Gunfighters and notches in grips - Page 2

Rick · 9th August 2009, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

1, WW2 Polish fighter pilots in the RAF as an example....lost their country and maybe family to the Reich, and were there simply to kill Germans. It was a vendetta and that is all. Even when the weather was not fit for flying, they would Still fly if an enemy 'plane was heard overhead....even against orders.
Such a vendetta could concievably also occur in the old west, if someone lost his family to 'hostiles'

What has this to do with the old west?..........I don't have a clue!!...apart from giving examples of where keeping score is more 'Kosha"

All best wishes
Richard.

The movie Tombstone is all about vendetta; not to mention a fantastic cast of actors .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yDgkvWh3JQ

Eight thumbs up !!

Rick

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2009, 07:24 PM

Well said Richard, and now that you mention it, the very Sicilian practice of 'vendetta' was indeed something well known to the mafia, though it was more of score 'settling' than something recorded or shown with bravado. Thier activities were traditionally very covert, but well known to the most important figures.

Good point on RAF's Polish fighter pilots, from an extremely proud heritage and they, like many WWII pilots, certainly did display victory tallies. Perhaps since air combat was considered in certain cases very aligned with one on one combat it was somehow likened to chivalry and knightly contest. Much of this I am sure derived from this perspective somewhat romantically applied to the degree of chivalry associated with pilots in WWI and its seemingly distorted application, but while the texture changed, the counting of 'kills' still denominated flying aces. The noses of planes typically in WWII carried tallys of victories, bombing missions, along with modern versions of heraldry and 'nose art'.

Interesting on the tribal use of the tally in New Guinea, and just as with the WWII aviation applications, not directly applied, but certainly pertinant in broader understanding of the concept. Thank you for adding these notes!

Excellente Rico!!! The vendetta, as applied in the old west, bellisimo......and as well noted, Tombstone and the Earp vs. Clanton factions......Kilmer was brilliant as the famous gun toting dentist!!! Huckleberry THIS .....!!!

That puts us back into context, and in the concurrent thread on armor in the wild west.....did Wyatt use any kind of bulletproof appliance or clothing?
The jury's still out,

All the best,
Jim

VANDOO · 9th August 2009, 11:48 PM

I REMEMBER A SMALL BIT ABOUT THE SPIRIT POLES USED IN NEW GUINEA UNFORTUNATELY I NO LONGER REMEMBER MUCH OF MY RESEARCH SO WILL GIVE A BRIEF RUNDOWN.
THESE POLES FIGURED IN A MYSTERY THAT TOOK PLACE IN NEW GUINEA SOME YEARS AGO. ONE OF THE ROCKAFELLERS HAD BEEN COLLECTING TRIBAL ART FOR A MUSEUM IN NEW GUINEA AND HIS BOAT CAPSIZED AND HE SWAM IN FOR HELP AND DISAPPEARED. THE REST OF THE CREW STAYED WITH THE BOAT AND WERE FOUND AND THEY LOOKED FOR YOUNG ROCKAFELLER AND FOUND THE TWO LARGE METAL CANS HE HAD USED TO FLOAT IN. THEY FOUND HIS GLASSES IN A VILLAGE YEARS LATER BUT HE WAS NEVER FOUND.
NOW TO THE POLES WHEN A TRIBE KILLED AN ENEMY THEY WERE USUALLY CARRIED OFF AND EATEN. IF YOU LOST ONE OF YOUR TRIBE A SPIRIT POLE WAS CARVED FOR THE FALLEN WARRIORS SPIRIT TO RESIDE IN UNTIL HE WAS AVENGED AND THEN HIS SPIRIT WAS FREE AND MOVED ON. THESE POLES ESPECIALLY THE OLD ONES WERE PRIZED BY MUSEUMS AND ROCKAFELLER COLLECTED THEM WHEN HE COULD. IF THE POLE NO LONGER HAD A SPIRIT INSIDE THEY WOULD SELL IT BUT IF A SPIRIT WAS STILL IN RESIDENCE IT WAS NOT FOR SALE. IN ONE VILLAGE THERE WERE SIX VERY OLD POLES AND SEVERAL GROUPS HAD TRIED TO BUY THEM OVER THE YEARS BUT THEY NEVER WOULD SELL. THE STORY WAS A WHITE MAN HAD KILLED SIX OF THEIR TRIBES WARRIORS MANY YEARS AGO. WHEN A PARTY PASSED THRU LATER LOOKING FOR ART AND ASKING ABOUT ROCKAFELLER ONE ASKED ABOUT THE POLES AGAIN AND FOUND TO HIS SUPRIZE THEY WERE FOR SALE. SO THEY THINK IT IS LIKELY WHEN SOME MEMBERS FROM THE TRIBE FOUND ROCKAFELLER THEY THOUGHT HERE WAS A CHANCE TO FREE THEIR ANCESTORS AT LAST SO HE WAS SPEARED AND VERY LIKELY EATEN. NO ONE EVER TALKED AND ONLY THE GLASSES WERE FOUND SO IT REMAINS A MYSTERY.
WE SURE ARE FAR AFIELD FROM THE WILD WEST BUT THIS HAPPENED IN THE WILD WEST OF NEW GUINEA.

