Tombak Opinions Wanted

[Tim Simmons]

I felt urged into this, it is a live experiment. The handle does not want come off and I am not going to pull it off. Now I have started I think I should go all the way, with guidance I hope . I hope my pictures will be good enough.

I can already see that the blade is quite old and more pitted than I thought. The juice does seem to be reacting and making darker looking areas. If I wipe off the juice, it is at the moment a little more difficult to see the pamor/forging. However when I inspect the blade with a glass I think more interesting patterns are being revealed. I will carry on for a day or two, then come back with more pictures and attempt staining.

[A. G. Maisey]

Henk, I apologise if this may seem to be a silly question, but do you think you could define for me exactly what you consider "pamor" to be?

Thank you.

Tim Simmons, you will find that gentle heat at the blade base , just in front of the metuk, will allow you free the handle. Use aluminium jaws, or wood blocks, in a vice, gently heat the blade base---you use a small kerosene lamp, or a candle, or if you have a delicate touch, a propane torch---twist and pull the handle, it will come free. To clean and stain this blade properly you must remove the handle. You cannot do the job properly with the handle still in place, and you will finish up damaging the handle.

Repeated application of the cleaning agent without soaking will clean a blade, but it will take a very, very long time to get an acceptable result.

[Tim Simmons]

This is the state of the blade right now. With a loop I can see there are still some lumps to come off.

The handle? On inspection this has been in place some time, there are signs of threads or cloth at the join. How much of a can of worms will taking the handle off be? how to put it back? with what?

Am I just telling myself there are patterns emerging in this blade? poor pictures but you people know more what you are looking at. Is it worth continuing or shall I stop now?

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, it looks like you might have some pamor there.

Now you`ve started there is no question of stopping. You now continue through to perfection.

The little hard bits of rust can be dug out with something like saddlers awl. Dig and soak, dig and soak. Hard old rust can take a long time to get rid of, but it is necessary.

Looking at that blade before you started, I reckon it would have taken me about a week to ten days to get it clean using a pineapple juice soak.

I feel that this handle has not been in place for more than perhaps 30-40 years at the outside. In keris terms, only yesterday. A bit of rust may have built up through the cloth and be causing it to stick a bit, but the heat trick will allow you to move it. Its just a gently-gently, patience-patience thing. Heat it, twist the handle back and forth at the same time pulling---doesn`t want let go? Let it cool right down, and repeat----and repeat and repeat until it comes loose.

There`s no can of worms involved. What you`ve got is a simple pressure fit. Even if you discover something a little unfortunate like rotten tang that has been bodgied up with araldite or something, its no big deal, getting the handle off will give you the opportunity to repair it properly. Everything is fixable.

When you put the handle back you use knitting wool to give a pressure fit.

Its all easy Tim. Just take gently and slowly.

[Tim Simmons]

Easy, handle off. I can even reuse the piece of cloth. Now for a long bath in pineapple juice. I hope the staining materials are cheap and easy to get hold of. Back in a few days, stay tuned in .

[Henk]

Tim,

If you continue to use lemon juice you can soak the blade in the juice and scrub the blade with the lemon a few times a day. Works excellent with keris to get them clean before the etching with warangan. I don't do it myself but I've seen how it is done.

A. G. Maisey,

At school where I work we use to say, you never can ask a silly question because questions are not silly, you only can get a silly answer.

Pamor is the contrast between the iron and the nickle after etching with the warangang. The black iron and the white lines of the nickle. The lines you see on the blade made by forging is not the pamor. As I wrote above, I saw how a keris was etched with warangan. When I looked at the blade I saw the lines of forging on the white blade, just the metal color as Tim's tombak. According to these lines I thought the pamor would be of an adeg type. I told that to the guy who did the etching and he replied "just watch and get surprised" When the warangan was brought up, the pamor raised and the iron colored black. Result: pamor beras wutah with those fanciful spots and circlelike lines. I couldn't discover a single adeg pamor line on the blade.

[A. G. Maisey]

Glad you are progressing with this, Tim.
If you go ahead with the pineapple juice, be sure to check the blade and give it a brushing with a hard toothbrush, under running water, morning and evening. You may well find that as the cleaning progresses you will reach a stage where the blade is clean, and the pattern can be seen well enough so that you do not need to go all the way with the arsenic. This is an old blade, and I have often seen this reaction from an old blade.

