Difficulty’s in working with meteorite as a pamor material

[purwacarita]

~Hing ngarsa sing tuladha, Hing madya mangun karsa, Tut wuri Handayani

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by purwacarita

Hi nechesh. Have you had a PM from me? It's what I meant that we must treat fairly. There has been injustice but we cannot retaliate violence with violence.

No Purwacarita, i am afraid that i have not recieved any PMs from you. Please try again.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by purwacarita

Hi Pusaka. C is an insulator and metal is inducable by surrounding electromagnetic field.

Carbon is not an electrical insulator; actually it’s a very good electrical conductor. If you put two metal plates with a piece of carbon between them you will find that it wont make a capacitor but that the whole thing will just short the circuit. I know a little about Electronics and Engineering

[Pusaka]

I am surprised, even with Boedhi Adhitya`s higher estimate the composition of a typical meteorite pamor keris is 94% Iron, 4% Steel and only 2% meteorite material.
I had always thought that the meteorite content of the pamor would have been several times that quantity.
I was shown a meteorite keris and the seller said it had a pamor made with 70% meteorite content, what do you think, is that even possible????

Considering the absolutely tiny content of meteorite in a meteorite pamor keris I don’t think the high prices for such items is even justified.

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I am surprised, even with Boedhi Adhitya`s higher estimate the composition of a typical meteorite pamor keris is 94% Iron, 4% Steel and only 2% meteorite material.
I had always thought that the meteorite content of the pamor would have been several times that quantity.
I was shown a meteorite keris and the seller said it had a pamor made with 70% meteorite content, what do you think, is that even possible????

Considering the absolutely tiny content of meteorite in a meteorite pamor keris I don’t think the high prices for such items is even justified.

In a word Pusaka, NO, i don't think that is possible.
Sellers will tell you many stories in order to sell their wares. Caveat Emptor!

[Jeff Pringle]

I have made knives with 50% meteorite, and 100% is certainly doable, but the blade would not hold a very good edge. 70% should look very silver when freshly etched.

Sellers will tell you many stories in order to sell their wares. Caveat Emptor!

Very true! 70% bandsaw blade (or other hi-N steel) would look the same as 70% meteorite.

On the meta-meteorite side of things, the Earth is made up of recycled meteorites, i.e. the entire solar system is made up of the same original dust cloud.
But the parts of the dust cloud that have been in cold storage for 4.56 billion years (meteorites) are pretty cool.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by Jeff Pringle

I have made knives with 50% meteorite, and 100% is certainly doable, but the blade would not hold a very good edge. 70% should look very silver when freshly etched.

Yes it did, the pamor was very silvery/white

[nechesh]

I believe pure nickel as a pamor will also look very silvery and white.
Jeff, correct me if i am wrong, but you seem to be speaking from a modern custom knife making perspective. I certainly do believe that higher percentage meteoric blades are possible to construct, but do you really think this is happening in the keris world?

[Mark]

Purwacarita, Necesh, will you drop it, please? Consider yourselves warned.

Feel free to continue the substance of the discussion, and feel free to continue your personal discussions via PM and e-mail. However, leave out the side comments in your forum posts.

[Jeff Pringle]

Jeff, correct me if i am wrong, but you seem to be speaking from a modern custom knife making perspective. I certainly do believe that higher percentage meteoric blades are possible to construct, but do you really think this is happening in the keris world?

You are correct, I am speaking from a 'custom knife' perspective. However, my methods are rather primitive/'historically informed' shall we say - I'm not using alot of modern improvements to help me. So all I'm saying is, it is possible to get quite a bit of meteorite into a blade, and it's doable with traditional forging methods.
I am definitely NOT well enough informed to say if this is happening in the keris world.
The difficulty of working the material and the romance/coolness factor of meteoric material would lead me to believe that meteorite content would tend to get exagerated and/or invented in most cases, but it also leads me to hope that there are a few traditionally-minded smiths out there working it, too.

[Rick]

I know of at least one .
His work is usually never for sale .

[purwacarita]

Hi Pusaka, I appreciate your reason back up your statement. Whether C is a good eletrical conductor or not... ( deep breath taken ) depends on its instrinsic impedance character towards applied voltage which before the avalanche voltage, the current will be very small and thus considered electrical resistor, but it will be a conductor after avalanche voltage. I saw an interesting scientific show that C was cooled downto 4 deg. Celcius by liquid Nitrogen, it becomed superconductor and resisted surrounding electromagnetic field. It was explained by the expo participants while I saw a floating black Carbon pill rotating above a magnet full of white mist from the Nitrogen. Electrical engineering is not my area and I don't know whether the floating C is pure or not, but above is my back up reason to stay put to say C in keris is insulator because of room temperature ( deep breath taken again ) until more convicing explanations fit my logic. Yet it is hard to connect the mysterious yoni energy with scientific logics.

