The flowers on the tulwar hilts

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hello Jim and thank you for an excellent reply summarizing what is so far outlined. If I may quote from my last post ~The subtle floral and vegetal designs of the San Diego hilt not only proclaim its Mughal origin, but also create a decorative program that elegantly contrasts and complements its sheer surface''. as being the archetypal description of Mughal work... placing floral design at the zenith of the famous Mughal art style...

and if I can refer to Dora Shikoh since he was executed as a Heretic because he tried with other Mystics to fuse Hinduism and Islam together... His fate was sealed at that point... and the mystery was developed from then on...The Hindu system already had floral Talisman as you state ...and since Aurangzeb completely missed the point of the artistic flowers and focused instead on erasing any written work that Daro had added to that artwork (by painting over with gold paint) we may never know the depth of secrecy hidden in the paintings..if indeed such secrets exist.

In conclusion and whilst no conclusion may exist on the topic here, I fully commend the study of Indian arms (often disregarded by 19th C weaponry writers and ethnographic experts) and especially taking difficult subject matter like this in an attempt to get a beam of light into the far flung corners of the subject as it opens up the entire spectrum of Indian Arms and Armour and puts the pen in the hand of all of us.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jens Nordlunde]

It is interesting to see how the discussion develops, although I had hope for more members to participate.
We must not forget that the Hindu's and the Muslim's used the floral decoration in different ways. Most of the flowers the Hindu's used represented a diety, and so had a special meaning to them. The Muslim's on the other hand, used the floral decoration only for decoration.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It is at first a complex subject but well worth getting stuck into.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[QUOTE=Jens Nordlunde]It is interesting to see how the discussion develops, although I had hope for more members to participate.
We must not forget that the Hindu's and the Muslim's used the floral decoration in different ways. Most of the flowers the Hindu's used represented a diety, and so had a special meaning to them. The Muslim's on the other hand, used the floral decoration only for decoration.[/QUOTE


Salaams Jens Nordlunde for what is a short but crystal clear point. It was indeed the Islamic view that calligraphy and geometry used as decoration was really the only allowable art form. This explains the gold painting over of such paintings commissioned by Daro on the orders of Aurangzeb whilst ignoring the beautiful floral decoration which as you point out was Hindu...

That the Flowers and Calligraphy were mixed together may have been at the heart of the secret which Daro and his Mystic friends were trying to hide.

Thank you.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim, thank you for the detailed information and excerpts on the possible talismanic aspects of the decoration on these weapons. It really gives us a lot to consider!
While much of what we are looking into involves the Mughal decoration of tulwar hilts, clearly the links to Hindu imagery play an important part in the development of many of these motifs.

I think the capture and execution of Dara Shikoh was more a result of the typical power struggle between the heirs for control from the standing emperor than differences in idealogy. The fact that Dara Shikoh was quite liberal compared to his younger brother Jahangir and as noted, was deeply involved in mysticism was however a notable circumstance. Elgood explains (p.135, "Hindu Arms & Ritual", 2004) that with the forces under these rulers, "...the ideological battle between Islam and Hinduism had limited relevance as mercenaries served either side".

In his book, Elgood explains also that flowers and plants indeed had both certain talismanic as well as dynastic significance in the early Hindu kingdoms and of course Faith. He states (p.129) that "...it follows that a plant depicted on a weapon is likely to represent more than its decorative value"
Further, that there were nine species of plant associated with the warrior goddess Durga, and the "...red flower is used for good and evil for charms and incantations on the one hand, and for witchcraft and spells on the other".

The exposure with European contact certainly rang true with respect to the various volumes of botanical lore and art known as herbals, as "...the Indians, like the Victorians (much later) had a very precise language of trees and plants and though there are regional differences, plants had a pan Indian value" (p.129).

Also noted is the sweet basil plant called tulsi (ocimum sanctum) associated with Vishnu, and referred to as 'bhutagni' (=killer of demons). Evil spirits including the god of death, Yama, are driven away by this plant, and its leaves often worn in the turban by Rajput and other warriors (p.144).

Salaams Jim, Once again I refer to your notes and on the inclusion of the Durga which must be one of the top echelon Deities in Hindu circles. The statue of Durga is often displayed with a huge group of weapons held by the deity which includes The Lotus. Clearly floral association with weapons is at play here...and as you point out other linkages are apparent across the spectrum of floral tributes...

