African cuirass?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... It is rather like the study of Masonic swords and regalia in the 'Western' sense...

Another theme that is not one of my favorites .

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... it is true that this metal would not deflect a bullet of high velocity, it must be remembered that in the 19th century, black powder rounds were of low velocity. In many instances, rounds barely penetrated the target owing to many circumstances, quality and condition of powder, improper loading etc...

Distance is the business, Jim, distance. At close range, even the weakest of powders may boost a projectile strongly enough to penetrate in a mild wall. Remember that already in earlier centuries the smith had to shoot a test round at the cuirasses plate, to ensure its bullet resistence to customers.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... into the debate on these ballistics issues of the effectiveness of these firearms used in these regions in the 19th century is beyond the scope of this discussion, but certainly pertinent with respect to my observation...

I'd say it is within scope indeed, as the consistency of the iron plate in Panoleon's cuirass will help pondering on whether such is an operational item or a replica ... symbolic or theatrical.
... Reason why i have asked him to tell us the weight of his example, to which he will hopefully answer.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... presence of the Christian cross is simply noted to recognize the West African likelihood of the European styled 'cuirass' (made from reptile hide) as seen often in their material culture there. This feature is also seen in the stylized interpretations of European swords with these on the quillon terminals (usually regarded as Congolese but the influence was from Portuguese traders in West Africa). It has been my understanding that these crosses were seen more in a magic or power sense than any sort of religious quantification...

Why not assuming that, if the cross symbol was good enough to make African natives believe that this had magic powers like turning them imortal, why then also not assuming that European (Portuguese) natives originally carry such believe with them and so transferred it to their hosts ? This is rather a complex subject, which i confess to be without knowledge. One thing is to believe that a material testimony of faith will validate our doings, as in the name of God's, like with a credential to rest in peace when we die (heaven and all), the other is that we will not die when we carry them. A further hypothesis would contemplate that, in so many cases, the bearer enjoys a determined motif (or gadget) because it is different, coming from a different world. Don't we all ? less esoteric but praticable.
Have a nice weekend, Jim .


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[colin henshaw]

Jim McDougall]Hmmmm,
I WONDER if this could be a kind of regalia for use by a member of one of the secretive guilds or societies known in West Africa, one that comes to mind is the 'Crocodile guild'. There are others known as 'Leopard hunters' etc. who used the scaly anteater (pangolin) hide, however they wore crocodile hide helmets, so the use of crocodile hide is quite possible, if not likely (as per Spring, op.cit. noting variations of materials used).

Jim's theory about Crocodile Secret Societies is certainly colourful and exotic, but given the likelihood the cuirass was put together in Europe, can probably be safely discounted (the rivets are particularly compelling).

As for diplomatic gifts, it has been my understanding that such items were notable quality examples representing the culture of the presenter, not imitations of those they are giving it to.

Far from it, gifts would often be cheap and showy. An example I have to hand is from the intrepid American lady explorer who travelled in East Africa in the late 19th century, May French-Sheldon ... extracts from her book attached. Another example ... Sir Joseph Banks had brass replica Maori clubs "patu" made in 1772 for distribution to important natives in New Zealand. Image attached. However, it should be noted that for the coronation of King Archibong III of Calabar in 1878 his regalia was provided by Queen Victoria, so presumably of good quality ? Image attached.

Basically, why would anyone ship crocodile hide to Europe, to make a cuirass to send back to Africa?

Crocodile hides for making luggage, shoes etc, along with other animal skins, have long been an export item from Africa to Europe.


Considering again my first post of this thread, above ... perhaps a third, less likely option should be added :-

Its simply an old hobbyist production using a Victorian copy breastplate - for hanging on the wall in some large house or for "dressing-up" (which was popular among the middle and upper classes in the 19th and early 20th century.

[Kubur]

I remind you gentlemen that all the stories above are grounded on nothing...

There is no proof that this armour is old nor African...





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[Gonzoadler]

Originally Posted by fernando

Another theme that is not one of my favorites .

... Reason why i have asked him to tell us the weight of his example, to which he will hopefully answer.