Hi nechesh, I have nothing against you & didn't send you any PMs. I would have if I had chips on my shoulders. When I bring forth weaknesses in my own community, I never mean to discredit nor to humiliate my own people, but it is the fact which should be admitted before it can be dealt. You know how it feels yourself when people choose to comment about your self rather than your quote. Please understand to comment on my quote rather than my self before count reach 10, you heard the modre ogre.

I can say idealism and I want to consistently live by it, and thus because of that I need to say I'm sorry I've stepped on your toes.

Hi Rick. When really it reaches 10, please feel free to delete this post or omit passage you deem necessary. I'll understand that you'd do what you have to do, and so do I. I hope this post clear up the fog.


~Hing ngarsa sung tuladha, Hing madya mangun karsa, Tut wuri handayani.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by purwacarita

Hi Pusaka, I appreciate your reason back up your statement. Whether C is a good eletrical conductor or not... ( deep breath taken ) depends on its instrinsic impedance character towards applied voltage which before the avalanche voltage, the current will be very small and thus considered electrical resistor, but it will be a conductor after avalanche voltage. I saw an interesting scientific show that C was cooled downto 4 deg. Celcius by liquid Nitrogen, it becomed superconductor and resisted surrounding electromagnetic field. It was explained by the expo participants while I saw a floating black Carbon pill rotating above a magnet full of white mist from the Nitrogen. Electrical engineering is not my area and I don't know whether the floating C is pure or not, but above is my back up reason to stay put to say C in keris is insulator because of room temperature ( deep breath taken again ) until more convicing explanations fit my logic. Yet it is hard to connect the mysterious yoni energy with scientific logics.

Hi nechesh, I have nothing against you & didn't send you any PMs. I would have if I had chips on my shoulders. When I bring forth weaknesses in my own community, I never mean to discredit nor to humiliate my own people, but it is the fact which should be admitted before it can be dealt. You know how it feels yourself when people choose to comment about your self rather than your quote. Please understand to comment on my quote rather than my self before count reach 10, you heard the modre ogre.

I can say idealism and I want to consistently live by it, and thus because of that I need to say I'm sorry I've stepped on your toes.

Hi Rick. When really it reaches 10, please feel free to delete this post or omit passage you deem necessary. I'll understand that you'd do what you have to do, and so do I. I hope this post clear up the fog.


~Hing ngarsa sung tuladha, Hing madya mangun karsa, Tut wuri handayani.

Here's the thing: I honestly have no idea what's going on here. It appears there is some sub-text or another, private conversation going on which casual observers like myself are not privy to.

If so, that's fine. Please keep it private. In other words, stop making cryptic comments on this public board. That goes for everyone, not just Purwacarita.

[Rick]

Well said Andrew .

I had no problems with Purwa's first paragraph ; but the second , personal part does not fit Mark's demand to "drop it" .

Everyone ; speak plainly , in English with no innuendo please .

[Jeff Pringle]

One more thought on e.t. vs. terrestrial material; Meteorites contain more Iridium than earth materials, and you could probably do a spectrographic analysis to detect that material without doing any more damage to the blade than a restoration cleaning.
These days, of course, store-bought Iridium could be incorporated into a blade, but it would probably be as much expense & trouble as using real meteorite and not give you the right trace amount, so I don't see deliberate fakers going down that road.

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I am surprised, even with Boedhi Adhitya`s higher estimate the composition of a typical meteorite pamor keris is 94% Iron, 4% Steel and only 2% meteorite material.
I had always thought that the meteorite content of the pamor would have been several times that quantity.
I was shown a meteorite keris and the seller said it had a pamor made with 70% meteorite content, what do you think, is that even possible????

Considering the absolutely tiny content of meteorite in a meteorite pamor keris I don’t think the high prices for such items is even justified.

Hi Pusaka,
Please remember, the 12 kg. I said are considered as "raw iron". After 'refining process', (wasuh, 'to wash'), that is, to weld iron bar onto itself back and forth, the 'cleaned' iron amount would only as many as 5 kg. or so. The 12 kg are the raw iron materials needed to make what traditionally called 'Tangguh Sedayu', which is believed to have approx. 4096 pamor layers, which is by many experts here in Java, considered as the most-layered keris ever made in Java. Other tangguh may need iron less. Please also remember, all of this information, as I recall, came from Empu Djeno, which may have done some 'research' or experiment on this subject. I believe his father, Supowinangun, did not leave any note, because unfortunatelly, according to Empu Jeno himself, his father was illiterate. There is no exact amount on the materials used in keris making here in Java, everything judged by experience.