Daro Shikoh must have considered this famous Deity in his Mystical studies and it becomes clearer how he looked at fusing two religions with floral and Calligraphic decoration; Hinduism and Islam. Unfortunately instead of taking over the Mughal dynasty he was judged a Heretic and died because of it.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Below some renditions of the famous Deity; Gurda.. In one the clear group of weapons and with one described as The Lotus. Interesting that the main weapon appears as a Tulvar. In the marble figure a Lotus held in one hand...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

To remind and revise here are some additional items displaying Hindu floral work. It is clear that not only hilts were decorated with floral work but blades, scabbards as well as other weapons thus shields daggers et al were thus endowed. This then is very much key to Hindu style although Hindu script and Islamic form with Calligraphy and geometry were incorporated..

[Jim McDougall]

Notes from Markel (1999, p.31):
During the Mughal regnal; " ...weapon hilts were also designed with floral and or vegetal forms, either adorned with raised or inlaid poppy plants or other flowers or terminating in floral shapes. Single buds were the most favored terminals, such as those used in the end of the knuckleguard and butt of a floral decorated late 17th c. jade sword hilt made to smaller scale for a young prince.
Occasionally multiple blossoms were used as terminals, such as represented on a jade dagger hilt from about 1700-1750 that features three buds inlaid with gemstones.
Not only did Mughal artists create new weapon hilt and vessel forms but they also modified forms from Islamic and/or Hindu design traditions with flora and fauna motifs that 'Mughalized' the pre existing forms appropriate for their desired imagery."

Further, Markel describes a ewer that has been dramatically 'Mughalized' with numerous depictions of POPPY blossoms, which since the time of the pleasure loving Jahangir served in effect as the STATE FLOWER OF THE MUGHALS.

In Elgood (2004, p.130) he describes "...the three royal families of the Tamils in antiquity known collectively as the Mu Ventor, or three kings, and were the Chera, Chola and Pandya.
The first had as its emblem the large white flower of the Palmyra palm (borassus flabelleifer); the second the at or atti common mountain ebony (bauhinia racemosa) and the third the dark branches of margosa (arya veppu)."
The dynastic flower symbols were later replaced by varied animal symbolism.

It seems that flowers as dynastic leitmotif in Hindu convention was replaced as noted by various animal and other symbolism, but the floral and vegetal dynamics were profoundly represented in Hindu metaphysical and talismanic auspicious representations throughout their tradition.

While the Mughals did largely regard many aspects of these Hindu traditions as heretical in varying degree, it does seem that Akbar was intrigued by Indian 'magic', as many of these holdings were regarded. The reputation of 'Indian magic' was in fact well known from antiquity into European cultures.
It would be interesting to know just how much occult and arcane symbolism in the European herbals which became so fascinating to the Mughals might have had origin in India in the first place.

It does not seem that unusual that Dara Shikoh had become keenly involved in the mystical properties of these herbals, and ironically his fascination was well represented with his forebearers as well. His capture and execution by his religiously conservative brother was more a power play with these mystical fascinations simply impetus to implicate him as a heretic.

In much decoration in Indian hilts, the auspicious and talismanic properties of not only animal totemism, but apotropaic properties of precious stones, metals and features such as architectural design are incorporated.
With these motif the Mughals created designs which brought in their own 'Arabesques' of geometric fashion together with these various floral patterns along with these other key elements.

It would seem that the concept of floral symbolism as a dynastic leitmotif with the Mughals had much more ancient origin in the Hindu culture, but clearly served the Mughal purpose well with their Gardens of Paradise theme.


This is a very complex and difficult topic, and it has taken many hours to try to formulate these thoughts, which I hope make at least some sense.
Jens has done the arms collecting community a great service with his gift of a magnificent volume sharing his many years of collecting and study on Indian arms. He has asked for us to join him in seeking more answers on these deeply esoteric topics, and myself and Ibrahiim have joined him in this discussion in hopes that others too may also participate.

I know there are many collectors out there who have in varying degree included Indian arms in their collections. I would ask that they bring out examples that we might examine and discuss the floral motif found, so that we can build the knowledge base on this important topic.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Very good Jim, and to each of the collectors who is willing to show pictures - please comment each picture in your own words.
It is nice to see pictures, but if they are not commented, part of it is missed.

