Earliest Use of Paired Crescent Moons on Solingen Blades

[Jim McDougall]

Peserey, thank you so much for joining us here, and for sharing this wonderful old shashka of your family.

This appears to be a Caucasian shashka of most likely 1890s into early 1900s which is mounted with a Solingen trade blade. It is hard to say for certain as this 'cosmological' arrangement with moon and stars seems copied from some of the motif associated with the Schimmelbusch family. Their markings did not typically have the moon, but various astral symbols with stars in three's. The shape on these correspond to much older Solingen symbols often termed 'cogwheels' but are usually seen as stars.

While Caucasian makers often produced their own blades, typically in Chechnya and copying European marks, the ones on your blade suggest it s a German blade rather than Caucasian.

[peserey]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Peserey, thank you so much for joining us here, and for sharing this wonderful old shashka of your family.

This appears to be a Caucasian shashka of most likely 1890s into early 1900s which is mounted with a Solingen trade blade. It is hard to say for certain as this 'cosmological' arrangement with moon and stars seems copied from some of the motif associated with the Schimmelbusch family. Their markings did not typically have the moon, but various astral symbols with stars in three's. The shape on these correspond to much older Solingen symbols often termed 'cogwheels' but are usually seen as stars.

While Caucasian makers often produced their own blades, typically in Chechnya and copying European marks, the ones on your blade suggest it s a German blade rather than Caucasian.

Thank you. We have our family migrated from the Caucasus in the years 1780-1790. this sword came along with them.

[kronckew]

'nother set of paired crescents, on a takouba

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for entering this here Kronckew!
This is certainly an interesting perspective on the mystery of the 'dukari' which are of course the paired crescents found mostly on Saharan takouba.

What is unique here, in an apparently quite modern example of the traditional form takouba, is that these curious 'P' marks in semi arc are paired back to back in the same configuration and location at fuller terminals, as the typical crescents known as dukari.

These paired crescents, which seem to invariably occur on takouba blades (some kaskara as well) have many possibilities as to their original meaning or purpose. However, it would seem the most probable was some sort of magical or talismanic imbuement, as has been suggested by various writers on these Saharan tribes.

Though this example is clearly quite modern, the tradition seems to be applied here by interpolation of this letter and arc symbol, which could be connected to any number of meanings. I have seen this on another blade, and Im sure that Iain will have as well.

Interesting!!! and hopefully we might find other examples or suggestions on these markings.

[ulfberth]

Hi All,

so far the earliest version of crescent moon stamps I found was in Hermann Historica auction 71 Lot Nr. 3065 and in this case it was described as a blade of the Munich bladesmith Diefstetter :

"A Swiss hand-and-a-half sword, circa 1570
Long, double-edged blade, each side with a short fuller, the obverse side with a stylised wolf with remnants of brass inlays. Each side of the ricasso with a crescent moon mark of Munich bladesmith Diefstetter"

kind regards

[ulfberth]

Here is a very similar hand and a half sword, with an almost identical blade including the crescent moon stamps on both sides of the ricasso and running wolf on the blade, the pommel is very resembling to.


Kind regards

Ulfberth

[cornelistromp]

amazing beautiful sword !!!( sword post 36 )

what is the connection between Diefstetter and the crescent moon?

Melchior diefstetter had as mark Crossed flails and shield lozengy (checkered shield).

fe post#5

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=diefstetter

Melchior Diefstetter died in 1556.

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

amazing beautiful sword !!!( sword post 36 )

what is the connection between Diefstetter and the crescent moon?

Melchior diefstetter had as mark Crossed flails and shield lozengy (checkered shield).

fe post#5

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=diefstetter

Melchior Diefstetter died in 1556.

Thanks Jasper !
And yes that is correct, Diefstetter is known to have the crossed flails as a blade mark.
The crescent moon referring as a mark of Diefstetter is how the sword ( post 35 ) was described by Hermann Historica.
I was as surprised as you are, perhaps another later member of the family ?

