unusual keris - Page 2

David · 24th January 2017, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by satsujinken

too bad we live so far apart ... I am dreaming of a gathering in a room with coffee and lots of blades :P

I support that dream!

mariusgmioc · 24th January 2017, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by satsujinken

the funny thing is the blade is light but not that spongy. It is solid ... trust me it really felt like wood, well - until you put a magnet unto it.

Donny

Hello Donny,

If the blade weren't spongy it wouldn't float. So even if it is not plainly visible with naked eye under sufficient magnification, I am sure the structure would appear spongy.

satsujinken · 27th January 2017, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Donny,

If the blade weren't spongy it wouldn't float. So even if it is not plainly visible with naked eye under sufficient magnification, I am sure the structure would appear spongy.

I'll take your word for it, Marius
at least for now

I will study this intriguing piece further and post any updates here

Donny

Pusaka · 30th January 2017, 07:09 PM

It is quite strange that it should float on water even if it were spongy, and then why should it be spongy? Acid would waste the blade away unless the alloy was composed of two metals one which is dissolved by acid whilst the other resistant.

Wire wool scrubbing pads are as spongy as you can get yet they dont float on water.

mariusgmioc · 30th January 2017, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

It is quite strange that it should float on water even if it were spongy, and then why should it be spongy? Acid would waste the blade away unless the alloy was composed of two metals one which is dissolved by acid whilst the other resistant.

Wire wool scrubbing pads are as spongy as you can get yet they dont float on water.

No, wire wool is not spongy. Spongy means there are many micro cavities inside. When you carefully put it on water, then some air might get trapped in these micro-cavities and make it float. And considering that these cavities are of microscopic dimmensions, it might even be difficult for the water to get in.

Normally kerises are made of diferent alloys of iron, some more, some less resistant to acid attack. Yet, it wouldn't be the different alloys that may cause this phenomenon, but the intrinsic structure of iron. Iron is formed by a matrix of microcristals of Ferrite and Cementite. Ferrite is a high iron phase, while Cementite being a low iron border material between metal and ceramic. What I suspect it happened with this Keris is that the Ferrite was dissolved by the acid and left the cementite matrix intact.... more or less.

Pusaka · 31st January 2017, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

No, wire wool is not spongy. Spongy means there are many micro cavities inside. When you carefully put it on water, then some air might get trapped in these micro-cavities and make it float. And considering that these cavities are of microscopic dimmensions, it might even be difficult for the water to get in.

Normally kerises are made of diferent alloys of iron, some more, some less resistant to acid attack. Yet, it wouldn't be the different alloys that may cause this phenomenon, but the intrinsic structure of iron. Iron is formed by a matrix of microcristals of Ferrite and Cementite. Ferrite is a high iron phase, while Cementite being a low iron border material between metal and ceramic. What I suspect it happened with this Keris is that the Ferrite was dissolved by the acid and left the cementite matrix intact.... more or less.

Dirty Iron is what we call Iron with lots of non metallic components. The forging process drives them out forming sparks as you strike the Iron. The purer the Iron becomes the less sparks formed. No keris could be spongy after being through the forging process. Keris blades are made from different types of besi (traditionally 16) they are all Iron just coming from different sources. I have seen a heavily pitted blade but never seen a spongy blade.

Pusaka · 31st January 2017, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by satsujinken

I'll take your word for it, Marius
at least for now

I will study this intriguing piece further and post any updates here

Donny

Have you tried to prick the blade with a needle to see how hard the material is?

mariusgmioc · 1st February 2017, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Dirty Iron is what we call Iron with lots of non metallic components. The forging process drives them out forming sparks as you strike the Iron. The purer the Iron becomes the less sparks formed. No keris could be spongy after being through the forging process. Keris blades are made from different types of besi (traditionally 16) they are all Iron just coming from different sources. I have seen a heavily pitted blade but never seen a spongy blade.

I am not talking here about non-metallic impurities but of the intrinsic structure of iron. besides maybe the original blade wasn't forged at all but cast.

I suspect that under sufficient magnification, the structure of the Keris my look something like this (but less cheesy of course,

):

A. G. Maisey · 1st February 2017, 08:19 PM

This comment was originally posted in error to a different thread.

Well, the discussion around and about this incredibly phantasmagorical keris has been bouncing along for two pages now, 38 posts!!

38 --- now 39 --- posts about a wooden keris that looks like metal, adorned with the laam-alif.

But then through some highly scientific experimentation it is discovered that we do not have a wooden keris in front of us at all.

No, it is in fact a metal keris, but wonder of wonders :- it can float!!

Metal that floats!!!

Miracle of miracles!!!

Joyoboyo did not actually predict that iron would float, but he came close, he predicted that ships would sail through the sky and that iron wagons would progress without horses. In fact, we now have iron ships that sail through the sky, so why not iron that floats?

This floating iron is to my way of thinking a clear indication that the Ratu Adil is about appear, or perhaps might already be amongst us. Those who follow present day Indonesian politics might well opt for the latter.

However, even without the Joyoboyo connection there is a perfectly rational, logical explanation for this floating keris.

The isi of this keris is most likely to be a Kyai, or perhaps a Pangeran, who during life abstained from bathing as a religious penance, in order to make his soul more pure.

