A large 19th century flintlock pistol

[fernando]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

.. My main argument (and obviously from the records, others who study maritime artifacts) is that many of these pistols saw action during the mentioned events. Here's one from the esteemed London Museum collection-
https://www.diomedia.com/stock-photo...ge6852418.html

This is undoubtedly a private purchase, (not government contracted), right ?; the presence of a ELG* stamp and the absence of British proof marks on the barrel, make it clear. The engraving of the anchor 'could' have been done in Liege. Would you figure out what the two initials mean; the ship or the gun owner ?
I may be playing the fool but, as i never saw it being commented, and for one's perusal, the ELG letters mean ÉPREUVE LIEGE. The star was replaced in 1893 by a crown.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

The ELG and star in a cartouche was used from 1810 until the present ...

Nothing more than a slight detail, if i may, Norman. As per my post 31#, the star was replaced by a crown in 1893 .

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by fernando

Nothing more than a slight detail, if i may, Norman. As per my post 31#, the star was replaced by a crown in 1893 .

Hi Fernando,
My post was in response to Jim's statement that the ELG star in an oval was from 1810 to 1853 thereby limiting pistols with this stamp to within those dates whereas the date range is in fact greater.
My Regards,
Norman.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Fernando,
My post was in response to Jim's statement that the ELG star in an oval was from 1810 to 1853 thereby limiting pistols with this stamp to within those dates whereas the date range is in fact greater.
My Regards,
Norman.

As i said Norman, a slight (by the way) detail ... more for possible future aknowledgement

[Norman McCormick]

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...belge%20gb.htm

Hi,
This may be of interest. The guns in question are described as 1815 pattern Dutch-Belgian Navy pistols.
Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Jim,
The ELG and star in a cartouche was used from 1810 until the present. I have attached a copy of London and Birmingham proof marks from The Worshipful Company of Gunmakers of the City of London and The Guardians of the Birmingham Proof House. This shows that a crowned V is a London proof and not Birmingham and if the gun was foreign made the V would be circled with the crown on top. All the charts I can find relating to Liege state that a crowned letter is the inspection mark from 1853 to 1877. I have also attached another chart with more specific dating.
Hope you are keeping well in this time of uncertainty.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman,
Thank you so much for entries from this resource. I must say that while have studied swords most of my life, firearms have always seemed to elude me, so this great discussion is quite a learning curve for me. Of the very few books I have on firearms, this reference by Howard Blackmore has been with me for well over 40 years, and he seems to have been one of the most highly respected firearms authorities (according to most of the arms figures I knew in the years with the Arms & Armour Society in Loondon).

What puzzles me is that in his book (1961, attached pages) he shows items 25-30 as view and proof marks of PRIVATE Birmingham proof houses.
You will note that #27 is a crown over V. There seem to have been others using a P.

n "English Pistols and Revolvers" (J.Nigel George, 1938, p.94), the author notes the 'private proof houses were abolished in 1813, and "....a proof house similar to that of the Gunmakers of London was established at Birmingham. Arms that had undergone proof were now stamped with two marks, each in the form of two crossed sceptres surmounted by a crown, the first marked with the letter V, for viewed, the second with the letters BPC fr Birmingham Proof Co.".

As the resource you show begins with 1813 with these markings, it would seem that Mark's pistol must have been viewed by one of the number of private proof houses. During the wars (Napoleonic and 1812) the volume of firearms processed through London and these proof houses was staggering.
As previously noted, the constant break downs of flow of parts etc. with contractors was a frustration for makers, and it is easy to imagine that less costly and ready weapons from Liege would be resorted to, especally in the case for outfitting privateers.

While most resources seem to focus on 1813+, the records of gun markings seem less abundant in the years prior, as well as remarkably inconsistent.

As Mark has shown in the excellent entry from the National Maritime Museum, these sea service pistols were certainly in use early in the century. While the 'HMS Victory' association is surely spurious as they note, they do not dismiss the presence of these Belgian pistols in that period.

For me, the evidence points to the period we have been suggesting, 1810-13 for this Belgian Sea Service pistol, and likely use on any privateer vessel for the British during these wars in that time.

As for the anchor marking, just as with swords, these are by far not a prerequsite for naval weapons, and in my opinion were likely added privately in either zealous or hubris oriented character on other ranks arms.
I cannot imagine why Liege would apply such a mark, as their arms were not intended to serve any particular branch. While these pistols seem to have been regarded as 'sea service', they were used widely by any number of military units in many countries through the century.

