A tiny cannon for ID and coments - Page 2

fernando · 20th July 2008, 12:56 AM

Much obliged for your comprehensive input, Wayne.
This gives me some self confidence, in my endeavour to change the type of stand for the piece. I started by making a square base, to put it upright, after the signal cannon assumption. I am now rehearsing a rectangular base with two forks, to relate its position to the later commonly agreed hand cannon posture.
... but i will not through away the first version ... just in case

Fernando

kronckew · 20th July 2008, 07:30 AM

in the absence of direct evidence we can only go on opinions and assumptions, and can never be 100% sure. the lack of a base, like fatter mug signal cannons, and the size and the banding evidence suggesting it was strapped to a stock of some sort pushed the preponderance of the evidence in my mind. the signal cannon found in an old wreck that were similar in appearance also look larger and fatter in relation to their length, supporting a vertical use for them as opposed to yours, which would be more unstable set on end; something not desirable in a maritime usage...in either case this appears to be a rare and unusual addition to your collection. thanks for sharing it with us.

BBJW · 21st July 2008, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Now you caught me, BBJW

I feel a bit dizzy with this sudden turning back to square one

.
You mean you don't find consistence in the aproach made by the guy from Traditional Muzzleloading Forum ? (my post #24). Also the example shown by Gene in post #12, plus the fact that this particularly cilindrical barrel doesn't have a wider base to sustain it upright, as usually seen in signal cannons (thunder mugs and so), made me (and others) think this was a hand cannon (or mortar).
But of course this issue is still open for further coments and new evidence.
Could you BBJW, extend a bit your point of view ? Are you familiar with some of these things?
Thanks a lot.
Fernando

I have seen very similar ones for sale in old auction catalogs and Flayderman and Co. catalogs as signal mortars. At this point you could call it whatever you wanted to. If I have time to dig thru old catalogs and find a scanner before I go out of town I will post them.
Cheers
bbjw

fernando · 21st July 2008, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBJW

...If I have time to dig thru old catalogs and find a scanner before I go out of town I will post them.
Cheers
bbjw

That would be great, thanks.
Fernando

fernando · 26th July 2008, 07:05 PM

This is the replica of a XIV century hand cannon at the Lisbon Military Museum ... where pictures are not allowed

The barrel has 27 cms. and is made of hot welded staves. The whole thing, barrel and pole, measures 1,24 mts.
The tag doesn't mention its caliber, but we can see it's quite a large one, close from my example, i would say. Also the touch hole is quite significant in size, meaning that after some shooting and degradation could well become as large as the one in my specimen.
The legend in the tag confirms that these things were handled by two men; one holding the pole under the arm and pointing the barrel mouth to the enemy lines and the "bota-fogo" (an expression that became legendary), a guy with the slow match, to detonate the device. Also as already aproached here, the accuracy of the shot was very limited, but the psichologic efect of the noise, the black smoke shadow and the smell of burnt sulphur, provoked in the spirit of medieval man the conviction that he was in the presence of devil's work.
Fernando

katana · 26th July 2008, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

This is the replica of a XIV century hand cannon at the Lisbon Military Museum ... where pictures are not allowed

Fernando

May I assume that you took the pictures

Naughty boy

Thats an nice example Fernando

I would forget your display stands that you showed earlier. I would get a 'stock' made for it, it'll look great. But, then I'm biased....I'd rather 'see' this cannon as a weapon....than a signalling device.

Regards David

Atlantia · 26th July 2008, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

May I assume that you took the pictures

Naughty boy

Thats an nice example Fernando

I would forget your display stands that you showed earlier. I would get a 'stock' made for it, it'll look great. But, then I'm biased....I'd rather 'see' this cannon as a weapon....than a signalling device.

Regards David

Couldn't agree more David,
Stock and bands are a must!

Gene

fernando · 9th August 2008, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Couldn't agree more David,
Stock and bands are a must!