Jim McDougall · 8th September 2009, 06:25 PM

Just passing through some of the threads out of curiosity and found this one in which our quintessant master of exotica, Vandoo, posted this fascinating entry and I entirely missed it!

It is always amazing how some threads seem to take on a life of thier own, and digressions and deviations, very much like conversations in groups, sedgeway into many topics.
While worlds away and having seemingly little direct relation to gunfighters notching guns, Vandoo has nicely added this completely intriguing example of 'tallying' and its very pertinant application in this often inherent human trait in certain circumstances.

In reading this and the mention of the mystery of the Rockefeller disappearance, I remember this well from the times, and this was a key topic for media as it was centered in a curious fascination with exotic ethnography that had become popular.
The area of Papua, or West New Guinea, a province in the Indonesian archipelago, also known as Dutch New Guinea, had been the location for a French-Dutch expedition in 1958-59 studying some the tribal peoples there.
The expedition had produced a documentary titled "The Sky Above, the Mud Below", which had won an academy award in 1961, further fueling the public's interest in native tribal art. It seems the title of this documentary became almost a cliche' in following years as the words always come to mind in that parlance.

November 17,1961 was the date that Michael Rockefeller disappeared, as he and several others had separated from the Peabody expedition that had been there focused on the Dani tribe. Rockefeller had sought to go more into the Asmat region, as noted the tribes here known for fantastic woodcarving and art, and the subject of the documentary. These people were still in these times known for headhunting and cannabalism, and apparantly a Dutch patrol had killed several tribesmen in 1958, just three years before. This was near the Otsjanep village where Michael would probably have come ashore when thier dugout overturned.

The rest is as described by Vandoo, and it is known that Rockefellers mother commissioned investigations with substantial rewards to find closure in the mysterious case. It is believed several skulls were brought back, which it is speculated might have belonged to the unfortunate Michael and party, but these details have never been disclosed.

At least my curiosity is satisfied and as always, Vandoo, thanks for the great adventure!!! His writings are like the wonderful classic adventure movies which travelled through the intriguing and exciting exotica in those high times of the 20's and 30's...very much like the early Tarzan movies!!

Outstanding,

All best regards,
Jim

PS . regarding the notching back in America's wild west, in researching for another thread, found notes on a relatively little known figure about a curious 'wanna be' gunfighter called Russian Bill (William Tannenbaum). This mysterious person had carved 4 notches in his peacemaker, apparantly for effect, and made an 'entrance' into Tombstone about 1880. His ambitious and somewhat theatrical impersonation of the Wild West as perceived in his native Russia, ended up with him at the end of a very real rope November 9, 1881 in Shakespeare, New Mexico. His claims to be of Russian noble birth remain a mystery.

The illustration is of the local 'restaurant' where his charade ended in Shakespeare, New Mexico. Rather poignant for this apparantly well versed in literature and classics person.

8th September 2009, 06:25 PM	#34
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Just passing through some of the threads out of curiosity and found this one in which our quintessant master of exotica, Vandoo, posted this fascinating entry and I entirely missed it! It is always amazing how some threads seem to take on a life of thier own, and digressions and deviations, very much like conversations in groups, sedgeway into many topics. While worlds away and having seemingly little direct relation to gunfighters notching guns, Vandoo has nicely added this completely intriguing example of 'tallying' and its very pertinant application in this often inherent human trait in certain circumstances. In reading this and the mention of the mystery of the Rockefeller disappearance, I remember this well from the times, and this was a key topic for media as it was centered in a curious fascination with exotic ethnography that had become popular. The area of Papua, or West New Guinea, a province in the Indonesian archipelago, also known as Dutch New Guinea, had been the location for a French-Dutch expedition in 1958-59 studying some the tribal peoples there. The expedition had produced a documentary titled "The Sky Above, the Mud Below", which had won an academy award in 1961, further fueling the public's interest in native tribal art. It seems the title of this documentary became almost a cliche' in following years as the words always come to mind in that parlance. November 17,1961 was the date that Michael Rockefeller disappeared, as he and several others had separated from the Peabody expedition that had been there focused on the Dani tribe. Rockefeller had sought to go more into the Asmat region, as noted the tribes here known for fantastic woodcarving and art, and the subject of the documentary. These people were still in these times known for headhunting and cannabalism, and apparantly a Dutch patrol had killed several tribesmen in 1958, just three years before. This was near the Otsjanep village where Michael would probably have come ashore when thier dugout overturned. The rest is as described by Vandoo, and it is known that Rockefellers mother commissioned investigations with substantial rewards to find closure in the mysterious case. It is believed several skulls were brought back, which it is speculated might have belonged to the unfortunate Michael and party, but these details have never been disclosed. At least my curiosity is satisfied and as always, Vandoo, thanks for the great adventure!!! His writings are like the wonderful classic adventure movies which travelled through the intriguing and exciting exotica in those high times of the 20's and 30's...very much like the early Tarzan movies!! Outstanding, All best regards, Jim PS . regarding the notching back in America's wild west, in researching for another thread, found notes on a relatively little known figure about a curious 'wanna be' gunfighter called Russian Bill (William Tannenbaum). This mysterious person had carved 4 notches in his peacemaker, apparantly for effect, and made an 'entrance' into Tombstone about 1880. His ambitious and somewhat theatrical impersonation of the Wild West as perceived in his native Russia, ended up with him at the end of a very real rope November 9, 1881 in Shakespeare, New Mexico. His claims to be of Russian noble birth remain a mystery. The illustration is of the local 'restaurant' where his charade ended in Shakespeare, New Mexico. Rather poignant for this apparantly well versed in literature and classics person. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 8th September 2009 at 06:54 PM. Reason: add pictures