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[cornelistromp]

there is also a later member and swordmaker of the diefstetter family from Munich known;

Ulrich Diefstetter 1536-1589, who had a checkered shield and a jester head as a mark but no crescent moon.

best,
Jasper

[ulfberth]

I don't know were Hermann Historica got the information about crescent moons used as a mark by Ulrich Diefstetter,
perhaps they had a reference we don't know about yet.
I thought both swords were nice examples that fit in this post "Earliest Use of Paired Crescent Moons on Solingen Blades "
It would be interesting to find out if the crescent moons were used by this family of sword makers or not.
We do know that they were used by various makers, the earliest I found so far are these two similar hand and a half swords.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for posting these Ulfberth!!! and that sword is a beauty!

As far as I have known, the crescent 'man in the moon' stamps were originally used by the 'espaderos del Rey' (sword makers for the king) in Spain, and this particular mark was widely copied in Solingen and Munich.
It was not specific to a certain maker, but became more of an accompanying symbol of imbued quality suggesting the Toledo associations.

The cross and orb and other markings such as the 'Passau Wolf' also became widely used as many other markings in these capacities.

It seems that Stantler was more known to have used these moons as he used Spanish names and the stamps recorded in Palomares on many blades. Diefstetter as noted used flails as a mark, but it would not be surprising in my opinion to see these moons on his blades.

[blue lander]

I'd like to throw this odd tulwar into the mix:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Dukari

And this schiavona:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...0&postcount=68

...purely to confuse the topic

[Jim McDougall]

Actually no confusion at all!
These are interesting examples of the spurious use of these kinds of markings on various blades, the one a 'souvenier' item from India. The other with schiavona hilt is of triple fuller sabre form usually it seems from Solingen well into and through 19th century. The quad groupings of crosses and usually another device (comet and stars, or in this case moon) are often seen on Algerian 'nimcha' blades (see Briggs, 1965).

[blue lander]

Are there other examples of Indo-Persian tulwar blades with non-spurious moons on them? I was under the impression that most European blades circulating in that area were British. I just have a hard time understanding what this souvenir maker was trying to accomplish when he went out of his way to add these marks to the blade.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by blue lander

Are there other examples of Indo-Persian tulwar blades with non-spurious moons on them? I was under the impression that most European blades circulating in that area were British. I just have a hard time understanding what this souvenir maker was trying to accomplish when he went out of his way to add these marks to the blade.

It is hard to imagine what the creator of this blade was trying to add with these clearly 'artistic' interpretations of the astral symbols often seen on European blades (usually Solingen) as noted in the discussion linked (5/16).
It is hard to determine just which exact region this sword might be from as it is something contrived using a regular Indo-Persian tulwar hilt (widely dispersed through mostly northern regions) but others in degree.

While there were many British blades, typically sabre blades especially M1796 occurring in tulwars, most of the 'firangi' blades southward were German and of backsword type with many broadswords on patas.

It does not seem crescent moons were typically used in the Indian repertoire and these appear to just simulate European marks as they were often seen as imbuements of power etc. or such interpretations.

Just my thoughts from what I have noted, but others more experienced in these weapons might add more.

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you for posting these Ulfberth!!! and that sword is a beauty!

As far as I have known, the crescent 'man in the moon' stamps were originally used by the 'espaderos del Rey' (sword makers for the king) in Spain, and this particular mark was widely copied in Solingen and Munich.
It was not specific to a certain maker, but became more of an accompanying symbol of imbued quality suggesting the Toledo associations.

The cross and orb and other markings such as the 'Passau Wolf' also became widely used as many other markings in these capacities.

It seems that Stantler was more known to have used these moons as he used Spanish names and the stamps recorded in Palomares on many blades. Diefstetter as noted used flails as a mark, but it would not be surprising in my opinion to see these moons on his blades.

