as regularly known.

The Ottoman's are known to have had such a thrusting sword which I believe was called a 'mec' and are illustrated in Yucel's book on Islamic swords.

Indian swordsmanship is often hard to describe or relate to when they are adopting the weapon forms of other groups or cultures, but that this is a thrusting sword in any manner is clear. Intriguing example!

Jens Nordlunde · 24th June 2018, 10:42 PM

In Germany they are called 'Panzer stecher' as far as I am informed, so they must have been knnown in Germany as well. They are, however, rare.

A. G. Maisey · 25th June 2018, 05:49 AM

Jens, I do believe this type of weapon would be exceptionally rare, by virtue of the fact that not many men have 20" wrists.

fernando · 25th June 2018, 11:43 AM

Yes, Tirri doesn't give dimensions but, looks like a very large and heavy weapon.
I wonder why he gives Aurangzeb reference only to the the hilt style and not to the whole sword ... providing we can call it a sword.

Roland_M · 25th June 2018, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

In Germany they are called 'Panzer stecher' as far as I am informed, so they must have been knnown in Germany as well. They are, however, rare.

Hello Jens,

yes "Panzerstecher (eng. armor piercer)" or (Estoc, Bohrschwert eng.: bore sword) is correct. The lower dull part of he blade is intended to be grabed with the free left hand to bring more power to the thrust with both hands.
In Germany or generelly Europe many techniques were known with the Estoc in both hands to give a better lever or more momentum behind the thrust.

Roland

Jens Nordlunde · 25th June 2018, 03:21 PM

If I remember correctly, the length of the 'blade' is about the same length as a firangi blade, maybe a bit longer.

Kubur · 25th June 2018, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Yes, Tirri doesn't give dimensions but, looks like a very large and heavy weapon.
I wonder why he gives Aurangzeb reference only to the the hilt style and not to the whole sword ... providing we can call it a sword.

Question: some Indian maces have tulwar handles but they are not called tulwar, right?
Do you think that your weapon is a tulwar - a sword - or a spear?
It looks like a spear to me...

Jens Nordlunde · 25th June 2018, 03:59 PM

Thank you Roland:-).

Tirri calls it a 'Trusting Tulwar'. Which I find is wrong, that is why I wrote 'tulwar', as I did, as I did not know what it was called in English - I only knew the German name.

fernando · 25th June 2018, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Question: some Indian maces have tulwar handles but they are not called tulwar, right?
Do you think that your weapon is a tulwar - a sword - or a spear?
It looks like a spear to me...

For me, i would refer to the blade as the name giver and would call it an Estoc with a Talwar hilt ... while regarding the different spells of Estoc (tock, tuck, tucke ) .
In Norman's page 22-23 we can read how Sir John Smithe deals with this weapon typology.
«tocks very conveniently worne after the Hongarian and Turkie manner under their thighs which tocks are long narrow stiffe swords onlie for the thrust»
Whether the hilt type varies among countries/cultures and blade differs in profile and cross section (almost a rod some times ?) is another business. So happens with their purpose to perforate mail or only bodies, i guess.
The name Mec is apparently modern Turkish, pairing with European Panzerstecher or Hegyestor.

24th June 2018, 05:24 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	A very special 'tulwar' In his book Tirri shows the attached 'tulwar'. These are very rare and were used by a man on horse to stab someone laying on the ground. The idea was that the very slim, but stiff blade, should be able to penetrate a mail shirt, or maybe even plates. Tirri writes that these hilts were introdiced under Aurengzeb. The only other one I have seen was, many years ago, in The Army Museum(?) in Istanbul, but the hilt was, of course, different. Attached Images

24th June 2018, 08:13 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	The good thing about Tirri's book is that its a great collectors handbook, and shows examples of a wide spectrum of weapons that typically come up in sales etc. This is one of the anomalies in that book, and I cannot say I have ever seen another. It does seem that in some limited degree there were rapier blades mounted in early European contact in Mahratta context with Hindu basket hilts, but whether they were for court wear or actual use is not clear. The estoc was a long sword made for thrusting alone and used in various European armies in medieval to renaissance periods. Its cross section was ribbed as seen on armor piercing katars etc. and these were usually mounted on the saddle under the horsemans leg, This is shown in Rembrandts "The Polish Rider", while the rider wears a sabre at the side as regularly known. The Ottoman's are known to have had such a thrusting sword which I believe was called a 'mec' and are illustrated in Yucel's book on Islamic swords. Indian swordsmanship is often hard to describe or relate to when they are adopting the weapon forms of other groups or cultures, but that this is a thrusting sword in any manner is clear. Intriguing example! Attached Images

24th June 2018, 10:42 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	In Germany they are called 'Panzer stecher' as far as I am informed, so they must have been knnown in Germany as well. They are, however, rare.

25th June 2018, 05:49 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Jens, I do believe this type of weapon would be exceptionally rare, by virtue of the fact that not many men have 20" wrists.

25th June 2018, 11:43 AM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Yes, Tirri doesn't give dimensions but, looks like a very large and heavy weapon. I wonder why he gives Aurangzeb reference only to the the hilt style and not to the whole sword ... providing we can call it a sword.

25th June 2018, 03:21 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	If I remember correctly, the length of the 'blade' is about the same length as a firangi blade, maybe a bit longer.

25th June 2018, 03:59 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you Roland:-). Tirri calls it a 'Trusting Tulwar'. Which I find is wrong, that is why I wrote 'tulwar', as I did, as I did not know what it was called in English - I only knew the German name.