Thanks for your response, Henk.
I raised the question because I had already said that weld joints can sometimes mislead somebody into believing that there is pamor present in a blade when in fact there is not.
Even weathered wrought iron can sometimes show lines that could mislead into believing that one is looking at something that carries pamor, or has been pattern welded. However, you seemed to be quite certain that the presence of lines indicated pamor, so I asked myself if possibly you may have had a different understanding of the nature of pamor to my own understanding of it. I could not see anything indicating either pamor, or weld joints in Tim`s original picture, so I guess you either have a better screen, or better eyes than I do.

There has been quite a lot written on pamor. Perhaps the most valuable investigations have been carried out by Piaskowski and Bronson. The word pamor comes from the Javanese "blend or alloy", and pamor in the sense it is used for wesi aji need not contain nickel, nor does it need to be stained for it to exist. Old Javanese pamor in wesi aji actually obtains its contrast by the combining of high and low phosphorus irons. Pamor that is virtually without contrast can also be encountered, and this is referred to as "pamor sanak", "sanak" meaning "related", and indicating that the pamor has been produced from related material.

[Tim Simmons]

look at this now, hard to believe it is the same blade.
It has no patina and although interesting rather harsh. I do not know how I feel about this .
One side appears more patterned but this may change with staining. As it is now apart from the silver coloured patterns there seems three shades in the metal. I am glad this blade was no bigger, picking with a x10 loop and a dental probe is not the best way to pass time.
I am at you keris fans mercy where do I go from here? how long does the stain affect last?

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

the metuk---this will be found to be mechanically attached, not forged as one with the blade--- the metuk could possibly fit a couple of classifications, but it seems to combine characteristics from at least two different classifications, possibly three. It might be Javanese, but without it in my hand, I`m not prepared to say. Look, this is not a top level, court quality tombak:- its a nice old fairly middle of the road example.

I hate busting in the middle here....

Can anyone explain if the metuk being attached or forged as one piece has anything to do with the age or quality of the tombak? Thanks.

[Henk]

Good job Tim!!

The staining can be preserved by oiling the blade. It will hold for years when you oil the blade from time to time.

[Tim Simmons]

Is that it then? Just oil it once in a while. I thought there was a special staining yet to do.

[Rick]

Oiling would be good unless you want to play with *arsenic* .

* which reminds me of an old joke about how the Barber killed his Wife with a rusty razor ...










/are you reading this Jose ?

[A. G. Maisey]

Tim, this blade is well on the way to being clean, but it is not yet clean enough to stain.

Every bit of rust must be removed.

If you go ahead and stain in this half clean condition you may not get a satisfactory finish.

A 10X loupe is too high a magnification for the job of picking out the rust from the pits. I suggest you try a 2.5X, or 3X, machinists loupe. I find I can work with one of these for very extended periods. Another way to go is an illuminated magnifier, or a pair of magnifying glasses.

You can also attack those tiny remaining bits of rust with hydrochloric acid. Just a drop at a time, and wait while it works, then wash off, and possibly kill it. If you use the hydrochloric, follow with another day or so in the pineapple juice.

Do not be in a hurry to get this job done.

Seven to ten days in pineapple juice is about usual for a blade in the condition your blade was in before you started.

I once spent over six months, working most week nights for an hour or so at picking the rust out of the pits in a Bali blade. If you want a job you can be proud of, you must work slowly and carefully.

When you do get this blade clean, and if you decide to go ahead with the arsenic stain, give it a really good polish with steel wool and a powder sink cleaner before you start. The blade must be white before you commence to stain.

Regarding the metuk.
As a generality, a lower quality tombak will have a metuk that is forged as a part of the blade, not a separately made and mechanically attached metuk. A village quality metuk will nearly always have this type of one piece construction, or sometimes with no metuk at all.
It is not necessarily related to age, although most recently made tombak do seem to have the integral metuk.
Note that I am talking in generalities. It is entirely possible for an old, good quality tombak to have an integral metuk, however, this is rare.

[Tim Simmons]

Listen to me talking like an expert . If I remember correctly from my old metalwork days, I was always told to keep the iron tongs out of the pickle as iron slowly neutralises the acid. Each day of the cleaning of this blade I changed the juice. I dare say one could take this further, but for the time being I am happy the way it is now. My conclusion on all this is that, as this sort of treatment is accepted and indeed expected in the objects cultural origins, it is okay to do so but to fiddle like this with old blades just because they are "East Asian" might make you a vandal!!!

[A. G. Maisey]

Tim, its your blade, and if you are happy with it as it is, please forgive me my previous comments.