Hi Jim,

This is also what I think and indeed the most probable cause if I may use this term, as Jasper has also referred to this Spanish/German origins in post #26.
It seems the crescent moon became more of a quality mark as a personal maker signature.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Excellent thread ...To which I add in agreement that these moons were probably not owned by individual sword makers moreover they were associated with different factories rather as a quality marker...something like the Passau wolf marks...and Ferrera marks. In my view I view Arabian swords with moons placed by local sword smiths here at https://books.google.com.om/books?id...swords&f=false

I am not certain when all the sword design/decoration influence occurred between Europe and Africa though some sources indicate as early as 14th C...It seems to me that moons were often accompanied by suns in the European examples but the Moons were either favoured by African and Islamic subjects because of the new moon thus must have carried a TALISMANIC IDEA..

[ulfberth]

Salaams Ibrahiim,

Thank you for your comment, Indeed a quality mark amongst the ones you mentioned.
As were the eyelashes marks also early European, which we also see on African and Indian swords.
It would be interesting to see how far we can go and find even earlier or other crescent moons.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Salaams Ibrahiim,

Thank you for your comment, Indeed a quality mark amongst the ones you mentioned.
As were the eyelashes marks also early European, which we also see on African and Indian swords.
It would be interesting to see how far we can go and find even earlier or other crescent moons.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

I found these ~ Some Solingen? In the Moroccan Nimcha the moon accompanied by the sun common on European blades... The moon shaped Indian Axe inspires comparison in use of a moon shaped weapon as opposed to a blade with moons...Also shown is the triple dot on what are sometimes called eyelash or hogs back combinations which may be rudimentary moons?

See also the Pata or Dandpata at https://www.pinterest.com/pin/432064157979557937/ with two moons.

[ulfberth]

Hi Ibrahimm,

that Nimcha has what we call a talisman blade in it, it sure European, looks like 18th C and could be French , Northern Spain or even ... Portuguese

kind regards

Ulfberth

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Excellent thread ...To which I add in agreement that these moons were probably not owned by individual sword makers moreover they were associated with different factories rather as a quality marker...something like the Passau wolf marks...and Ferrera marks. In my view I view Arabian swords with moons placed by local sword smiths here at https://books.google.com.om/books?id...swords&f=false

I am not certain when all the sword design/decoration influence occurred between Europe and Africa though some sources indicate as early as 14th C...It seems to me that moons were often accompanied by suns in the European examples but the Moons were either favoured by African and Islamic subjects because of the new moon thus must have carried a TALISMANIC IDEA..

Ibrahiim, it truly is hard to determine reasonably accurate dates of adoption of the various symbols and devices from European blades into the talismanic motifs on native blades. We can compellingly presume these are indeed talismanic as in the case of the 'dukari' (paired moons) which are the subject of our study, these were placed in addorsed position while most European blades had single examples of the moon.
Native blacksmiths in the Sahara with the Tuareg, as well as Hausas, were just as in many cultures, viewed with dark suspicions, and their blades seen as possessing 'magic'.

While the sun and stars are included in the astral theme of blades in many cultures and these kinds of motif, it is the moon which seems to carry the most impetus talismanially and with folk religions and superstitions.

I think you are quite right in looking toward the 'hogs back' or sickle marks of European origin as perhaps a lunar symbol. The arc and the dentations indicating reflective rays, whether of that intention in European parlance or not, certainly might be perceived in native cultures as a reflective moon.
While many aspects of such symbolism in native folk religions have to do with phases of the moon (as with Lohr panels on Sudanese blades), the commonly placed use of the duality theme is also often present.

With cosmological symbolism often key in folk religions and superstitions in many native cultures, it is not surprising that they saw the talismanic and magically themed blades of Europe as having imbued powers. Even with blades with alternate themes, inscriptions or marks, they would likely have seen these in the same sense, but presuming these other motif as simply the same scope but similar properties.