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Panoleon already answered to this question in this thread. The weight is 2.2kg. I think that is too light for a bulletproof cuirass but enough to protect against many edged weapons.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Kubur

... I remind you gentlemen that all the stories above are grounded on nothing...
There is no proof that this armour is old nor African...

No one wants to prove anything, Kubur. If you assume that your grounds have more solidity, no problem with that !

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzoadler

Panoleon already answered to this question in this thread. The weight is 2.2kg. I think that is too light for a bulletproof cuirass but enough to protect against many edged weapons.

My bad; did not pay enough attention to that.
Yes, a weight much distant to what you can call a reinforced cuirass. This way the odds split between either the 'blade proof' real thing or a decorative replica, as approached by Colin.

[drac2k]

Gonzoadler makes an excellent point that while this might not serve as protection from a bullet, this certainly would prove effective in deflecting a sword blade in the late 18th or early 19th Century which would have still been the prevalent mode of combat at that time.
To many in the forum, the mix of a European-style breastplate with rivets, and the embellished with a crocodile hide poses a problem, however to me it makes perfect sense. Throughout Africa's history, European Nations had a presence there as they were vying for Colonies for trade and to offset the power of other countries.
A present of a metal cuirass in the 1880s or 1890s to an important African person would have been highly prized. These were readily available and no longer meant to serve as protection, but more for pomp and ceremony in the West; An example that readily comes to mind is the cuirass that is still used by the English Household Cavalry Life Guards to this day. It is plausible to me that this valuable item would then be Africanized. The possibility of the rosettes in the form of the cross doesn't bother me either as there are religious battles still being engaged in that country to this day; if a Cross could protect a Crusader, why not a Chieftan or as Jim commented, it could merely be talismanic and have nothing to do with Christianity.
It has been noted that there isn't a museum number on this piece, which is valid, however in the past when I acquired several pieces formerly from a Movie Studio, they were clearly marked "Property of RKO Studio; "since this piece isn't so marked, I think that this argument is a draw, neither proving nor disproving the pieces origin.
It has also been stated that this item has been glued to the cuirass, which makes sense to me as glues have been known for centuries such as the ones used by the Mongolians and the Ottomans on their compound bows.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by fernando

No one wants to prove anything, Kubur. If you assume that your grounds have more solidity, no problem with that !

Not at all, this is not something really documented, I can't say more... and the fantasy thing seems to be a general consensus.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by drac2k

... It has also been stated that this item has been glued to the cuirass, which makes sense to me as glues have been known for centuries such as the ones used by the Mongolians and the Ottomans on their compound bows...

Not that this is a vital factor but, no glue was used to fix the hide to the chest piece, but rivets; apparently the male/female style as used in Europe (#11), which does not mean they couldn't be acquired in Africa. If i am correct, the glue possibility was mentioned to have possibly used to fill those two "missing something" holes, but Panoleon soon described the material as "some sort of molten metal. Probably lead" (#16#).
I see the point in Europeans gifting light weight cuirasses to local leaders in the late nineties but, by own historical influence, i only tended to think of gifts given (and swaped) during a much earlier period (Congo, Dahome), when heavy weight cuirasses (and swords) were of contemporary use.

[Jim McDougall]

As always, great points and observations, and a wonderfully lively discussion which I am enjoying very much.
It is true, this concerns hypotheticals, which is the texture of a discussion seeking evidence, possibilities and plausibility in lieu of provenance and documentation.
The term 'fantasy' is perhaps not best applied for an item not yet resolved as to its disposition in use, ceremonial, ritual, traditional etc. Regalia, especially in many African contexts, may be regarded as fanciful, but temporally significant to native peoples.

I still hold to my idea that this is a refurbished regalia cuirass (of hide) being used traditionally in one of West Africa's secret society groups, most likely the crocodile oriented one but could be other. Its being quite old, and coupled with an iron backing could be for many reasons, but durability seems most pragmatic.
The apotropaic properties are something we cannot address with certainty, but we know the folk reliions in West Africa deeply believed in such things.

[fernando]

Panoleon, can you tell us from what part of the world you got your cuirass from ?