9th August 2009, 07:24 PM	#32
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Well said Richard, and now that you mention it, the very Sicilian practice of 'vendetta' was indeed something well known to the mafia, though it was more of score 'settling' than something recorded or shown with bravado. Thier activities were traditionally very covert, but well known to the most important figures. Good point on RAF's Polish fighter pilots, from an extremely proud heritage and they, like many WWII pilots, certainly did display victory tallies. Perhaps since air combat was considered in certain cases very aligned with one on one combat it was somehow likened to chivalry and knightly contest. Much of this I am sure derived from this perspective somewhat romantically applied to the degree of chivalry associated with pilots in WWI and its seemingly distorted application, but while the texture changed, the counting of 'kills' still denominated flying aces. The noses of planes typically in WWII carried tallys of victories, bombing missions, along with modern versions of heraldry and 'nose art'. Interesting on the tribal use of the tally in New Guinea, and just as with the WWII aviation applications, not directly applied, but certainly pertinant in broader understanding of the concept. Thank you for adding these notes! Excellente Rico!!! The vendetta, as applied in the old west, bellisimo......and as well noted, Tombstone and the Earp vs. Clanton factions......Kilmer was brilliant as the famous gun toting dentist!!! Huckleberry THIS .....!!! That puts us back into context, and in the concurrent thread on armor in the wild west.....did Wyatt use any kind of bulletproof appliance or clothing? The jury's still out, All the best, Jim

9th August 2009, 11:48 PM	#33
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I REMEMBER A SMALL BIT ABOUT THE SPIRIT POLES USED IN NEW GUINEA UNFORTUNATELY I NO LONGER REMEMBER MUCH OF MY RESEARCH SO WILL GIVE A BRIEF RUNDOWN. THESE POLES FIGURED IN A MYSTERY THAT TOOK PLACE IN NEW GUINEA SOME YEARS AGO. ONE OF THE ROCKAFELLERS HAD BEEN COLLECTING TRIBAL ART FOR A MUSEUM IN NEW GUINEA AND HIS BOAT CAPSIZED AND HE SWAM IN FOR HELP AND DISAPPEARED. THE REST OF THE CREW STAYED WITH THE BOAT AND WERE FOUND AND THEY LOOKED FOR YOUNG ROCKAFELLER AND FOUND THE TWO LARGE METAL CANS HE HAD USED TO FLOAT IN. THEY FOUND HIS GLASSES IN A VILLAGE YEARS LATER BUT HE WAS NEVER FOUND. NOW TO THE POLES WHEN A TRIBE KILLED AN ENEMY THEY WERE USUALLY CARRIED OFF AND EATEN. IF YOU LOST ONE OF YOUR TRIBE A SPIRIT POLE WAS CARVED FOR THE FALLEN WARRIORS SPIRIT TO RESIDE IN UNTIL HE WAS AVENGED AND THEN HIS SPIRIT WAS FREE AND MOVED ON. THESE POLES ESPECIALLY THE OLD ONES WERE PRIZED BY MUSEUMS AND ROCKAFELLER COLLECTED THEM WHEN HE COULD. IF THE POLE NO LONGER HAD A SPIRIT INSIDE THEY WOULD SELL IT BUT IF A SPIRIT WAS STILL IN RESIDENCE IT WAS NOT FOR SALE. IN ONE VILLAGE THERE WERE SIX VERY OLD POLES AND SEVERAL GROUPS HAD TRIED TO BUY THEM OVER THE YEARS BUT THEY NEVER WOULD SELL. THE STORY WAS A WHITE MAN HAD KILLED SIX OF THEIR TRIBES WARRIORS MANY YEARS AGO. WHEN A PARTY PASSED THRU LATER LOOKING FOR ART AND ASKING ABOUT ROCKAFELLER ONE ASKED ABOUT THE POLES AGAIN AND FOUND TO HIS SUPRIZE THEY WERE FOR SALE. SO THEY THINK IT IS LIKELY WHEN SOME MEMBERS FROM THE TRIBE FOUND ROCKAFELLER THEY THOUGHT HERE WAS A CHANCE TO FREE THEIR ANCESTORS AT LAST SO HE WAS SPEARED AND VERY LIKELY EATEN. NO ONE EVER TALKED AND ONLY THE GLASSES WERE FOUND SO IT REMAINS A MYSTERY. WE SURE ARE FAR AFIELD FROM THE WILD WEST BUT THIS HAPPENED IN THE WILD WEST OF NEW GUINEA.