Omani Sayf/Saif

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Form usually follows function, guardless swords like these and the Caucasian shashqa are not inteded for a combat style that requires integral hand protection.

well noted, in combative situation most of these ethnographic forms were not wielded blade to blade as in European swordplay, parrying is done with a shield when done at all. The shashka was of course a slashing saber using 'draw cut' from moving horse.
Perhaps this non parrying criteria was what brought the disdain of Burton, a master fencer, who described the leaping to avert cuts etc. derisively. This of course suggests description of the dance performances.

With the images of Tipu Tip and other Omani's in his entourage having these conical hilt swords, it does not seem these warriors would be carrying dance swords when marching into battle. So I still wonder how they were able to vibrate these fighting blades into audible sound as often described. I hope that the experts might explain this as I am not familiar enough with the physical handling of swords in these ways.

[Jerseyman]

Certainly no need to apologise. I'm delighted to have sparked a continuation of a conversation which I have read over a number of times and have had a continuing fascination for. I'm also pleased to see reference to a number of weapons which I also have representative examples in my collection, such as the seme, and particularly the sword from Sierra Leone, which until now I had failed to identify. The historical references cited are of great interest and I hope others may be found to broaden the knowledge base. Thanks to all who've contributed.

[Edster]

Jim,

So I still wonder how they were able to vibrate these fighting blades into audible sound as often described. I hope that the experts might explain this as I am not familiar enough with the physical handling of swords in these ways.[/QUOTE]

I'm certainly not an expert, but I do have first hand experience that may be relevant. The sword makers of Kassala (1985) noted the flexing and vibration of certain kaskara when using a snap of the wrist. I later assumed that the blade was forged from high-end spring steel (lorry springs?) that would yield good bending. In fact they noted and demonstrated sword bending almost 90 degrees without taking a set.

A further note likely off-topic, but I just wanted to contribute a not necessarily original observation. The sword in total was a tangible element of dress and a "presentation of self". It seems to me that a blade was "selected" primarily to do the work as a tool, either in war/personal protection or ritual like dancing. European makers marks or those locally applied indicate quality. Script animals like a lion or snake evokes magic for protection.

The grip and scabbard either was left in utility mode of the lower classes or soldiers, but was of an ethnographic style. The style said to others "I am a member of this group". "Gentlemen" and others of higher class/status embellished the ethnic style grip & scabbard to demonstrate their place in society. The blade would usually be of top quality even though they often commanded others to do their fighting.

Think of the gentleman's attire as like a Texas BBQ Pistol. It would be of top quality designed to go armed (manly presentation) and show off among one's peers at a social get-together.

Best,
Ed

[Jim McDougall]

Beautifully explained Ed, as always.
From what I know of swords, flexibility in blades has its degree of importance, and of course a well known display of high quality was in being able to bend the blade into a deep curve and have it return true at release of tension.

However, this was not the case in all blades as might be expected, and clearly their intended manner of use would be the key factor in its acceptability.

Well described on the dress of the sword, and its image as an accoutrement of status, office and wealth in with the wearer (great analogy of the Texas BBQ pistol!!! ). While these often notably decorated examples were worn by these figures as the dynastic symbol of the regime and personal augmentation, they were with notably sound trade blades as a rule.

In my opinion, the blade shown here in the OP while simple, seems to have a version of the Passau/Solingen running wolf, which may well be the mark as used on Caucasian blades. These 'wolf marks (ters maymal) are more an interpretation of the well known Solingen variations of these, and it is known that Caucasian blades were much favored in Arab trade.
This blade would be considered prestigious and regarded as well placed in a weapon of status.

We cannot say these long conical hilted sayf were not used in combat as required, it would be difficult to assert that, and they may have been in some degree. What is suggested is that these were not intended as a battle weapon specifically to arm a warrior in battle conditions. With the prevalent use of firearms of course, it was not a primary weapon in any case.

The main contention is that the very light, highly flexible blades which seem to have been made expressly for simple versions of these type swords used in the dancing were not used in combative situations. This is of course quite separate from those made with sturdy trade blades for the prestigious swords worn by Omani gentlemen.

It does not seem that the disparity between these two separate types of these Omani long swords should be such a point of contention.

[Edster]

Well said Jim and informative as well. I think the flexible/bendy blades may have resulted from almost random consequences of the blade making process, i.e. the coming together of good steel, adequate quenching and proper tempering. It is difficult to get all three processes to coming together even most of the time given the simple facilities available to say the smiths in Kassala. I noted an experienced blade maker apparently air quenching a blade and then tempering it in water in a channel iron tray. Certainly not the way it's done on Forged in Fire.

In the "presentation of self" part I wanted to consider the sword as an Object rather than the Subject. As collectors and students of weapons we see the sword as the Subject made & used within an ethnographic context. But in its original context it is a cultural Object. The blade (imported or locally made) is a product that made by a Person, decorated & accessorized by other Persons, selected and used & worn by another Person and perhaps held dear by Others mainly within the initial cultural context. In several forum commentators, including your analysis, we get into the cultural context and this is the frontier of a more complete understanding.