[colin henshaw]

A suggestion for Panoleon, if he wishes to pursue it ... collecting Movie Props (presumably old ones as well as new), is quite a popular interest and looking on the internet I see there are discussion forums like this one, dedicated to the subject. So perhaps also posting the cuirass in a suitable Movie Props forum would be useful. ( even if it only helps to prove a negative) ?

[Panoleon]

Good sugestion Colin, I'll try a movy prop forum.
I bought the cuirass in the Netherlands. It didn't came from a collection.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

A suggestion for Panoleon, if he wishes to pursue it ... collecting Movie Props (presumably old ones as well as new), is quite a popular interest and looking on the internet I see there are discussion forums like this one, dedicated to the subject. So perhaps also posting the cuirass in a suitable Movie Props forum would be useful. ( even if it only helps to prove a negative) ?

Thats a great idea Colin! if nothing else to remove this persistent element from the equation. There were I understand numerous firms which produced costume elements for movie studios, the sets and larger items were quite another story.
In California, a rather curious tangent of archaeology has evolved with one foremost recollection, that of finding the remains of architecture of ancient Rome and greece from DeVille's lavish movie productions buried in the desert.

The only way I can imagine this 'armor' item ending up in the Netherlands would be from the incredibly huge volume of materials from West African and Congo regions ending up in Belgium. Some of the best references on African arms are from authors there.

[Jim McDougall]

Looking further into the 'cult' , secret society and other such organizations in Africa, it seems such traditions are well steeped into antiquity.
Apparently in Egypt, in about 3rd century AD, there were indeed cults centered around the crocodile, which was revered as sacred and divine, and much feared.
In this time, Roman soldiers occupied Egypt, and in about 1840s, certain exploration around the regions of Manfalut, on the banks of the Nile (250 mi. south of Cairo) discovered a 'cuirass' and helmet of crocodile hide which was found among mummified remains, including of crocodiles.

These pieces are displayed and identified in the British Museum, and have been radiocarbon dated too 3rd c. AD.In the description it notes, 'in many parts of Africa the crocodile is seen as a fearsome and invincible creature ' and that warriors wearing these things might be transformed in some magical way, and take on the formidable attributes of the animal.

While it seems chronologically improbable that practices and traditions such as this would remain in situ in modern tribal societies, it should be noted that numerous examples of such atavism is well represented in Africa.

The plate of illustrations of weapons (British museum) of Egypt shows the remarkable character of modern African arms (19th-20th c) compared to examples of ancient Egypt. It is known that many tribal peoples in the Sahelian and sub Saharan regions had come from very early migrations from Nilotic areas. It seems reasonable that many of these traditions and weapon forms may have diffused along with them.

The profound reverence, and fear, toward the crocodile remains in the Sudan as well, and in conversations with a man of Fur descent (Darfur) I was told that the placement of crocodile hide on the sword was quite totemic.
The kaskara (pics attached) fully clad in crocodile seems excessive in the more common applications, while the Mahdist weapons often had considerable coverage.
However, in certain respects, perhaps in these cult type regalia, this kind of dramatic application may have served well.

The African weapons shown are a Songye axe , Azande sickle saber, and trumbash , all from Congo regions.

[Jim McDougall]

Although we are discussing a cuirass from Africa, I wanted to add, at least anecdotally, a similar kind of case from here in Texas.

In the 1870s, armor and a helmet were in the Pecos desert in Texas, near the Rio Grande river by an army doctor, who said they still encased the bones of the wearer. Years later he gave these (less the bones) to anthropologist and army captain John G. Bourke (c. 1890s) . It had been presumed these items had been worn by a 16th century Spanish explorer.

In time, the front and back plate cuirass had been lost, and what remained was the 'mantle' (over shoulders) and a very strange helmet. When these items came into possession of University of Nebraska, research done revealed that Spanish explorers used no such armor, only some mail, and leather armor (curera). The helmet has no comparison to anything whatsoever.

The 'mantle' was comprised of small iron scales, attached to a cotton backing, much in imitation of 'cataphract' (=scaled) armor, and examination revealed these to be of 'bloomery' type process iron, a very old process of smelting far predating the 19th c. methods.

Basically, the 'armor' was of old components, but seemingly amalgamated with material not congruent. The suggestion was that these items might have been from an opera company or fraternal group, but no such groups existed n these regions in those times.