I have not read any old and 'credible' traditional notes/script/book about keris which explain the keris making process, and thus, we may only rely on the works of Westerner likes Gronnemen, Jasper&Pirngadie or Garret Solyom. In fact, traditional book likes Serat Centhini, as I recall, didn't write about meteorite as pamor material, while it warn about the 'danger' of 'unproper' pamor pattern. But other traditional books write a lot about the iron and it's 'Tuah' ('magic power'). It also said 'The Steel gives strenght, The Iron gives 'Powers', and The Pamor gives lusters/radiance'. Pamor also called 'Sekaring Braja' (sekar=bunga=flower, braja=weapon/blade). Thus, a keris blade without pamor, which also called 'Pamor Wulung' (wulung=black), exists, but I have never seen a 100% keris blade made of pamor materials. (while never seen is not necessarily didn't exist, I may confidently enough to say, there is no 100% meteorite-made keris blade in Jogjakarta Court's Pusaka Inventories). The reasons behind this 'fact' may be as many as we could imagine, but as Eskimos/Inuit http://www.taiga.net/yourYukon/col168.html and our friend Jeff Pringle shown us, it is possible to make a blade with 100% meteorite materials. If it is condidered as 'very powerful' by Javanese, some King/Sunan/Sultan in Java may commisioned one too But I didn't said that it has no 'power' at all

Yes, pamor material were used to sold in market. Not only the meteorite, but also the 'Luwu' or 'Bugis' pamor. The meteorite ones were said to be more expensive than gold. The Prambanan wasn't an exclusion. While the biggest part was brought to Surakarta court, the small pieces left from it was 'mined' and traded for years. And also, when the Sunan of Surakarta commisioned keris(es), the empus may took the small pieces which was fallen when they cut the meteorite. This practices called 'Ngalap Berkah', and still practised today on virtually any events/ceremonies in both Courts (Surakarta and Jogjakarta).

About 70% meteorite content, well, have the seller do the scientific analysis on the blade? Or was he watching when the empu forged it? Personally, I would very happy to pay more on a good keris with 'pamor wulung' (that is, without pamor) than to buy 'roughtly made' keris with meteoric pamor. I suggest, we should 'make sure' about what we really looking for/expecting from a keris, before we have one (or two, or hundreds ) If we have made our intentions clear, with the help of knowledges, we may found the blade we wish, and may avoid unnecessary disappointment. Just be careful when 'keris fever' come

Best Regards,

Boedhi Adhitya

[nechesh]

Thank you Boedhi Adhitya for reminding everyone that terrestial iron is considered very magickal in keris making, probably as much if not more so than meteorite. In fact, iron is a material that has been considered very powerful and magickal by cultures all around the world for a very long time.
Thanks also for the link to the article on Innuit meteorite blades. Isn't it nice that when Perry discovered the source of their iron that he set out to steal it all.
I did not mean to imply in my earlier response to Pusaka that 70% or even pure meteoric blades were not possible to forge, just that i doubted deeply that you would find such a make-up in a keris. I have seen such blades before, including this marvelous blade below. It is apparently in the hands of Harold Jacobs, an Alaskan native American. He states that it was one of 2 blades made from a fall near Klukwan many generations ago by a man names Khu ch'eesh. It is 27" long.

[VANDOO]

THE PERCENTAGE OF METEORITE IN A BLADE SHOULD NOT HAVE A LARGE EFFECT ON THE MAGICAL POWER OF THE WEAPON. THE SOURCE OF THE METEORITE WOULD , FOR INSTANCE IN INDONESIA A BLADE WITH SOME OF THE SAME METEORITE USED BY THE ROYAL COURT IN THE OLD DAYS WOULD BE CONSIDERED MORE POWERFUL AND DESIRABLE THAN SPECIMINS FROM AFRICA OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY. A MAGICAL TAILSMAN NEED NOT BE LARGE TO HAVE POWER AS THE POWER IS IN THE BELIEF, FAITH AND RESPECT OF THE OWNER. MAGIC IS NOT LIKE MAKEING 10000 GALLONS OF CHICKEN SOUP WITH ONLY ONE SMALL CHICKEN AND WATER ,MAGIC ISN'T DILUTED AND DOSEN'T LOSE ITS STRENGTH AS LONG IS THE BELIEF IS STILL THERE.