Gene

Is that so, Gene ?

Look what i managed

Fernando

.

katana · 9th August 2008, 09:40 AM

BRAVO FERNANDO

Regards David

Atlantia · 9th August 2008, 11:35 AM

WOW!
Fernando. That looks just fantastic!
You must be very pleased with it? How long did it take you?
It's prefect, just right!
Congratulations.
Gene

Norman McCormick · 9th August 2008, 01:02 PM

Hi Fernando,
I see you're all set for the 'Glorious Twelfth', a brace or two should be no problem with that bore!!!

My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 9th August 2008, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

BRAVO FERNANDO

Regards David

THANK YOU DAVID

Fernando

fernando · 9th August 2008, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

WOW!
Fernando. That looks just fantastic!
You must be very pleased with it? How long did it take you?
It's prefect, just right!
Congratulations.
Gene

Thank you so much Gene, but i'm not that Gene-ious

A one handed guy with a couple undecent tools could never make such a decent job

.
The carpenter, after i showed him a drawing and measures, must have taken less than two hours to turn the pole in mahogany, drill the ( barrel ) hole and cut it in half section.
Then i had to carve the half hole, here and there, to fit in the irregular barrel.
Back to the carpenter, to thin down the lower and side parts of the pole in its first half; it looked too bulky and perfect from the lathe, and this way it looks mor rustic. He used the vertical saw, to get an unfinished look.
Then three hours at the smith. I showed him a picture and had him to cut two strips of "black" iron, and beat them hard with a ball hammer, before bending them for the bands. The bands were fixed with screws, which had their heads cut off and criss crossed with a small grinder, to resemble rustic rivets. Then i told him to use a drop of sulphuric acid to darken the new heads.
Coming back home, i darkened the pole two hands of old fashioned vieux-chaine and covered it with liquid acid.
18 Euros for the carpenter, 30 Euros for the smith.
After all, the part that took longer was the carving of slight parts of the barrel bed, to fit it correctly, as i didn't have the correct means (and know how) to do it.
Now my whife is constraining for the adding of one more thing to the leaving/dinning room decoration; but she is brave ... she will stand it.
Fernando

fernando · 10th August 2008, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Fernando,
I see you're all set for the 'Glorious Twelfth', a brace or two should be no problem with that bore!!!

My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman
I don't know about your "Glorious Twelfth"; but i can say that, in our "Game Opening" day, the majority of the shooters are a greater bore than that of my piece

.

All the best
Fernando

Norman McCormick · 12th August 2008, 07:56 PM

Hi Fernando,
So true, so true, I suspect it's the same the world over.
My Regards,
Norman.

M ELEY · 13th August 2008, 05:00 AM

Speaking of cannons, I missed out on this one the other week. Check out eBay item #170241460432. Seller said 1900? I'd say earlier, perhaps early 19th? What say you folks? Is this a signal cannon, small mortar, hand cannon, coehorn or ?

M ELEY · 13th August 2008, 08:42 PM

Any takers? I did notice this was a "private auction" with hidden buyers. I don't know much about these types of auctions, but I'm told they can be a little shady. Too bad, seems like an interesting piece...

fernando · 13th August 2008, 10:51 PM

Hi Mark
Such a pitty you didn't get it; very serious stuff ... so it looks.
Rather reinforced barrel, wide ( or worn) touch hole, large caliber ... meaning XIX century or even prior ? Not old enough to de considered a hand cannon, though ?
Also not a coehorn mortar ... It would need trunnions placed low, by the breech, for the rotation, right ?
It has a cascable, though ... was it moveable ?
I'm glad there are no experts around, to shut me up

.
Fernando

kronckew · 13th August 2008, 11:15 PM

no trunnions, so likely not an aimable mortar or cannon, may have been strapped to a carriage of some sort, too big & too recent for a hand cannon. too short for much. s缠mall cannon were used for line throwing but would have had trunnions . small rail mounted anti-personnel cannon would have had trunnions to mount it on a swivel. my guess is a signal cannon for a larger ship.