[Pukka Bundook]

Very well put together Jim, and I can tell you have spent a great deal on time on this reply!
Jens,
This is such a deep subject, and time has been too short to comment in depth. No, it is not that I know much, (!) but a comment or two without much thought would not be helpful either, so I have refrained.
I do however find this topic very interesting, and too much of the culture and history of Indian arms has remained in a very murky state for far too long.
It is a long time since we discussed this subject ourselves, and I do want to get back to it. My problem at present is life is rife with "must do now" type things that I unfortunately cannot put off.
Hopefully things will soon settle down, so I can draw up my chair and collect my thoughts and join in !!

Very best,
Richard.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Richard!!! and its fantastic to have you here on this, as you note, very complicated topic. You have been steadily with us over these years of study, and your contributions to our learning have been outstanding. Really looking forward to your joining us on this!!!

All best wishes
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ibrahim,
Yes you are right, this rally is a very complex subject, with few conclusions, but a lot of guessing, as that is mostly what we can do.
Maybe we should try to take an interest in what Markel writes, and also start to study Indian jewellery, as part of the answer may lay there.

Jim,
I know you use hours with your books when you take an interest in a subject, and the members benefit from your studies very much. I think you have a very good point in turning to other sources, as the development of the decoration may be in a place, where weapon collectors seldom look for an answer.

Richard,
Yes it is years ago since we discussed the subject, and I have done little to research it since then, as I have had other researches going on.

I have come to the conclusion, that I am not going to survive my research list, so to speed the research up a bit I will ask the members to start their own research, and tell us about it.
When showing a picture of a decoration, please tell what you have learned from looking at it, or what you have read about it, how old it is, and where it was used - north or south.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Jim, Brilliant post and clearly there are hours of research behind this detailed response...I had to look up Leitmotif! which it states is a recurrent theme throughout a musical or literary composition, associated with a particular person, idea, or situation. Thus I see clearly its use on this decorative form as being present in the orchestra of decoration on everything Indian. I was looking through two decades old Sothebys catalogs and discovered the floral spread on Indian Carpets and even on the fittings on Hookah pipes. Indian Architecture is of course awash with such splendid decoration. It stands to reason that Indian Arms and Armour is laced with the complex floral designs.
I hope someone can provide the details I requested earlier but I will make the request again here..

Does anyone have a copy of Stephan Markels , "Use of Flora and Fauna Imagery in Mughal Decorative Arts" It would be useful to have this document transferred here for library purposes. I cannot get it to download...

I believe this will create the foundation framework so that we can get closer to the answer. Clearly Jim has provided huge clues from this document so that having the whole thesis to hand may well be a bonus to Library.

Regards,
Ibrahiim Al Balooshi.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ibrahim,
Here you can find it https://lacma.academia.edu/StephenMarkel

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ibrahim,
Here you can find it https://lacma.academia.edu/StephenMarkel

Thank you but that is the web page I have been drumming on for weeks trying to break into it so I can place its details on Library...even though it is 11 pages. ..I cannot download it ..though I have it cornered and try all the time to access I just cannot crack it... Anyone who can get into it please simply copy to Library...on this thread.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ibrahiim,
Have you read the rules for downloading files from their homepage?

[Jim McDougall]

Jens, can you link this article?
I know Ibrahiim has had some computer issues, and my scanner is on the blink.
Thanks a lot,
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Jim,
Yes I could, but I wont. I have given the link, so that each member can have a look at the article, and that must be enough.
Did you read the rules about copyrights?
Copyright is a world wide thing - but in a way it is also a gentleman agreement, and that is why I will no download it.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

So that we may proceed and since I made the mistake of asking for a copy of the entire document I will rephrase that asking if I can somehow have a precis of the work sent PM to me from which I will extract the relevant pieces and add to Library..I emphasis that the details are for research purposes and education and I have read the relevant rules appertaining to such work..

[Jim McDougall]

Sorry guys, I clearly had forgotten the copyright thing, and had been so complacent in the fair use practices that I overlooked that an entire article could not be downloaded per se'. Thank you for being diligent in observing these details which I should be well aware of. Well done.