IF I WERE WANTING TO MAKE A LOT OF MAGICAL KERIS I WOULD GATHER UP SOME SCRAP OF OLD KERIS, SEVERAL METEORS AND A LOT OF IRON. I WOULD THEN PICK A TIME OF THE YEAR CONSIDERED TO BE STEEPED IN MAGIC PERHAPS THE SOLSTICE. THEN TAKE THIS TO A SPOT OF POWER ON THE EARTH THE NEAREST ONE I KNOW OF TO ME IS ENCHANTED ROCK IN TEXAS. IT IS THE THIRD LARGEST MONOLITH ON EARTH, AYERS ROCK IS LARGEST, STONE MOUNTAIN NEAR ATLANTA IS SECOND. I WOULD WATCH THE WEATHER FOR A FORECAST OF A GOOD STRONG STORM AND THEN TAKE THE MATERIALS TO THE TOP AND PUT UP A LIGHTNING ROD IN THE CENTER OF IT AND WHEN A BIG STORM CAME THRU IT WOULD RECEIVE MULTIPLE STRIKES. THAT SHOULD CHARGE UP THE METALS IF ANYTHING COULD, AND THEN TAKE IT COMBINE IT AND MAKE AS MANY KERIS BLADES AS POSSIBLE FROM IT OR PERHAPS HAVE A NOTED PANDAY MAKE THEM WITH THE PROPER RITUALS. TO GET LIGHTENING CHARGED IRON WITHOUT THE TROUBBLE USE OLD LIGHTNING RODS IN THE MIX, SOME OFF THE EMPIRE STATE BUILDING WOULD BE COOL IF THEY ARE EVER REPLACED.

A CHEAP EASY WAY TO MAKE ALL YOUR EDGED WEAPONS METEORITE POWERED, TAKE A METEORITE AND RUB IT GENTLY ALONG THE BLADE TRANSFERING A LITTLE CHARGE AND A FEW MOLECULES TO THE BLADE.

I DON'T PERSONALLY BELIEVE IN MYSTICISM OR MAGIC BUT DO UNDERSTAND WHY SOME DO. THERE ARE MANY FORCES AND THINGS HERE THAT WE DON'T HAVE THE SENSES TO DETECT AND MUCH MORE THAT WE JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND SO I GUESS I AM STILL A BIT TRIBAL.

[BSMStar]

Gee, have I been asleep at the wheel...

It is possible to determine if there is a meteoritic content with a minimally destructive test. The issue is finding an Electron Microprobe... The surface must have a very small area polished (that is the destructiveness of the test). The Electron Microprobe will determine what elements are available. Earth surface rocks do not have the same availability of trace elements as meteorites. The trace elements are the fingerprint used to identify cosmic materials. Therefore, even if there is only one percent meteoritic material in the metal, it is still possible to tell if meteoritic material is present or not.

If there is only a small percentage of meteoritic material in a Keris, then looking at Ni content alone will not be an indicator of cosmic origin since the majority of Ni is not from the meteorite itself. Therefore, short of testing, there really is no way to know if a Keris has meteoritic material in it.

Great article Rick!

[VANDOO]

HERE ARE 3 EXAMPLES OF KNIVES WHERE THE BLADES ARE MADE FROM A SLAB OF NATURAL UNFORGED METEORITE. THEY ARE JUST SHAPED AND POLISHED MECHANICALY. TWO ARE FROM THE GIBEON METEORITE AND PART OF THE OUTER SURFACE OF THE METEORITE WAS LAFT NATURAL UNWORKED OR POLISHED. I HAVE NO IDEA HOW THIS TYPE OF BLADE WOULD HOLD UP, BRITTLE, NOT TAKEING OR HOLDING A GOOD EDGE
AT ANY RATE THIS DOES SHOW METEORITES COULD HAVE BEEN WORKED USING PRIMATIVE METHODS SO A OLD UNFORGED METEORITE BLADE IS NOT OUT OF THE QUESTION.

[VANDOO]

I JUST RAN ACROSS A CURRENT ARTICLE ON ONE OF THE DAGGERS FOUND IN KING TUTS TOMB. THEY ARE SAYING THE IRON BLADE IS LIKELY MADE FROM A IRON NICKEL METEORITE. A PICTURE OF THE DAGGER.

[Bob A]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I JUST RAN ACROSS A CURRENT ARTICLE ON ONE OF THE DAGGERS FOUND IN KING TUTS TOMB. THEY ARE SAYING THE IRON BLADE IS LIKELY MADE FROM A IRON NICKEL METEORITE. A PICTURE OF THE DAGGER.

A link to above:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...aps.12664/full

I was surprised that the authors of the paper seemed unaware of the use of meteoric iron in the Indonesian culture.

[David]

Originally Posted by Bob A

A link to above:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...aps.12664/full

I was surprised that the authors of the paper seemed unaware of the use of meteoric iron in the Indonesian culture.

I don't think it is so much a matter of being unaware of meteoric use in Indonesia as much as that their focus is more on the use of that material by ancient peoples.
The remarkable thing about this dagger is that it was created at least a century before the acknowledged start of the Iron Age and many centuries before edged weapons were commonly made of iron.

[Battara]

Just a note: most of the "meteorite" blades claimed by dealers are not meteorite but laminated local steels.