Naturally, those times were wrought with lore and tall tales, and my question is, why would one of these mantles have been worn over a breast and back plate? Over mail I could see, but not sheet armor. The helmet looks like a baseball cap, nothing like anything Ive seen in armor.

Just illustrating these kinds of conundrums have other counterparts.

[colin henshaw]

Getting closer !

[Kubur]

As Kirk could have said "nearly there"...

[Richard G]

I've been reading this thread with interest. Who would have thought it difficult to distinguish between a tribal african artifact and a movie prop?
Anyway, on a purely speculative basis, is it possible to develop one of Colin's possibilities, i.e. that it is a diplomatic gift.
Is it possible this was made in an Islamic or non-tribal African arsenal for trade with, or a gift to, the more southern tribes. I am thinking of somewhere like Khartoum\Omdurman, Bornu, Djibouti etc, which probably would have had access to European trade metalware they could incorporate.
All trade and travel in 19th Cent Africa required immense amounts of 'hongo' or bribe and this looks as if it could fit the bill.
I realise the question of why we haven't seen one before arises.
The Zanzibar nimcha is familiar to us all, but at the risk of exposing my ignorance, do we know where they were actually made? My point is there must have been manufacturing centres that we are not aware of as well as the few we do.
Regards
Richard

[fernando]

It looks as if the only depiction available of a crocodile attire is the one in exhibition at the British museum. Something worth to note is how they categorize the implement, first as a suit and, after in the text, as an " imposing armour comprising helmet and cuirass ". This is notoriously a figure of speech, as this most interesting apparatus is no armour, starting by having its opening on the center chest side. More plausible would be a priest, or equivalent, wearing this outfit in a cult cerimony; potentially acceptable that this attitude is is based on the same principle as religion; fear. I would rather use this plain term than Jim's apotropaism, for reasons connected with the vastitude of the late; thinking of Brazil, then Europe. Going deep into it, scholars even find it in (European) songs.
To say that, if crocodiles were inoffensive, they would hardly have a ranking place in local ritual stages. Whether Romans took the device with them back home, assuming that it would serve for cult rather than for trophy purposes, is for one's consideration; that not for illuminated historians.
All in all, pretending that the comparison in effect of this attire with that of the Panoleon cuirass, might well be subject to a serious judgement.
So, in my humble perspective, we may have not reached one only step towards finding what Panoleon's implement is about.

[colin henshaw]

Originally Posted by fernando

It looks as if the only depiction available of a crocodile attire is the one in exhibition at the British museum. Something worth to note is how they categorize the implement, first as a suit and, after in the text, as an " imposing armour comprising helmet and cuirass ". This is notoriously a figure of speech, as this most interesting apparatus is no armour, starting by having its opening on the center chest side. More plausible would be a priest, or equivalent, wearing this outfit in a cult cerimony; potentially acceptable that this attitude is is based on the same principle as religion; fear. I would rather use this plain term than Jim's apotropaism, for reasons connected with the vastitude of the late; thinking of Brazil, then Europe. Going deep into it, scholars even find it in (European) songs.
To say that, if crocodiles were inoffensive, they would hardly have a ranking place in local ritual stages. Whether Romans took the device with them back home, assuming that it would serve for cult rather than for trophy purposes, is for one's consideration; that not for illuminated historians.
All in all, pretending that the comparison in effect of this attire with that of the Panoleon cuirass, might well be subject to a serious judgement.
So, in my humble perspective, we may have not reached one only step towards finding what Panoleon's implement is about.

This thread is certainly proving popular ! The crocodile "armour" from Nubia is
for sure an impressive and well-known object. I have looked closely at it in the BM a number of times. Likely it is connected with the Ancient Egyptian crocodile god "Sobek" and the cult surrounding him...

However, it is not to be dismissed in this context as it may have a connection with Panoleon's cuirass ... in that it could well have provided the impetus for the design of a prop (whether for a movie or theatre production). Likewise it no doubt would be a source of inspiration for a hobbyist in the past who wanted to make a striking item either for display or "dressing up".