We will have to simply extract pertinent details in accord with requirements and limit quotes to fair use standards .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here is an interesting painting depicting Dara Shikoh with Mystics;from The Agha Khan Museum.

Please see https://www.agakhanmuseum.org/collec...prince-mystics

It is worth considering that this relationship would eventually cause his death sentence carried out by Aurangzeb. It is fascinating that Dara had fused the two religions of Islam and Hinduism into one form. Hindu decorative style would be influenced by floral art for centuries and become apparent in architecture, weaponry and virtually all forms of artistic work in the entire universal Hindu pallet of arts...In fact this was not always the case..Jahangir’s passion for natural history was not inherited by his son Shah Jahan and grandson Dara Shikoh. It was during the 1630s that flowers and floral arrangements with their decorative possibilities came to dominate Mughal textiles and the adornment of architecture and album pages. See http://blogs.bl.uk/asian-and-african/mughal-india/

Is there a secretive subtext in the apparent use of Floral motifs in Mughal weaponry? What would have been the outcome had he survived and inherited the Mughal Dynasty?

[Jens Nordlunde]

The sword hilts were decorated in different ways. Some had a flat decoration, while others had a chiselled decoration. Others had a combination of both, as can be seen in the picture below.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

http://atkinson-swords.com/sword-mak...on/decoration/ goes some way to discuss the different decorative techniques. The author also references Forum library with Inlay, koftgari, repousse, chasing and neillo which I assume is the thread at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=neillo

As usual a picture being worth 1000 words here is a fine example described as ~

Talwar; gilt metal hilt engraved with foliate decoration; knucklebow with chevron pattern; pommel with scalloped edge, fitted with swivel with red and gold woven wrist strap; steel back-edged blade with deep fuller on face, with gilt inscriptions.

Provenance
One of Tipu Sultan's favourite blades; belonged to his father Hyder Ali Khan.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Maybe the thread should be made a bit broader, so the title should be.
The flowers on the tulwar hilts, and the flowers/suns on top of the disc.
My reason for expanding the title is, that I believe the decoration on top of the disc, or failing decoration, is of importance.
Unfortunately we know very little about these disc decorations, but hopefully we can get the different details together, so we can get a better overall picture. The flowers are very different, and the suns have a very different number of rays, but I find it unlikely that this has to do with an artistic 'fingerprint'.

[A. G. Maisey]

In mainline Hindu belief each deity has an appropriate or favourite flower that is used during puja, here are some examples:-

Lord Ganesh:- His favourite flower is hibiscus, but really you can use any red flower; you can also use other flowers such as roses, or jasmine or marigolds, as well as various leaves. In Ganesh Puja more than 20 types of flowers and leaves are used.

Lord Shiva:- His appropriate colour is white, the most important flower/fruit/leaf in Shiva Puja is the bael (aegle marmelos, bilvapatra, bel). Other flowers can be offered.

Durga:- Her appropriate colour is red, hibiscus is a suitable flower, you can also offer bael fruit/flower/leaf, or lotus, or jasmine (mogra)

Parvati:- All flowers suitable for Lord Shiva are suitable for Parvati

Lord Vishnu:- His favourite flower is lotus. He is also very fond of tulsi (holy basil) leaves.

Lord Brahma:- His most appropriate flowers are lotus and crepe gardenia (firki tagar)

Surya Devata (God of the Sun):- lotus

with thanks to Lord Ganesh

These are just a few examples, the list is endless, and opinions can differ as to what is appropriate, or favourite. Even in what I have given above, I've only given favourites or "most appropriate" in most cases other flowers/leaves/fruits can also be used, and to know them all and their correct order is really the skill of a Brahmin.

The use of these flowers/leaves/fruits as ornamental or decorative motifs would depend upon how and where used, and by whom.

My area of knowledge is the keris, not Indian weaponry, what I've given above is just a touch of an area of subsidiary knowledge that is required to understand some things connected with keris culture, however, my guess would be that the use of these floral motifs in Indian decorative art probably depends very much upon the wishes of the first owner of the object, and perhaps only he knew the true meaning of the use of the motif, according to his understanding.

Where use of these motifs in an Islamic context is concerned, obviously the interpretation will differ.

