3rd November 2020, 02:56 AM | #31 |
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"Agony in the Garden", 1515
Reinterpretation of the scene, with a different sword depicted. |
3rd November 2020, 03:01 AM | #32 |
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"Landscape with Cannon", 1518
The cannon is decorated with the coat of arms of Nuremberg. It is believed to be the weapon that gave Emperor Maximillian I superior firepower over the Turks. It is not known if the Turk depicted is a prisoner or an ambassador. Durer used his own likeness as the head of the Turk. |
3rd November 2020, 03:06 AM | #33 |
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"Peasant and His Wife", 1519
We've seen this hilt before, also attributed to "peasants". Interesting that the artist's decision to use the same hilt design after so many years had passed. Habit of the artist, or does it speak to longevity of a peasant's style. If one values utility over fashion, there likely is little reason to change from a design that is working well enough. |
3rd November 2020, 03:07 AM | #34 |
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"Cardinal Albrecht of Brandenburg", 1523
Sword on the wall in the background |
3rd November 2020, 03:09 AM | #35 |
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"St. Bartholomew", 1523
The knife blade is interesting. Reminiscent of the blade held in a fist that serves as a maker's mark. |
3rd November 2020, 03:12 AM | #36 |
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"St. Simon", 1523
The instrument in his hand is a saw, rather than a weapon. Still, I included here because the hilt looks like something that, if we saw on a weapon, we might speculate, "could that be from a tool, rather than a sword?" Now we have an example of a saw handle for reference |
3rd November 2020, 03:13 AM | #37 |
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"Frederick the Wise", 1524
Crossed sword upper left corner. |
3rd November 2020, 03:15 AM | #38 |
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And, that's all of them - feel free to discuss, or simply reference as related to items you have in your collection.
I'm always curious to read your thoughts and comments. Overall, I hope this proves useful to some of you as it is my way of paying tuition for the education this forum has provided me over the years. |
3rd November 2020, 07:49 AM | #39 |
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It is the first time today that I saw your many posts which I looked at with great interest. Dürer's opus is really really remarkable and ingenious and I have to thank you to having posted it here.
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3rd November 2020, 05:48 PM | #40 | |
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Orient comes from Latin Oriens which is ”rising” and means East (where the sun rises). The point of reference for ancient Romans of course was the City of Rome. The opposite of orient is occident which means West in Latin. In the US apparently the word oriental was considered to be a racial and derogatory term in the 1970s (perhaps due to the Vietnam war?) and its use has been phased out. The word oriental in Europe has perhaps become a bit imprecise as it now includes the Middle East and all of Asia, but the word is hardly considered derogatory. As example can be mentioned the prestigeous School of African and Oriental Studies in London (SOAS). |
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3rd November 2020, 10:39 PM | #41 | |
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People will always attach baggage to words and labels. In the US, the term "Southerner" inspires certain knee-jerk connotations with a lot of people who are not from south of the Mason-Dixon line. Last edited by Philip; 3rd November 2020 at 11:00 PM. |
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3rd November 2020, 10:52 PM | #42 | |
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Geographic fuzziness
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Note that Robert Hales' lavish picture book, his career retrospective, is entitled Islamic and Oriental Arms and Armour: A Lifetime's Passion. Nothing wrong with covering all the bases. |
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3rd November 2020, 11:15 PM | #43 | |
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For most of our history, African Americans were officially labeled Negroes (from Latin niger, "black" ) but aside from continuing usage in reference to Negro spirituals (songs) and the former Negro League (baseball) it has fallen out of general usage due to its phonetic similarity with its repugnant derivative. However, the term Negro is still used in common speech, along with Black, in Europe and the UK perhaps because of differing historical realities. I don't know anyone from across the pond who uses the term "African-American". As I noted in another post, the term Oriental has not been universally condemned in US Asian communities. It's still used among Asians in Hawaii, and to identify products and organizations (including churches) among Korean and Filipino immigrant communities. However, some "progressively minded" people do bristle... I recall one ChineseAmerican female author, during an interview, indignantly blurt out "...well, I am NOT a carpet!" PC can be a minefield... |
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3rd November 2020, 11:33 PM | #44 | |
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bag pipes and the Celtic heritage
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One of my most vivid memories of Spain was a trip, decades ago, to attend the Fiesta de Santiago de Compostela, in Galicia, the northwest corner of the country which has been a Celtic cultural stronghold for centuries. Never conquered by the Romans nor the Moors... The gaita gallega is the traditional instrument there, mouth-blown like the Scots Highland piob-mor though somewhat smaller and with fewer drone pipes, played by bands marching through the streets with drums, around the Cathedral. An interesting thing, archaeologically, is the discovery of numerous stone boars in that region and in northern Portugal -- worshiped by the pre-Christian Celt-Iberian inhabitants as symbols of courage, much as did the Celts who fought the Romans, blowing their war-trumpets made of bronze, fashioned with open tusked boars' mouths instead of a funnel shape. Last edited by Philip; 4th November 2020 at 03:22 AM. Reason: clarify description |
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3rd November 2020, 11:40 PM | #45 | |
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sword rain-chape