Best,
Ed

[kronckew]

Forged in Fire is an interesting show, but do not think that making blades under time & material constraints to pass their extreme tests and their reasons for rejection has anything to do with reality of sword making.


p.s. - I recall the approach of the Zulus to Rorke's Drift in the film 'Zulu' they beat their shields with their Iklwa hilts and sounded in their hundreds like a train. The Romans did this too, to intimidate their soon-to-be dead victims. When they actually formed up and advanced to the battle, they did it in silence* - even more unnerving.
*- they did of course use trumpet commands, which the men obeyed instantly - in silence.

[Edster]

Yep, both the "reality show" Forged in Fire and the film Zulu are/were scripted and edited productions that sacrifices reality to tell good stories. For me FIF uses the cooking show format to simulate reality. Zulu is a favorite, but I wouldn't have wanted to be one of the "live action" camera or sound men on the battlefield to get an accurate reality.

Best,
Ed

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Edster

Yep, both the "reality show" Forged in Fire and the film Zulu are/were scripted and edited productions that sacrifice reality to tell good stories. For me FIF uses the cooking show format to simulate reality. Zulu is a favourite, but I wouldn't have wanted to be one of the "live action" camera or sound men on the battlefield to get an accurate reality.

Best,
Ed

Zulu numbers in the movie were not very many. They 'augmented' distant hilltop shots by having 2 real Zulus, additionally carrying another 6 cutout cardboard Zulus nailed to a board. I did like the movie 'gladiator' use of the Zulu chant recording just before the Germans attacked in the early battle. Actually, the movie's whole Rourke's Drift layout was not as real, and in the real battle most Zulu were killed at over 300-600 yards. Dead zulus in the movie were resurrected for later shots. There was no drunk preacher or soldier either. I hear the Zulu warriors had a great time making the movie.

[kai]

Hello Ed,

Allow me to go back to your observation:

I think the flexible/bendy blades may have resulted from almost random consequences of the blade making process, i.e. the coming together of good steel, adequate quenching and proper tempering. It is difficult to get all three processes to coming together even most of the time given the simple facilities available to say the smiths in Kassala. I noted an experienced blade maker apparently air quenching a blade and then tempering it in water in a channel iron tray.

Could you please describe in more detail what the process was exactly?

Certainly quenching is generally done with steel even if there are lots of traditional approaches. Tempering is way more difficult to achieve consistent results with and often skipped in many cultures. It certainly can't be done in water - that must have been the quenching.

Quenching in air is only possible with some modern high alloy steels. If there was some time spent between the forge and dipping into the water for tempering, it may have been for de-risking the process and/or not going for maximum hardness. Both can make sense in an artisan setting (and the strategy chosen may be heavily dependent on experience with the specific type of steel available and being worked on). Some steels can be pretty forgiving and reach reasonable hardness with a range of conditions while others need to treated exactly right to obtain any decent quench.

Regards,
Kai

[Edster]

Hello Kai,

My "instantaneous" image of the smith putting the blade in the water tray is an over 30 year old memory. As a "visual thinker" I am confident of what I saw, but the "frames" before and after didn't register, but I just assumed he was doing a part of a heat treat process. I wish I had paid more attention to the entire process or had asked more questions. Not all the swords the group of smiths there were "bendy" and I assumed that the bendy ones were the result an unplanned result of the combination the parent steel and the quench and temper. Sorry I can't really answer your question.

Best,
Ed

[kai]

Hello Ed,

Sorry for my probing - just trying to document observations as much as possible for further research.

My "instantaneous" image of the smith putting the blade in the water tray is an over 30 year old memory. As a "visual thinker" I am confident of what I saw, but the "frames" before and after didn't register, but I just assumed he was doing a part of a heat treat process.

Sure, dipping the blade into the water is the crucial quenching step.

Any tempering step (heating the blade back to low heat - exact temperature and duration are critical and specific for each steel.

I was just wondering about the step before the water quench which you described as "an experienced blade maker apparently air quenching a blade" - just in case you may remember anything on this. No worries if not, I realize it was a long time ago.

Not all the swords the group of smiths there were "bendy" and I assumed that the bendy ones were the result an unplanned result of the combination the parent steel and the quench and temper.

Yes, quite possibly.

Did you get the impression that this was in general more of a hit or miss thing or did certain makers obtain more consistent results than others?

Regards,
Kai

[Jim McDougall]

This has become a fascinating study on forging and metallurgy, which is most interesting as I admit I have little true understanding of these processes.
If I may, getting back to the Omani sayf......as one of the key elements of the Razha or sword dance in the Funoon is the theatrics.

The objective was to cause the sword blades to vibrate, in unison, causing a notably loud sound, along with the flashing bright blades. Is it POSSIBLE, that these blades might have deliberately been made to achieve this vibration for such performances?

It would seem that, given the numbers of potential variations of European and other trade blades found in many of these 'battle ready' sayfs, without standard quality control to achieve the necessary 'bendy' result needed for distinct vibration, it would have been quite a task to ensure all the 'warriors' had the proper 'bendy' blades to participate in the ceremony.