[Jim McDougall]

Alan, thank you so much for this remarkable and itemized information pertaining to the symbolism associated with various Hindu deities. This is exactly the kind of detail needed to better understand the floral aspects of these hilts, and their imbued symbolism.
It is a well placed reminder as you have noted, that often key data and clues in the study of one field of weapons may be found within studies of other arms, not necessarily directly connected.

As you have well observed, it is most unlikely we can know without a doubt the exact purpose or meaning intended by the original artisan who created the decoration, or that of its intended client or clientele. These imbuements are of other times and circumstances, and their actual intended meanings do not necessarily transcend into later situations or generations. Often times these motifs may simply be repeated aesthetically or traditionally without such aspects being known.

Still, having such insight into the symbolism generally held in Hindu dogma and tradition can give us a reasonably plausible view to evaluate such possibilities.

Also, as noted, there was a good degree of use of Hindu motif melded into the decoration of Islamic arms which was likely far more aesthetically applied in many cases. However, it is known that a number of favored floral patterns became dynastic leitmotif in other cases.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for your comment Jim.

I have believed for a long time that it is simply not possible to learn much about keris, by the attempted study of keris. Pretty much all one can gain by studying the keris itself is superficial and often erroneous understandings of the simple physical characteristics.

The Indianised States of South East Asia , most especially Jawa and Bali, owe much to their Indian heritage. That heritage has been combined with indigenous cultural values, and overlaid with the values and beliefs of other cultures, very much so in Java, to a lesser degree in Bali, but the foundations of Hindu-Buddhist symbolism are still there.

To have any hope at all of understanding this symbolism, and the associated values, it is essential to study the society and culture, rather than a single blossom of that culture:- the keris.

I am inclined to believe that using this socio-cultural approach to the study of perhaps any form of weaponry that was/is used by any group of people will yield better results than trying to understand a weapon by studying the weapon itself.

To put it another way:- if we regard weapons as blossoms of a culture, roses, so to speak, we do the same as a dedicated rose gardener does:- we study the soil in which the rose grows, in order to understand the rose. We do not begin with a petal and then work back to the soil. Study of a petal tells us almost nothing, study of the soil tells us almost everything.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Alan, thank you for your posts. They are very interesting, especially the part about the flowers connected to the deieties. I have always thought that the number of flowers were more limited.
Your last post explains it all quite well, and the way you end the post explains very well how a research should be started:-).

[ariel]

[QUOTE=Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

..... It was indeed the Islamic view that calligraphy and geometry used as decoration was really the only allowable art form.....

With all due respect, this is a tremendously simplified and rather incorrect point of view.
Aniconism as such was officially introduced by Caliph al-Malik in ~697 CE ( that was when islamo-byzantine coins stopped carrying portraits of the Caliph ( or presumably Muhammed himself) and became image-less tokens.
However, in a little bit of time Persians, Mamluks, Moghuls and Ottomans produced enormous numbers of detailed miniatures with human images and even portraits, including Muhammed himself, and some of those images were pretty risque, not to say pornographic.

Perhaps the only society where uniconism still persisted was Aravia proper, but even there crude engraving were created.

Hadiths proscribe music as well, but it was never suppressed and flourished unabated everywhere. Even alcohol was used in some islamic societies and strains.

[Jim McDougall]

It seems whenever approaching a topic where highly complex aspects are involved, particularly religion and the Islamic Faith, it becomes necessary to highly quantify virtually every view or comment expressed. I think this is a good example, and as certainly the case, we do need to recognize these religious complexities in degree to better understand the symbolic and decorative aspects used in these hilts.

While the observation that there were certain proscriptions toward the portrayal or imagery of sentient beings in many cases in the numerous schools of thought and other divisions in the Islamic Faith is correct, the variations are indeed innumerable.

With the Mughals, as a whole these dynasties belonged to both Sunni and Shi'a followings, and the Sufi followings were present a varying degree.
While Ottomans were largely Sunni, the Janissaries were Bektashi Shi'a and again other variations were likely followed as with various nations in that empire and their Faiths.
The Persians of course were Shi'a and followed different approach to decorative allowances. The Mamluks were again of various followings.

It seems that with all of these empires, dynasties and nations there were considerable instances of degrees of synchretism between these Faiths and followings, and to adamantly classify certain restrictions presumed broadly applied probably best avoided.
I fully concede I am not a theologian, but this assessment is based on what understanding I have toward these historic periods and the Faith observed in them.