coehorn mortar, trunnions on base

small swivel gun, trunnions again

this small late 18c - early 19c howitzer is close, but has trunnions again.

lyle gun (line throwing)

trunnions again - this is a big lyle.

more traditional brass one in high polish

here's the whole gubbins with the coast guard crew to service it.

aha! a trunnion-less one mounted on a fixed base!

this is a signal gun used to start yacht races

note that 19-20c cannon of this type would have a lanyard operated percussion firing device threaded into it rather than a touch hole. removal would leave a larger hole than we'd expect for one fired by a slow match.

one for a lyle gun

M ELEY · 14th August 2008, 04:24 AM

Thanks for responding, guys. Fernando, you sound like you're closer to expert than you let on!

Your comments are right on and that I didn't have the funds to get this cannon before the auction ended (got a nice boarding axe instead, though!)

Kronckew, thanks for posting all of these pics of some pretty cool cannons. That trunnion-less one in particular is interesting to see, as most either had them or were the older signal-types. I had never seen one without them until you posted this pic. I had thought deck gun, but of course they were all swivels, so your argument stands. Yes, in the early/mid-19th century, they started using a percussion firing system on deck cannons, ship signallers, and even on some swivel guns. I guess it was a lot easier than trying to use the old lit fuse.

katana · 14th August 2008, 01:28 PM

Hi,
I am beginning to think that the 'Austrian cannon' may have been cut down, below the trunnions. If you look at this picture there seems to be some machined surfaces, the deep pit looks like a 'casting flaw'. Perhaps the pitted face is evidence of an original fracture cause by stress....and then was cut at that point ???

The other picture is another cannon of unusual form

Regards David

fernando · 14th August 2008, 02:26 PM

What a bombastic proposition, David ... and quite a plausible one

. That would solve the riddle and make the piece look more rational

.
Then who ever made the job, must have also grinded the muzzle rim into that slightly conical shape; the other remaining "rings" have a paralel section ... if i make myself understood ... and if i'm not talking nonsense

.
Fernando

kronckew · 14th August 2008, 02:31 PM

Where's the KABOOM? there was supposed to be an earth shattering KABOOM!

(sorry, the devil made me do it!)

anyway, that looks very plausible, those marks look very much like it's been sawn & ground a bit - hadn't noticed them earlier. nasty inclusion woulda blown anyways at some point...

fernando · 14th August 2008, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

...
The other picture is another cannon of unusual form

.

Beautyful "cradle". I saw a similar one with those staves, the other day, at the Lisbon Military Museum. Very old stuff ... XV-XVI century?
Fernando

M ELEY · 14th August 2008, 10:41 PM

Thanks, David. I think you've got a very good point there. I still always seem to forget about cutting down weapons, as so many have been over the centuries. So it seems the Austrian cannon might have started life as a real mortar-type and in its working life, been cut down to more of a signal type. Interesting, still would have looked good in my collection next to the Brazilian pirate cutlass

M ELEY · 15th August 2008, 10:18 PM

Another interesting cannon ended "early" on ebay -170248710723. Question is, is it authentic. Says in description touch hole is sealed? Rusted shut? Or maybe a cannon that was never finished for firing? Repro artificially aged? Opinions?

fernando · 15th August 2008, 10:53 PM

Amazing; you could either choose "16 century", "old" or "vintage"

.
Isn't that a knock off ?
Fernando

M ELEY · 16th August 2008, 05:37 AM

Yeah, I'm leaning more toward "knockoff", the more I look at it.

Evgeny_K · 12th November 2013, 07:12 PM

What do you think about this cannon ?

fernando · 13th November 2013, 03:31 PM

A very nice piece indeed. Surely a (signal) mortar and not a (hand) cannon , judging by its base and touchhole 'lip', both indicating this is a vertical firing device.
I wouldn't guess its age, due to my little knowledge but, it must be an ancient example, due to its overall look and specially the marks, which are often seen in old swords ... 16-17th century ?