[fernando]

It is naturally sensum communem that the Liegeois would not stamp the anchor or any other symbol in the lock plate of a generic (mass) production. What i have (only) suggested is, if the pistol in the museum was part of a private purchase, which all indicates it is, it would be nothing implausible that the client, a ship's captain or a sailing enterprise, would order a lot of such fireamrs for his/their crew and send along the technical drawing for the anchor to be engraved in the origin workshops. Otherwise, it is left to know where the client took the gun/s go be engraved elsewhere in England; he would certainly not require the job from the BO facilities.
Just a pitty the museum photo doesn't have macro opitions to visualize both anchor and the two initials with one's eye.
My humble perspective, this is .

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...belge%20gb.htm

Hi,
This may be of interest. The guns in question are described as 1815 pattern Dutch-Belgian Navy pistols.
Regards,
Norman.

An excelent link, Norman; i use it often to ID gunmakers. I happen to have a (bilingual) little book where Claude Gaier himself writes a synopsis on the Liege weapons making universe.
Fantastic guns shown in it; both Portuguese and Liegeoise

.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

It is naturally sensum communem that the Liegeois would not stamp the anchor or any other symbol in the lock plate of a generic (mass) production. What i have (only) suggested is, if the pistol in the museum was part of a private purchase, which all indicates it is, it would be nothing implausible that the client, a ship's captain or a sailing enterprise, would order a lot of such fireamrs for his/their crew and send along the technical drawing for the anchor to be engraved in the origin workshops. Otherwise, it is left to know where the client took the gun/s go be engraved elsewhere in England; he would certainly not require the job from the BO facilities.
Just a pitty the museum photo doesn't have macro opitions to visualize both anchor and the two initials with one's eye.
My humble perspective, this is .

Naturally that is sensum communem that the Liege shops would not place anchors or any such defining symbol on the weapons they produced, as I have always thought of this arms center as producing a sort of generic assortment . The weapons they made were either imitations of other standing forms or heavily influenced by them. As such I had not thought that such commissions were engaged there.

Good point on the weapons once acquired being taken to engraver for markings or these kinds of motif/symbols as these specialized shops took care of such requirements. I often forget how many contractors and vendors were involved beyond the actual maker/retailer of the weapn.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...belge%20gb.htm

Hi,
This may be of interest. The guns in question are described as 1815 pattern Dutch-Belgian Navy pistols.
Regards,
Norman.

This is an excellent article Norman!!! Thank you!

This means that these familiar sea service pistols made in Belgium were well in use by this time (1815). Typically a 'pattern' or 'model' of a weapon type is given that designation as a result of an official order or regulation issued in that year and recognizing the form as distinct and standard.

This means that such a designated weapon has likely been in production and use already for an indeterminate period of time. The bureaucratic wheels in earlier times, incredibly, were even slower than today!
With Spanish weapons, especially in the colonies, for example, the sword colloquially termed the 'bilbo', was often regarded as a M1769, yet had been prior classed as a M1728. We cannot be sure exactly when these arming swords developed, but those years correspond to offical regulations issued.

With English swords, the M1821 swords for light cavalry(three bar hilt) and the 'heavy' with bowl hilt. While production of these began in that year, issues and complaints led to production halting 1824-25,with a hiatus until 1829. As a result these are deemed by many to be techncally 1829's while many call them 1821's.

With these pistols, that they existed as such well prior to 1815 seems to be the case, but it is good to see how they have been referenced in all these sources. The Liege factor is I think much overlooked in arms study, so this remarkably insightful discourse is outstanding!

[M ELEY]

Thanks to everyone for remarking on these interesting firearms. As I am not typically a collector of such, everything written here is food for thought with me.

Thank you, Norman, for that great posting on Leige production! It would seem that there are still questions on some of these pieces and more research needs to be done...but we are off to a good start here!

[Pukka Bundook]

There still appears some confusion over the ELG over a star in an oval.
This stamp is still used, or was as late as 1981 for muzzle -loading black powder arms.

The Crowned mark is for Definitive Black Powder and Military Proof.
This information from the booklet put out by the Worshipful Company of Gunmakers of the City of London, and The Guardians of the Birmingham Proof House.
My copy is from August 1981, so things May have changed since then!

Very best,
Richard.

[fernando]

Richard, this Liege marks universe is not an easy thing to decipher ... at least for me. I know that, in a simplistic manner, the final proof mark ELG * in an oval lasted until circa 1893, when it was added with a crown over the said ELG* in an oval, which lasted until 1920. Only that this crowned version had two sizes, depending on the type of gun.
I hope this helps ... a little.


.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Naturally that is sensum communem that the Liege shops would not place anchors or any such defining symbol on the weapons they produced ...As such I had not thought that such commissions were engaged there...

Jim, i will not further soak the thread with unrelated (or colateral) issues. I will therefore send you e-mail on the subject .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

There still appears some confusion over the ELG over a star in an oval.
This stamp is still used, or was as late as 1981 for muzzle -loading black powder arms.