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Richard G

I've been reading this thread with interest. Who would have thought it difficult to distinguish between a tribal african artifact and a movie prop?
Anyway, on a purely speculative basis, is it possible to develop one of Colin's possibilities, i.e. that it is a diplomatic gift.
Is it possible this was made in an Islamic or non-tribal African arsenal for trade with, or a gift to, the more southern tribes. I am thinking of somewhere like Khartoum\Omdurman, Bornu, Djibouti etc, which probably would have had access to European trade metalware they could incorporate.
All trade and travel in 19th Cent Africa required immense amounts of 'hongo' or bribe and this looks as if it could fit the bill.
I realise the question of why we haven't seen one before arises.
The Zanzibar nimcha is familiar to us all, but at the risk of exposing my ignorance, do we know where they were actually made? My point is there must have been manufacturing centres that we are not aware of as well as the few we do.
Regards
Richard

'm with you Richard! The 'movie prop' angle is definitely a new one for these pages, perhaps the 'tourist' or 'souvenir' terms have worn thin
Your note on the bargaining items (bribes etc.) typically key in trade is well placed, and certainly the vast diffusion of arms and material culture, along with influences were carried along the equally vast trade networks of the continent.

I do appreciate the humor in the previous posts, which well illustrate the levity of the movie prop probability, though at the risk of deriding the potential tribal importance of this cuirass/armor/hide vest or whatever correctness deems the proper description.

My curiosity has compelled me to continue research into the potential instances of this interesting combination of crocodile hide and metal, and to be honest, I was looking into the possibility of Sudan much as you have suggested. In my previous post, and from research some years ago, it is well known that crocodile hide was often used on weaponry there, in various degree and application. As I had noted, apparently there was a keen intent of the imbuement of power, in a totemic sense as had been told.

In reading the literature concerning swords of Sudan, there was a mention of 'crocodile cults' (I think it was either Briggs, '65 or Reed '87) and I thought possible connection to the heavily crocodile clad kaskara I had. There was scant information on this topic back then, so I did not pursue it further.

As you have noted, there was considerable presence of metal, materials and machinery present at Khartoum, assembled by Gordon, and captured by the Mahdi in 1885. All of this became stockpiled and liberally used by the Caliph at Omdurman, and remained along with continued materials during the Anglo-Egyptian Condominium in the years following the fall (1898).

While the use of these scrap metals etc. was considerable, the use of armor, particularly the mail armor well known previously in Sudan, had waned, though its use had prevailed in trade points to the west through Chad, Bornu and Nigeria. With armor in these regions, it was mail which was favored, but not the 'full metal jacket', with hide cover.

Returning to the West African scene, I looked again toward the 'cults' , in which the most prevalent and notable was that of the "Leopard Society', which seems to have had a history of tribal tradition going back many years. However by the 19th century into early 20th, these warrior groups had become rather nefarious cults, and with apparently diverse ajendas and character.

The 'Leopard men' were one of the most notorious and criminal, and were situated in regions from Liberia and Sierra Leone into other tribal areas.
For the 'movie buffs' here, they became the topic of one of the Tarzan movies ('Tarzan and the Leopard Men' ,1935). The sensational adventure writing of the previous years gave of course much material for these themes.

In these 'societies' (which were more cults ), the members believed (contrived) to become possessed by the carnivorous animals they revered, and they committed heinous crimes while 'under the spell'.
With the 'leopard men' , they dressed as leopards using various covers of either actual hide or material simulating the animal, and designed steel claws (much like the Indian bagh nakh).

These 'shape shifting' totemic identies also included crocodiles, but the 'costuming ' in those cases remain unclear. While there are depictions of the leopard men, I am not aware of similar of 'crocodile men'. However, it would be naive, given the evidence of leopard costumes, to presume nobody devised a crocodile counterpart. Obviously the earlier crocodile vests, cuirass, armor were known and probably still around.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Returning to the West African scene, I looked again toward the 'cults' , in which the most prevalent and notable was that of the "Leopard Society', which seems to have had a history of tribal tradition going back many years. However by the 19th century into early 20th, these warrior groups had become rather nefarious cults, and with apparently diverse ajendas and character.
In these 'societies' (which were more cults ), the members believed (contrived) to become possessed by the carnivorous animals they revered, and they committed heinous crimes while 'under the spell'.
With the 'leopard men' , they dressed as leopards using various covers of either actual hide or material simulating the animal, and designed steel claws (much like the Indian bagh nakh). ... These 'shape shifting' totemic identies also included crocodiles, but the 'costuming ' in those cases remain unclear. While there are depictions of the leopard men, I am not aware of similar of 'crocodile men'...

