good day

[Jim McDougall]

Nicely done Yuanzhumin!! thank you for posting this which illustrates the similarities in symbolism that can occur convergently. There is an outstanding book from some years ago titled "The Mind in the Cave", which deals with prehistoric man and discusses the meanings of many of the symbols in caves and rock art. Much of the emphasis was on the temporal interpretation of these figures and symbols, often suggesting that they were not necessarily intended to represent events that had happened, as they were meant to entreat positive forces in events yet to take place.

Obviously it is unlikely we can interpret meanings such as these with any accuracy, but it is interesting to note the similarities graphically, and these that you have posted really present excellent comparison.

Again, thank you for acknowledging and responding to my comments and posts, it is very much appreciated I think we're on the same page.

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

With the many cultures that have 'snake' symbolism including India (Naga) and even Europe, that,so far have not been mentioned. I think tying the engraved blade to a specific time frame/culture will be difficult.

Hopefully, the dimensions/spec. of the blade will be forthcoming soon, this would obviously help to assertain the knife's function ...and perhaps then 'narrow' the possible origin. I do hope the blade is not thin and flexible...would you need the protection of the crossguard whilst 'buttering' your bread

IMHO I still feel that the 'raised' spine is functional and not a symbolic feature to 'mimic' a Benin blade, which usually represents an animal form.

Regards David

[chregu]

Hi
Thank you to everyone who made the thoughts and reveal their knowledge.
The knife is now in my!
Blade length 33cm
Blade width (rear) 3.1 cm
Blade width (front) 3.6 cm
Thickness (rear) 4mm
Thickness (front) 3mm
the blade is sharp only on the bottom

[Tim Simmons]

Interesting slim blade. The pointillist engraving catches my eye as does the steel plate under the brass button at the pommel. European hunting knife?

[chregu]

hi simon
I think it's a European, hunting knife belongs (cutlery)

[Tim Simmons]

I was in Oxford today visiting the Pitt Rivers museum { lots of pics to show} and came across this piece. In amonst several of the usual Asian knives and daggers, choora and the like. Labeled eastern dagger? Now with the scabbard, I think it is very clearly a prestige African item. I am certain of a West African origin perhaps even as north as Guinea. The scabbard fits snuggly under the guard. It was not got for pennies but kinda groovy?

Total length in scabbard 44cm, naked 43cm, blade 31cm.

[Tim Simmons]

These are rich folks Vodun Ogun cutlasses. The one that started the thread has a bird head, this is Aje a deity. It is complicated as a outsider but as far as I can work out, Aje is or can used as female aspect to Ogun. Also a goddess of wealth. Aje appears to humans as a fowl. So all the bird idea posts were not that far of the mark except Peafowl are Indian.

PS most probably a Guinea fowl.

PS

The snake {like} engraving on the first example is also a female aspect and access to Ogun. So I suggest the first example might possibly? have belonged to a wealthy lady? There are restrictions on female acess to Ogun, the bird and snake allow female acess.

When seen together like this it becomes more clear, just one has the double guard scabbard top thing. The other has that bird thang going on.

[Jim McDougall]

Fantastic Tim!!! You really did it on this one, and nicely explained as well as supported by your observations through the entireity of this thread...it is clear that this weapon is what you have suggested all along. I really love it when threads have dropped away but are revived by new evidence, and then shared with detail we can all learn from.
Your visit to Pitt Rivers has become one we all got to go on thanks to your sharing all these great photos and observations, a personal guided tour

Thank you very much Tim!!!

Best regards,
Jim

[David]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

These are rich folks Vodun Ogun cutlasses. The one that started the thread has a bird head, this is Aje a deity. It is complicated as a outsider but as far as I can work out, Aje is or can used as female aspect to Ogun. Also a goddess of wealth. Aje appears to humans as a fowl. So all the bird idea posts were not that far of the mark except Peafowl are Indian.
PS most probably a Guinea fowl.
The snake {like} engraving on the first example is also a female aspect and access to Ogun. So I suggest the first example might possibly? have belonged to a wealthy lady? There are restrictions on female acess to Ogun, the bird and snake allow female acess.

I don't think it is likely that a blade like this, if dedicated to Ogun, belonged to any one particular wealthy person, male or female. It would more likely be a temple tool and it's "owner" would be Ogun himself, to be wielded by a priest or priestess who is possessed by Ogun. That it is nicer than some others probably speaks more to the wealth of the community associated with the temple from which it may have come.
I have a different understanding of Aje. Here is an interesting article on the subject. Note that the bird association remains.
http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/tr...y-persona.html

[M ELEY]

Fascinating thread and pretty awesome detective work by all. I was hoping for a more definitive answer on this one, particularly with its double guards. I have seen another sword with a double guard on an auction page many years back with such a construction, listed as a "Spanish pirate??" sword. (Yes, now you know why i remember it so well- ) It had a similar patterning to my mystery sword that ended up being West African, possibly Dahomey, and also looked distinctly 'pirate'. See the old thread 'Colonial hanger, Spanish dagger or...'

My point in bringing this up is, can anyone else provide a double guard/double disk guard item of W. African origin to confirm if this is a common construction detail of this region?

[Tim Simmons]

David thanks for the interest and the link. I do not want to drift too far from the knives post here but it is important to understand the motives for there creation. The link shows how Vodun is a living view of life and not bound by a scripture. I am not an expert but feel some of the ideas in the link may have taken form and reflect infuences of late 20th century feminism. I post an extract from {Africas OGUN Old World And New} which I am using as my guide for investigation. I might being adding 2+2 = 5 about a ladies object but you can see how.

It is certainly possible that the item with the scabbard was a temple object. I took it to be a personel object a badge office or devotion, by the definate signs of carriage/suspension and wear to the scabbard loop. Pictures for examination.

As to the idea of a tradition in form; well the Swiss chap has one the same anymore out there?

PS the first piece of text should follow the second.

[Tim Simmons]

I see it as perhaps personel regalia used in scenes like this from many parts West Africa. Indeed a symbol of the wealth of the community. Belonging to the officiating priest would be rather cool. Sorry the picture is so large but not much point in showing it any smaller.

[Tim Simmons]

I do not know if this is right but seems to make more sense.

The bird element seen on these ceremonial cutlass is most probably nothing to do with the deity AJE and female life force. It is more likely to represent OBATALA who brings a chicken to earth, it's scratching in sand, scatters the sand and forms the world . OBATALA infulence on the cutlass would be to bring balance to the attributes of OGUN .

I read this which helps a lot. Shango, Obalata and Ogun are different but could be seen as rain water, freshwater and saltwater all the same.