The Crowned mark is for Definitive Black Powder and Military Proof.
This information from the booklet put out by the Worshipful Company of Gunmakers of the City of London, and The Guardians of the Birmingham Proof House.
My copy is from August 1981, so things May have changed since then!

Very best,
Richard.

Thank you Richard for noting this, apparently the markings have a bit more dimension having these factors set the variation with black powder, nitro and other terms pretty much unknown to the firearms uninitiated (myself incl).

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, i will not further soak the thread with unrelated (or colateral) issues. I will therefore send you e-mail on the subject .

Well noted Fernando, and thank you for sending me details on activity in Liege where indeed certain weapon forms were commissioned and would have been marked at factory. Its always interesting to see the many aspects that surround a topic even when not directly on topic, the learning curve never ends!!

[M ELEY]

Just another interesting tidbit going on during the time these pistols started hitting the market. Hey, I gotta get in my pirate barb whenever I can, right! Just saying that these pistols, if funneled through Dutch channels, might have ended up in all manner of hands!


https://www.napoleon-series.org/mili.../c_danish.html

[corrado26]

here an intersting offer of the Bannermann catalogue of 1925

[M ELEY]

I've handled an old Bannerman catalog many years ago and actually took a tour on the Hudson, sailing right past the remnants of his castle complex. His catalogs actually contained a lot of amazing items on the cheap back in the day! Scottish swords, m1796's by the dozen! Even ethnographic stuff! You just don't see those kind of numbers today! If I could only step back in time-

[corrado26]

Don't forget: The last shirt has no pockets!

[Pukka Bundook]

Dear Fernando,

The proof marks are as you show in the catatlog, but this does not mean that the earlier mark disappeared, it was merely retained for muzzle -loading arms, up to at least 1981.
The one you show in the photo is interesting, as it has the Crowned ELG mark, for military arms, Plus, the Crowned R for Rifled arms.
V good to see them both !

Kind regards,
Richard.

[fernando]

Dear Richard,

From a well established French house i could read in the original language what, being translated reads as follows;

The ELG marking is the regulatory hallmark of the Liège proofhouse. This punch has evolved over time. These three letters were inscribed in a vertical oval between 1811 and 1893 and then still (puis dans toujour) in a vertical oval but surmounted by a crown from 1893 to the present day.

By reading the term 'evolved' and 'still in a vertical oval but surmounted by a crown', i inferred that the previous symbol ceased being applied. I am ready to say that i was driven to the wrong conclusion, once you have different evidence.
All Belgian guns i have had would have been made before the 1890's.

[Pukka Bundook]

Dear Fernando,

It is difficult to resolve this my friend, when we both have different books that tell us different things. :-)
I do know I had a reproduction, and not very good quality musket, that had the ELG and star in the oval, and no crown, (Crowned would mean military arms my book says) The one I had was not military, and made possibly in the 1950's or 60's.

We will not fall out over this. It may be we have to accept that two sources tell us different facts. :-)

If I see this stamp on a reproduction arm, and can post it here, I will do so.

Kindest regards,
Richard.

Edited to say I fond this on -line.
It says exactly the same as the booklet put out by the Gunmakers Company Proof House, of London.

Very best,
Richard.

[fernando]

Dear Richard,
You are absolutely right in that we won't fall out over this intricate subject.
Yet finding the 'real thing' for everyone's perusal, would be useful... i believe.
As an ultimate move, i have e-mailed the Liege Museum Director, with hopes that he sends along an actual listing of Liege proof marks.Expecting it to be supported with a circumstancial text, given to the fact that, as my be seen in this LINK, some of these marks had a different meaning depending on the dates they were used.


.

[Pukka Bundook]

"some of these marks had a different meaning depending on the dates they were used."

You are absolutely correct my dear friend.
I look forward to hearing of the information from the proof House.

Stay warm and safe. Here it is minus 40C again! (This is the same temp, (minus 40, if degrees F too. Both feel cold.) :-)
Up north it has been minus 72 degrees....

[fernando]

No reason to feel cold wih those sauna temperatures, Richard. The real thing is over here, with 13C (55F) .
Stay safe, you too .

[corrado26]

half an hour ago:

[M ELEY]

You guys are killing me! We had only one day of snow here in the southern U.S. I am also hoping for some clarity on the Liege markings. I am still convinced that some of these pistols date to the period 1810 and later, per the original marking. We'll see...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by corrado26

half an hour ago:

Oh UDO!!!

[fernando]

Originally Posted by corrado26

half an hour ago:

Are there bears in your neighbourhood, Udo ? .