Dear Jim, i followed your perspective and am now coming from the reading of a blog well detailed on the moves of these leopard men beasts; simply horrifying.
Concerning the (apparent) non existence of other wild animals 'vests', the blogger argues that:

In fact, in the underworld of African cults and sects, there were Cults devoted to Baboons and Crocodiles that acted like their totemic animals, imitating their behavior and killing as they acted in the wild. The leopard, however, was the largest and most feared of the Cults for being considered a strong animal and responsible for guiding the dead in the other world.

This could be an explanation. Yet we still see a 'missing link' between putting on an animal hide and building a metal chest cuirass covered with a portion of skin.

[Will M]

This could be a prop from many years ago. I would like to mention that the aged reproductions you can find for sale online that are expensive will fool even some of the most knowledgeable collectors. This is just an example of how aged reproductions can appear: https://www.warhats.com/u-boat-caps.html#/

[Richard G]

This is not all that helpful, but seems to suggest crocodile skin armours at least existed.
Regards
Richard
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/484770347390098508/

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...
The helmet has no comparison to anything whatsoever.

..., but not sheet armor. The helmet looks like a baseball cap, nothing like anything Ive seen in armor.

Just illustrating these kinds of conundrums have other counterparts.

Roman Coolus helmet ~200BC: Baseball cap 'Visor' is a protective neck piece. Also google 'secret helmets' worn under cloth hats. I've seen one with a circular top bit removed some place before.

[Will M]

It is an impressive looking piece. If used in actual combat, any opponent seeing it would believe it was just leather armour and would have been surprised when his sword or dagger failed to penetrate.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Dear Jim, i followed your perspective and am now coming from the reading of a blog well detailed on the moves of these leopard men beasts; simply horrifying.
Concerning the (apparent) non existence of other wild animals 'vests', the blogger argues that:

In fact, in the underworld of African cults and sects, there were Cults devoted to Baboons and Crocodiles that acted like their totemic animals, imitating their behavior and killing as they acted in the wild. The leopard, however, was the largest and most feared of the Cults for being considered a strong animal and responsible for guiding the dead in the other world.

This could be an explanation. Yet we still see a 'missing link' between putting on an animal hide and building a metal chest cuirass covered with a portion of skin.

Thank you Fernando. In mentioning these groups, I wanted to spare any elaboration on their nefarious activities, but note that these warrior fraternities of many years earlier were apparently 'reactivated' in a more cult type character. We know the earlier members were warriors who did wear animal hides etc. as we have seen with the pangolin armor of Benin for example.
As has been previously noted, the guage of the steel used may not have been intended in the 'armor' sense as a physical defense, but as a medium to adequately support an older and less durable piece still important as totemic regalia.

Wayne, 'bonk'!!! I completely missed the steel helmets worn under hats, and I had never seen those Roman things......here I will note armor is a very unfamiliar field for me so I am way in the learning curve....so thank you!

Will and Richard, thank you for the input! every item of data and idea holds more material for the possible resolution of these kinds of dilemma. I know Im learning a lot from the research Im doing and the observations of everyone here. I like the teamwork here!!!

[fernando]

For quite a while i wonder whether the large skin cracks on Panoleon example already existed before it was riveted to the iron piece or it simply kept drying on its new host and its splitting went on taking place through time.
Any suggestions, Gentlemen ?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Richard G

This is not all that helpful, but seems to suggest crocodile skin armours at least existed.
Regards
Richard
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/484770347390098508/

Good shot, Richard,
That gives an impulse to look at these things with 'wider' eyes.
One that i would never buy as being the real stuff turned to be one made with the bony scales called 'scutes', situated in the crocodile postoccipital area.

.