20th July 2008, 12:56 AM	#31
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Much obliged for your comprehensive input, Wayne. This gives me some self confidence, in my endeavour to change the type of stand for the piece. I started by making a square base, to put it upright, after the signal cannon assumption. I am now rehearsing a rectangular base with two forks, to relate its position to the later commonly agreed hand cannon posture. ... but i will not through away the first version ... just in case Fernando Attached Images

26th July 2008, 07:05 PM	#35
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	This is the replica of a XIV century hand cannon at the Lisbon Military Museum ... where pictures are not allowed The barrel has 27 cms. and is made of hot welded staves. The whole thing, barrel and pole, measures 1,24 mts. The tag doesn't mention its caliber, but we can see it's quite a large one, close from my example, i would say. Also the touch hole is quite significant in size, meaning that after some shooting and degradation could well become as large as the one in my specimen. The legend in the tag confirms that these things were handled by two men; one holding the pole under the arm and pointing the barrel mouth to the enemy lines and the "bota-fogo" (an expression that became legendary), a guy with the slow match, to detonate the device. Also as already aproached here, the accuracy of the shot was very limited, but the psichologic efect of the noise, the black smoke shadow and the smell of burnt sulphur, provoked in the spirit of medieval man the conviction that he was in the presence of devil's work. Fernando Attached Images

13th August 2008, 05:00 AM	#46
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Speaking of cannons, I missed out on this one the other week. Check out eBay item #170241460432. Seller said 1900? I'd say earlier, perhaps early 19th? What say you folks? Is this a signal cannon, small mortar, hand cannon, coehorn or ? Last edited by M ELEY; 13th August 2008 at 08:40 PM. Reason: spelling!

13th August 2008, 11:15 PM	#49
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,182	no trunnions, so likely not an aimable mortar or cannon, may have been strapped to a carriage of some sort, too big & too recent for a hand cannon. too short for much. s缠mall cannon were used for line throwing but would have had trunnions . small rail mounted anti-personnel cannon would have had trunnions to mount it on a swivel. my guess is a signal cannon for a larger ship. coehorn mortar, trunnions on base small swivel gun, trunnions again this small late 18c - early 19c howitzer is close, but has trunnions again. lyle gun (line throwing) trunnions again - this is a big lyle. more traditional brass one in high polish here's the whole gubbins with the coast guard crew to service it. aha! a trunnion-less one mounted on a fixed base! this is a signal gun used to start yacht races note that 19-20c cannon of this type would have a lanyard operated percussion firing device threaded into it rather than a touch hole. removal would leave a larger hole than we'd expect for one fired by a slow match. one for a lyle gun Last edited by kronckew; 13th August 2008 at 11:53 PM.

14th August 2008, 01:28 PM	#51
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi, I am beginning to think that the 'Austrian cannon' may have been cut down, below the trunnions. If you look at this picture there seems to be some machined surfaces, the deep pit looks like a 'casting flaw'. Perhaps the pitted face is evidence of an original fracture cause by stress....and then was cut at that point ??? The other picture is another cannon of unusual form Regards David Attached Images

20th July 2008, 07:30 AM	#32
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,182	in the absence of direct evidence we can only go on opinions and assumptions, and can never be 100% sure. the lack of a base, like fatter mug signal cannons, and the size and the banding evidence suggesting it was strapped to a stock of some sort pushed the preponderance of the evidence in my mind. the signal cannon found in an old wreck that were similar in appearance also look larger and fatter in relation to their length, supporting a vertical use for them as opposed to yours, which would be more unstable set on end; something not desirable in a maritime usage...in either case this appears to be a rare and unusual addition to your collection. thanks for sharing it with us.