He passed into the Other Realm, and thought he had found a home in this keris, that is until such time the keris was called upon to enter water.

It has been stated that this keris is extraordinarily light.
Why is this so?

Obviously it is because the holiness of the Kyai is causing it to levitate just slightly, if this holiness increases this keris could be in danger of becoming a flying keris, and levitate all the way into Swarga.

As we now know, when a keris moves independently and rattles in its scabbard, or bounces around the room, or even flies from one place to another, it is not because of any magical qualities in the iron, it is because it is responding to natural phenomena, like Earth Energy, or Solar Flares, or Weather, or even Water.

Yes, true, but does iron respond to these things unaided?

No, it does not, so obviously it is the isi in the keris that is responding, and in the case of this keris, it is responding to Water.

Why?

Because somebody who does not understand the sensibilities of the isi wants to put this Holy Kyai into water!

Perhaps the way forward might be to perform an offering to ask for forgiveness?

Maybe even have a slametan to re-enforce this plea for forgiveness?

But on the other hand --- if there was a considerable cavity in the body of the keris, this cavity could be the cause both of its lightness and its ability to float in water.

How could such a cavity be formed?

There are two ways, intentionally by welding only the edges of the blade, unintentionally by faulty welding that caused a massive cold shut.

I like the Kyai theory better, it has a more authentic feel to it.

Sajen · 1st February 2017, 09:13 PM

Agree!

Alan, you know that only very few people understand your statement!?

Rick · 1st February 2017, 10:37 PM

Google.....
Your word is a lamp for my feet and a light on my path.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd February 2017, 07:38 AM

Yes, that might be so Detlef, but I'm certain that the people who are ready to understand it, will understand it.

The last few lines should be very easy to understand, and I believe that those words probably give the explanation for the floating keris that is most likely to be acceptable to the non-magical world view.

mariusgmioc · 2nd February 2017, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, that might be so Detlef, but I'm certain that the people who are ready to understand it, will understand it.

The last few lines should be very easy to understand, and I believe that those words probably give the explanation for the floating keris that is most likely to be acceptable to the non-magical world view.

Brilliant! You made my day.... with your previous comment of course!

30th January 2017, 07:09 PM	#34
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	It is quite strange that it should float on water even if it were spongy, and then why should it be spongy? Acid would waste the blade away unless the alloy was composed of two metals one which is dissolved by acid whilst the other resistant. Wire wool scrubbing pads are as spongy as you can get yet they dont float on water.

1st February 2017, 08:19 PM	#39
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	This comment was originally posted in error to a different thread. Well, the discussion around and about this incredibly phantasmagorical keris has been bouncing along for two pages now, 38 posts!! 38 --- now 39 --- posts about a wooden keris that looks like metal, adorned with the laam-alif. But then through some highly scientific experimentation it is discovered that we do not have a wooden keris in front of us at all. No, it is in fact a metal keris, but wonder of wonders :- it can float!! Metal that floats!!! Miracle of miracles!!! Joyoboyo did not actually predict that iron would float, but he came close, he predicted that ships would sail through the sky and that iron wagons would progress without horses. In fact, we now have iron ships that sail through the sky, so why not iron that floats? This floating iron is to my way of thinking a clear indication that the Ratu Adil is about appear, or perhaps might already be amongst us. Those who follow present day Indonesian politics might well opt for the latter. However, even without the Joyoboyo connection there is a perfectly rational, logical explanation for this floating keris. The isi of this keris is most likely to be a Kyai, or perhaps a Pangeran, who during life abstained from bathing as a religious penance, in order to make his soul more pure. He passed into the Other Realm, and thought he had found a home in this keris, that is until such time the keris was called upon to enter water. It has been stated that this keris is extraordinarily light. Why is this so? Obviously it is because the holiness of the Kyai is causing it to levitate just slightly, if this holiness increases this keris could be in danger of becoming a flying keris, and levitate all the way into Swarga. As we now know, when a keris moves independently and rattles in its scabbard, or bounces around the room, or even flies from one place to another, it is not because of any magical qualities in the iron, it is because it is responding to natural phenomena, like Earth Energy, or Solar Flares, or Weather, or even Water. Yes, true, but does iron respond to these things unaided? No, it does not, so obviously it is the isi in the keris that is responding, and in the case of this keris, it is responding to Water. Why? Because somebody who does not understand the sensibilities of the isi wants to put this Holy Kyai into water! Perhaps the way forward might be to perform an offering to ask for forgiveness? Maybe even have a slametan to re-enforce this plea for forgiveness? But on the other hand --- if there was a considerable cavity in the body of the keris, this cavity could be the cause both of its lightness and its ability to float in water. How could such a cavity be formed? There are two ways, intentionally by welding only the edges of the blade, unintentionally by faulty welding that caused a massive cold shut. I like the Kyai theory better, it has a more authentic feel to it.

1st February 2017, 09:13 PM	#40
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Agree! Alan, you know that only very few people understand your statement!?

1st February 2017, 10:37 PM	#41
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Google..... Your word is a lamp for my feet and a light on my path.

2nd February 2017, 07:38 AM	#42
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Yes, that might be so Detlef, but I'm certain that the people who are ready to understand it, will understand it. The last few lines should be very easy to understand, and I believe that those words probably give the explanation for the floating keris that is most likely to be acceptable to the non-magical world view.