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For those wanting to see the real thing, there are a couple of Italian swords of the period published in Boccia/Coelho, Armi Bianche Italiane (1975). I believe Oakeshott's Records of the Medieval Sword may have a few more examples of hilts with intact chapes as well. |
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3rd November 2020, 11:46 PM | #46 | |
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peasant knife
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Last edited by Philip; 3rd November 2020 at 11:47 PM. Reason: addtitle |
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4th November 2020, 12:01 AM | #47 | |
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Cannon
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4th November 2020, 02:38 AM | #48 | |
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4th November 2020, 03:18 AM | #49 | |
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St Simon the Apostle, aka Simon the Zealot
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The implement is indeed a saw, he was martyred by being sawn in half. The place of his demise is not certain, variously placed in Greece or Persia. As we've discussed in your previous excellent thread on the Nürnberg Chronicles, religious iconography of the era often depicted Saints with the instruments of their martyrdom -- such as Catherine and the spiked wheel, Sebastian with arrows, and Lawrence holding or standing next to the gridiron on which he was roasted. |
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4th November 2020, 06:28 AM | #50 | |
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halberd
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Dürer's works are an invaluable documentary source for the arms and costume of his time. The profile of the halberd's ax blade, along with the protruding flanges flanking the pointed beak, clearly match the styles catalogued by Ewart Oakeshott as falling within the period 1450-1520, closely approximating the artist's lifespan. See Oakeshott's European Weapons and Armour pp 46-48 for an illustration of the weapon's evolution and of its principal regional styles in the South German / Swiss / northern Italian territories. |
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4th November 2020, 09:21 AM | #51 | |
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4th November 2020, 11:07 AM | #52 | |
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When I moved from California to Tennessee, I recall the locals commenting to each other when one called me a 'yankee'. The other said, "nah, he's from California, he aint nuthin'" in a drawl from the holler I could barely understand As they would say here in Texas (didnt bother me none though). |
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4th November 2020, 11:15 AM | #53 | |
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Shayde, I just wanted to thank you for entering these, and especially for placing them as separate entries so we can discuss each individually. It is much easier than trying to refer to a long block of images of different works. It is a very thoughtful thing to take the time to add these great works of Durer, who I think was an amazing artist with the detail in his illustration (especially in the arms) and the context. These always remind me of the intriguing and mysterious illustrations in the Johnny Depp movie "The Ninth Gate" in thier character. No tuition needed here we all learn together and from each other. |
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4th November 2020, 11:23 AM | #54 | |
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The serrated blades of the swords used by the sappers etc in military forces were of course used as saws as well as a weapon as required. |
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4th November 2020, 11:28 AM | #55 |
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As noted in post #35 re: hand holding a dagger
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4th November 2020, 11:39 AM | #56 |
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Re: Post 32, landscape with cannon, 1518
Added coat of arms of Nuremberg as depicted on cannon. This was apparently one of a number of 'iron plates' and depicting curiously a group of Ottomans around an outdated cannon from Nuremberg. At this time Maximilian I, Holy Roman emperor was calling for a crusade against the Turks, which did not materialize. The symbolism in the work is unclear. |
4th November 2020, 12:49 PM | #57 |
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"Five Landsknechts and an Oriental" 1495
In post #1, this Durer engraving depicts as titled, five landsknechts and an oriental.
The landsknechts were actually German mercenaries who used Swiss fighting methods and arms from the latter 15th century. The most discernible weapon is the 'halberd' poleaxe here. It is curious why the 'oriental' person is included here, but it seems that Durer was profoundly influenced by Italian Renaissance art. Attached is a painting of Mehmed II by Bellini from 1480 (note the addition of the crowns in background reflecting the same conventions of these addendums in Durer's work). Durer had traveled to Italy in 1494 just as the Italian wars were beginning and surely saw the forces involved assembled at places. It seems that Renaissance artists had a fascination with 'oriental' figures, which Durer adopted as well. He added an oriental figure to his own coat of arms, and this affectation seems a sort of 'exotica' which he seems to have been drawn to. The weapon most discernible here is the Swiss halberd held by the figure at far right. The hook at the back of the axe head was to pull a rider from his horse. |
4th November 2020, 01:04 PM | #58 |
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"Peasant and Wife" 1519
This work from post #33 here, is intriguing as the hilt style is noted.
What is remarkable here is that this hilt style appears to be of the 'karabela' form, which did not become known until around 17th century in Poland and Hungary. It is believed that the style was adopted from Ottoman sabers, but their exact origins and when they were used remains unclear. Here it is remarkable to see this hilt style in this work of 1519, well over a century before it became known in Eastern Europe. Again, it would seem the attraction to 'oriental' (i.e. Ottoman) imagery is apparent. |
4th November 2020, 02:52 PM | #59 |
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Hi Jim,
I'm not sure this has anything to do with Karabela forms. The farmers knife or Bauernwehr was well established in Europe and as I see it this is the type of knife the man is wearing. My Regards, Norman. |
4th November 2020, 04:11 PM | #60 | |
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