Changing the pineapple juice every day is unnecessary. I use the same juice from day one to day ten. In warm weather you can get some very interesting cultures on the surface of the juice. I have sometimes wondered if they might get up and walk away overnight.

I`m sorry, but I do not understand your "vandal" remark.

Can you elucidate?

[Tim Simmons]

If I carry on where do you get the staining substance that contains the arsenic and how is it used?

I only say vandal as a sweeping gibe at inappropriate care for antique objects, cleaning, polishing etc.

[A. G. Maisey]

Tim, what you need to continue with staining is laboratory quality white arsenic,ie: arsenic trioxide.The manner in which to use it is buried somewhere on this Forum, perhaps somebody else may be able to assist you with this, or, if you care to email me I will send the instructions to you.

I have no idea what the restrictions applying to this substance are in UK. I am located in Australia, and here it is necessary to be HAZCHEM certificated, and demonstrate need to use the substance.You would need to make your own enquiries relevant to the place in which you live.

Thank you for your clarification of the vandal remark.
Yes, it is very easy to take the wrong track on antiques restoration or conservation.However, in the case of items of wesi aji, correctly cleaning and staining these items is not only appropriate, but requisite.

If you have followed my instructions, you are not in any way behaving like a vandal. I have recieved training in this art from a gentleman who thirty years ago was entrusted with the care of the Jogjakarta Kraton pusakas, I have recieved training from Empu Suparman Supawijaya, and I have recieved training from Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, additionally, I have more than forty years experience in the staining of blades, and have trained conservators at museums in this art. If you follow my instructions you will be behaving in an entirely appropriate manner.

[Tim Simmons]

I think I would certainly have problems getting arsenic. I will look into it. There must be some other proprietary product that contains enough arsenic?

[A. G. Maisey]

Realgar is a mineral that is available to mineral collectors. Some people have mentioned this as being the true "warangan" that we use in Jawa.

I know nothing about it and have never used it. Two people who I know who have tried it have both had no success in using it.

Ferric chloride which is available as a circuit board etchant, and is used by custom knife makers to etch damascus steel will give you a result. It will not give you the correct result, but it is easy, and better than nothing.

Industrial arsenic is not an option. It must be laboratory quality.

[Tim Simmons]

Has anyone tried sulphur base patination agents to stain steel black?

[A. G. Maisey]

Fifty or so years ago I tried a Malay method reported by an Englishman in the 19th century, that used rice water, sulphur and possibly something else. It worked OK, but I only tried it once or twice.

If you wish I will locate the book and pass it on. Might take me a few days.

[Tim Simmons]

That would be very interesting. I have plenty of sulphur based products. If I was to try with sulphur presumably I can soak in juice again if I do not like the results. The sulphur based products can be used at various temperatures so some trial and error would have to be expected.

[Henk]

Tim.

I did a test with an old and worthless kerisblade at school with sulphuric acid. The chemistry teacher thought it was a nice experiment and was glad to help me with the stuff. She used a concentration lower than the acid in a car battery to control the process better. It worked, the pamor raised but the iron turned more greyish. Maybe if a stronger concentration was used the iron might turned darker, but in my opinion although it was fun to see the result nothing beats the result of the arsenic.

[Tim Simmons]

Perhaps the solution should have been heated. In my work the colouring of metals {precious metals mainly} is quite common. I have a sulphur based solution for the colouring of silver and bronze which I will try. I can get other colouring solutions. I will have to soak the blade agian as I have already oiled it. I will post the results.

[Rick]

Would that be Liver of Sulphur Tim ?

[Tim Simmons]

Gosh Rick that is a bit technical I should think it is something like that, only specially formulated. I will try this one at different temperatures, and on a price check I might try others. It is usually only the odd job that makes you get these things.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Gosh Rick that is a bit technical I should think it is something like that, only specially formulated. I will try this one at different temperatures, and on a price check I might try others. It is usually only the odd job that makes you get these things.

Just wondering 'cause my jeweler gave me a small can of chunks of some form of sulphur that he said he used to patinate silver and other metals .
The label said Liver of Sulphur ; I tried it on steel many years ago ; I know it darkened it but I can't remember whether it was grey , black or brown .

I think I'll save the rest for my neighbor's swimming pool when it gets noisy late at night .< evil grin >

[HartCone]

hi all

its many spear in java, one of them called dapur biring, if have an inside curved each edges usualy called biring wadon, if have stright shape called biring lanang..

the picture that thread starter post, might be tombak biring lanang...


regards