Absolutely Ulfberth!!
The more examples we can find of these moons in different contexts the more we can build a reasonable perspective on their diffusion both geographically and perhaps even chronologically.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Hi Ibrahimm,

that Nimcha has what we call a talisman blade in it, it sure European, looks like 18th C and could be French , Northern Spain or even ... Portuguese

kind regards

Ulfberth

Ulfberth I agree on all points and placed the talismanic blade marks to illustrate the single moon in European context accompanied by a sun.
Regards,
Ibrahiim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim, it truly is hard to determine reasonably accurate dates of adoption of the various symbols and devices from European blades into the talismanic motifs on native blades. We can compellingly presume these are indeed talismanic as in the case of the 'dukari' (paired moons) which are the subject of our study, these were placed in addorsed position while most European blades had single examples of the moon.
Native blacksmiths in the Sahara with the Tuareg, as well as Hausas, were just as in many cultures, viewed with dark suspicions, and their blades seen as possessing 'magic'.

While the sun and stars are included in the astral theme of blades in many cultures and these kinds of motif, it is the moon which seems to carry the most impetus talismanially and with folk religions and superstitions.

I think you are quite right in looking toward the 'hogs back' or sickle marks of European origin as perhaps a lunar symbol. The arc and the dentations indicating reflective rays, whether of that intention in European parlance or not, certainly might be perceived in native cultures as a reflective moon.
While many aspects of such symbolism in native folk religions have to do with phases of the moon (as with Lohr panels on Sudanese blades), the commonly placed use of the duality theme is also often present.

With cosmological symbolism often key in folk religions and superstitions in many native cultures, it is not surprising that they saw the talismanic and magically themed blades of Europe as having imbued powers. Even with blades with alternate themes, inscriptions or marks, they would likely have seen these in the same sense, but presuming these other motif as simply the same scope but similar properties.

Absolutely Ulfberth!!
The more examples we can find of these moons in different contexts the more we can build a reasonable perspective on their diffusion both geographically and perhaps even chronologically.

Hello Jim, and I welcome your post!

I occasionally see references pushing the style or fashion for moons back to the 14th Century coinciding with the thought that European blades were being exported in about the same time frame.. Much of that is somewhat hearsay thus I search for this distinction... It is interesting that in searching for Talismanic work the most compelling evidence today...and still used..comes from Morocco. It is not only the talimanic designs and spells but the person who does the practical work;...The smiths who convey from generation to generation the secret powers of such craft; It is something of a double act with the metal smith, silversmith or metalworker doing the actual work whilst the actual spells are done by the wandering magician folk..written on paper...then you go off to a silver man and it gets done... There is a powerful history of Jewish work there and the wandering and very weird looking magician people who still look like they just stepped out of an ancient history manual on spells and magic...Sort of like apothecaries ..and if they had a pointed hat you would think of Merlin or some sort of Witch or magic man... They are highly respected and very much part of the scenery as you find in all the old souks...quite amazing!
Ibrahiim.

[Jim McDougall]

Very well noted Ibrahiim!! and these talismanic properties in these markings used on sword blades, and they have been used in varied form well into antiquity. It seems such marks are found even on blades into Roman times (I think reference in Oakeshott, 1962) among others in similar simple style.
In central Europe into early times tribal people often used astral symbols, such as Szekelers who used sun and moon as symbols in their material culture.

It also seems that I have seen suggestions of the double addorsed crescent axes as seen often in India and others having symbolic lunar significance.

Magic in various cultures may often be one of the key elements, from the shaman into prehistory into more recent times to the medicine men, witch doctors and associated capacities .Elements of folk religion, pagan and animist traditions to the established mystic and magic properties often held in many of the major religions are widely known. However their esoterica may lead to misunderstanding many aspects of the symbolism.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Very well noted Ibrahiim!! and these talismanic properties in these markings used on sword blades, and they have been used in varied form well into antiquity. It seems such marks are found even on blades into Roman times (I think reference in Oakeshott, 1962) among others in similar simple style.
In central Europe into early times tribal people often used astral symbols, such as Szekelers who used sun and moon as symbols in their material culture.

It also seems that I have seen suggestions of the double addorsed crescent axes as seen often in India and others having symbolic lunar significance.

Magic in various cultures may often be one of the key elements, from the shaman into prehistory into more recent times to the medicine men, witch doctors and associated capacities .Elements of folk religion, pagan and animist traditions to the established mystic and magic properties often held in many of the major religions are widely known. However their esoterica may lead to misunderstanding many aspects of the symbolism.