I think this might be the reason that, despite the consternation over whether these sayfs were used for battle or not, there just might have been examples made specifically for performances.

[Edster]

Kai,

I don't recall any smith plunge a blade into an oil or water bath or see such a container, just the water tray I mentioned. No doubt I missed that part. The two days I hung around the Kassala smithy was my first experience among sword & knife makers. Even though I was/am a mechanical engineer, I likely didn't really understand all of what I was seeing. The goal of my anthropological investigation was "the social economics or sword & knife production" (what the various actors were doing and how much they could earn). Now I wish I had focused/documented more on the production process.

The smiths seemed very methodological and apparently knew what they were doing. They used no gages and all dimensions were my eye. They apparently had made so many blades that they may have been on auto-pilot; just felt the making rather than a step-by-step process. They began with a billet of spring steel, split it to add length and started the elongation process. The actual dimensions of the finished blade were ultimately defined from the size of the initial chunk of steel. The sword was contained within the original billet. Each smith used his individual skill/experience/magic to produce a finished blade to his satisfaction using the available technology. I think bendy or not was just how it turned out. I could be wrong in my ignorance.

Jim,
I think that once the dimensions of a dancing sword were known; like forte size, if any and blade taper & thickness, balance point, length, weight, whatever, a skilled smith could make bendy swords at will to the local cultural market. The Kassala smiths were making serviceable weapons to their cultural market and bendy was great, but not required.

Best,
Ed

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Ed! I think your field studies in Kassala and Sudanese areas around have been some of the most valuable reports for not only the edged weapons there, but in general of that period. Your insights I think pretty much show that makers in Oman could have produced blades as suggested, for the ceremonies in the same manner.

[Edster]

Thanks Jim,

Now that my initial field work is deficient in sword making tech, about 5 or 8 years ago I tried to contact my initial informant via a local NGO that worked with the suqs in Kassala. Many questions had emerged that only local knowledge could answer. Alas, at the time the powers in Khartoum nixed the Kassala staff from interacting because the Bega there were at odds with the Khartoum regime. These days I have no link.

Regards,
Ed

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Edster

Thanks Jim,

Now that my initial field work is deficient in sword making tech, about 5 or 8 years ago I tried to contact my initial informant via a local NGO that worked with the suqs in Kassala. Many questions had emerged that only local knowledge could answer. Alas, at the time the powers in Khartoum nixed the Kassala staff from interacting because the Bega there were at odds with the Khartoum regime. These days I have no link.

Regards,
Ed

That is a shame Ed, a very familiar dilemma it seems these days, but hopefully research and knowledge can prevail.

[Peter Hudson]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This has become a fascinating study on forging and metallurgy, which is most interesting as I admit I have little true understanding of these processes.
If I may, getting back to the Omani sayf......as one of the key elements of the Razha or sword dance in the Funoon is the theatrics.

The objective was to cause the sword blades to vibrate, in unison, causing a notably loud sound, along with the flashing bright blades. Is it POSSIBLE, that these blades might have deliberately been made to achieve this vibration for such performances?

It would seem that, given the numbers of potential variations of European and other trade blades found in many of these 'battle ready' sayfs, without standard quality control to achieve the necessary 'bendy' result needed for distinct vibration, it would have been quite a task to ensure all the 'warriors' had the proper 'bendy' blades to participate in the ceremony.

I think this might be the reason that, despite the consternation over whether these sayfs were used for battle or not, there just might have been examples made specifically for performances.

Hello Jim, It is good to see a different angle being viewed on the Straight Omani Dancing Sword known as The Sayf. It becomes a little confusing as generally the local people will call any sword from almost anywhere in the world a Sayf! As discussed the dancer is very bendy..most examples can be gripped at the flat tip and the blade bent around to touch the hilt and released to spring straight . I recall reading that some blades were made around Lars and around the Gulf as well as some being made and sold by wandering Gypsies originally off the North West Frontier. Many blades were and are made at a factory in Salalah and demand remains quite strong for the cheaper style whereas anyone with more money could buy a more expensive model perhaps from further afield and some are seen worn by VIPs such as Tipu Tib perhaps the greatest Slaver ever... This did not change their use..and all Sayf were for Pageant only.

It is vital to consider The Funun as this allowed the Sayf to transition in design when the big curved Slave Captains Sword blade appeared from The African Great Lakes and given the name Kitara from the name of the country they were associated with... Bunyoro-Kitara which means The Kingdom of the Sword but it should be noted that these were originally short tanged so had to have an extension and a pommel added unlike dancing Sayf that were made from one piece. The blade was then given a built on long hilt identical to the Omani Saygas well as an Omani Scabbard AND The Omani Terrs buckler shield.

Members may be further wrong footed in thinking that slavery ended in the early part of the 19thC when in fact it was still going on there in the 1960s when Sultan Qaboos ordered it to cease and amalgamated slaves into the Omani tribal structue. They were allowed to select a surname as before that they were generally all called Juma...a single name with no known family or tribal structure.

Peter Hudson.