9th August 2008, 09:40 AM	#39
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	BRAVO FERNANDO Regards David

9th August 2008, 11:35 AM	#40
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	WOW! Fernando. That looks just fantastic! You must be very pleased with it? How long did it take you? It's prefect, just right! Congratulations. Gene

9th August 2008, 01:02 PM	#41
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi Fernando, I see you're all set for the 'Glorious Twelfth', a brace or two should be no problem with that bore!!! My Regards, Norman.

12th August 2008, 07:56 PM	#45
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi Fernando, So true, so true, I suspect it's the same the world over. My Regards, Norman.

13th August 2008, 08:42 PM	#47
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Any takers? I did notice this was a "private auction" with hidden buyers. I don't know much about these types of auctions, but I'm told they can be a little shady. Too bad, seems like an interesting piece...

13th August 2008, 10:51 PM	#48
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Mark Such a pitty you didn't get it; very serious stuff ... so it looks. Rather reinforced barrel, wide ( or worn) touch hole, large caliber ... meaning XIX century or even prior ? Not old enough to de considered a hand cannon, though ? Also not a coehorn mortar ... It would need trunnions placed low, by the breech, for the rotation, right ? It has a cascable, though ... was it moveable ? I'm glad there are no experts around, to shut me up . Fernando

14th August 2008, 04:24 AM	#50
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Thanks for responding, guys. Fernando, you sound like you're closer to expert than you let on! Your comments are right on and that I didn't have the funds to get this cannon before the auction ended (got a nice boarding axe instead, though!) Kronckew, thanks for posting all of these pics of some pretty cool cannons. That trunnion-less one in particular is interesting to see, as most either had them or were the older signal-types. I had never seen one without them until you posted this pic. I had thought deck gun, but of course they were all swivels, so your argument stands. Yes, in the early/mid-19th century, they started using a percussion firing system on deck cannons, ship signallers, and even on some swivel guns. I guess it was a lot easier than trying to use the old lit fuse.

14th August 2008, 02:26 PM	#52
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	What a bombastic proposition, David ... and quite a plausible one . That would solve the riddle and make the piece look more rational . Then who ever made the job, must have also grinded the muzzle rim into that slightly conical shape; the other remaining "rings" have a paralel section ... if i make myself understood ... and if i'm not talking nonsense . Fernando Attached Images

14th August 2008, 02:31 PM	#53
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,182	Where's the KABOOM? there was supposed to be an earth shattering KABOOM! (sorry, the devil made me do it!) anyway, that looks very plausible, those marks look very much like it's been sawn & ground a bit - hadn't noticed them earlier. nasty inclusion woulda blown anyways at some point...

14th August 2008, 10:41 PM	#55
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Thanks, David. I think you've got a very good point there. I still always seem to forget about cutting down weapons, as so many have been over the centuries. So it seems the Austrian cannon might have started life as a real mortar-type and in its working life, been cut down to more of a signal type. Interesting, still would have looked good in my collection next to the Brazilian pirate cutlass

15th August 2008, 10:18 PM	#56
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Another interesting cannon ended "early" on ebay -170248710723. Question is, is it authentic. Says in description touch hole is sealed? Rusted shut? Or maybe a cannon that was never finished for firing? Repro artificially aged? Opinions?

15th August 2008, 10:53 PM	#57
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Amazing; you could either choose "16 century", "old" or "vintage" . Isn't that a knock off ? Fernando

16th August 2008, 05:37 AM	#58
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Yeah, I'm leaning more toward "knockoff", the more I look at it.

12th November 2013, 07:12 PM	#59
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 208	What do you think about this cannon ? Attached Images

13th November 2013, 03:31 PM	#60
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A very nice piece indeed. Surely a (signal) mortar and not a (hand) cannon , judging by its base and touchhole 'lip', both indicating this is a vertical firing device. I wouldn't guess its age, due to my little knowledge but, it must be an ancient example, due to its overall look and specially the marks, which are often seen in old swords ... 16-17th century ?