Indeed Jim and I note on passing the subject of the Evil Eye pointing to the amazing eye built into an English Church at Edmundbyers which is probably Saxon...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Ibrahiim,
Actually that rayed eye represents the Eye of Providence, often used in Christian iconography, and became popular in renaissance iconography.
It represents the Eye of God over mankind.
It is often associated with Freemasonry, and on the US dollar bill it is atop pyramid. The association with the symbol on US currency and that Masonic association is debated.

The 'evil eye' is of course an entirely separate notion, but indeed in many cases associated with the purpose of talismanic imagery, but with blade decoration most typically on ethnographic rather than European blades.

Thank you for keeping this thread current!!!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Ibrahiim,
Actually that rayed eye represents the Eye of Providence, often used in Christian iconography, and became popular in renaissance iconography.
It represents the Eye of God over mankind.
It is often associated with Freemasonry, and on the US dollar bill it is atop pyramid. The association with the symbol on US currency and that Masonic association is debated.

The 'evil eye' is of course an entirely separate notion, but indeed in many cases associated with the purpose of talismanic imagery, but with blade decoration most typically on ethnographic rather than European blades.

Thank you for keeping this thread current!!!

Thanks Jim, Also interesting with the six pointed star ... Regards Ibrahiim...

[DStirk]

Apologies in advance for resurrecting an old thread that may have been resolved elsewhere. I have been researching markings on a collection of Scottish basket-hilted swords that were damaged in a house fire. They belong to my stepfather and I am in the process of stabilizing and conserving them as best I can. This is my first post on the forum, and I hope it is of interest to some here.

One sword in particular is relevant to this thread, as it has the triple fuller/ paired stylized crescent moons, and partial tang features of many Kaskara blades, yet was incorporated into a probable basket-hilt type. I say probable, because the basket hilt was lost in the fire. I am intrigued by the short tang, as this seems like a structural weakness and probable liability when paired with a basket-hilt. Perhaps it was ceremonial, and not intended to be used in anger.

I am also curious about whether the blade was European and intended for African sale, but ended up in Scotland, or whether it could conceivably have ended up in Scotland via Africa. From this thread I have learned that the paired moons on the blade are more likely to be African than European.

Anyway, here are some photos. In the meantime I will ask my stepdad what he knows of the provenance of the blade, and whether he has any pre-fire photos of it with the hilt.

Cheers,
Duncan[IMG]http://[/IMG]

[Mefidk]

Hello Duncan, thanks for posting this interesting example. Sorry to hear about fire damage, it along with theft is something we all fear for our collections!
I have recently been examining a number of kaskara tangs, and this does very much look like a kaskara blade.
The short tang was inserted through a crossguard into a cylindrical grip and a pin used to hold it all together. This is of course not the strongest possible construction, but when well packed it is surprisingly strong.
Prior to these swords becoming valuable in their own right there was a time when people often transformed kaskara from their proper form to European types. I own a couple of these myself. Some of this might have been innocent thinking these were knightly swords, but often they were retrofitted to schiavonas and basket hilts (the blade dimensions being the same). The tang is the give away of course, but unless the sword is dismantled as in your case it can be hard to see.

Give aways for the kaskara are the slightly lozenge shaped tang with the hole in a flattened part and the uneven shoulders to the blade. This triple fuller with cresent moons is probably the most common kaskara blade type, and judging from your blade I'd say that is is an older one (it looks in the pictures to have a less flat profile than the later blades.

These blades were often (I believe) trade blades which were unmarked on arriving in Africa, but were then modified by the addition of the dukari and forming of the tang to fit the local swords. You will often find the identical blades in takouba which have a different tang (long and thin, peened over the guard). I would very much be interested in anyone knows of museum examples of these munitions quality blades since although general consensus seems to be Solingen, I have not seen any definite proof in terms of shipping records etc.. Plenty for higher end blades with makers marks, but these specific ones are more common and still a bit of mystery.

The picture is one of my kaskara, this one was one of those 'restored' as a knightly sword.
Best,
Chris