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#31 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Poznan, Poland
Posts: 16
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Thank you for the welcome Fernando.
![]() Oh! I know this forum (when it comes to topics concerning Navajas). It is extremely interesting. I think everything has already read, especially interesting statements colleague Chris Evans. The first time I came to you has just a year ago in search of information about Navajas - but I registered only today. ![]() Thank you very much for your warm words about my site. I hope that you liked. ![]() |
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#32 |
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 332
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As far as I know, we cannot speak of true "cossack saber", as they were part of a larger area and have adopted the arms found wherever they were. I think our friend Wolviex can elaborate.
Janusz, great site. I wrote a short essay myself about the navaja, alas I'm afraid automatic translator do not work well with Hebrew... http://www.collect.co.il/content.aspx?id=187 |
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#33 | |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,893
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I wish of friend Wolviex was still posting here as he was a most valuable contributor and our key insight into Polish arms and armour. We have not seen him in some time and hopefully he will return. Well made point by Broadaxe, it would be difficult to classify a particular weapon or style of weapon to any of the Cossack hosts, as typically they were amalgams of various ethnic groups and of course used weaponry as available. In the case of our discussion here, it seems of course that this sabre is likely as I earlier suggested, mid 17th century and probably of Polish-Lithuanian origin. The original question asked if the blade was Genoan, to which I noted this was unlikely and more probably a Styrian blade ( as best as I can see no suggestion of Lvov production). The exacavations at Beretschko from the 1651 battle provided about 41 sabres, three of which I believe were this type. Obviously the Polish-Lithuanian types suggest use by probably both Polish forces and Zaporozhian.As this host was also largely comprised of expatriates from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth it supports that these may well have been in Cossack hands as well. Thank you again for joining us and very much look forward to your posts! All best regards, Jim |
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#34 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Poznan, Poland
Posts: 16
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Hello again. At the beginning I apologize for the delay in showing to my answer. Unfortunately, as a new member of the forum I have to wait until a moderator approves them. Surely you know these rules so please bear with me.
![]() Overall, I thank you for your kind words on my part about Navajas. It's a lot to me. I'm very glad that you like. ![]() @broadaxe Very interesting article, congratulations. You can see that you put a lot of work into it. ![]() I do not know how to translate from Hebrew to Polish is right but I saw some details that in the light of my knowledge may be controversial. Let me specify comments. - Most supplementation of the date of creation is a breakthrough classic Navajas seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. However, in the development of Rafael Martinez de Peral y Forton "Las Navajas. Un Estudio y una Colección. "I found the information that in Mexico, already in 1590, in Pueblo de Los Angeles artist producing work Navajas. Cuchillero this came to the New World from Spain. This shows that even before this year in Spain acted Cuchilleros producing Navajas. -Not all classic Navajas had bent handle, but actually it is a characteristic feature of these knives. There were many Navajas with straight handles, such as Navaja Marinera. -Most Navajas, especially in the nineteenth century did not have a lock or lock type de piston or de Varilla - something similar to slipjoint. This was a consequence penal provisions. System "carraca" was popular but not universal. - On the second picture is visible Navaja coming from France. Very characteristic for the Creators of Thiers. This is not a Spanish Navaja. On the third picture we see the French Navaja. Brand suggesting that comes with Zaragoza is false. Probably also comes with Thiers. Very sorry if you misunderstood the content of your text. The translation is terrible. I hope you do not feel offended by my comments. Of course I do not consider myself an expert - I am only a hobbyist. ![]() @Jim McDougall I will try to post some more information about these types of sabers, and can picture (if I find), but please a little patience. For now, I do not see the preview of my message and they must be approved. How do I pass my probationary period to supplement the data. In the course of my ability. Thank you for the warm welcome. ![]() Janusz |
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#35 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 332
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Janusz, I'm not offended at all. My article was a side-effect caused by preparation for two seperate exhibitions, each held 2-3 navajas, and a demand from me to submit a simple article, not in-depth, for the general art-loving public. I had the opportunity to check the items in photos in person. Navajas are not my field of expertise nor a hobby, just a point of interest in the vast ocean of arms & armor. I hope to see posts from you regarding this field in other threads, let's keep this one with the Polish saber.
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#36 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
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Below is a stunning little 7" x 9" water colour in my collections.
I understand the artist is French and it is signed and dated from the start of the 19th century. Note the 'L' guard type sabre hung from the middle horseman. The image is a little out of focus. When I have it returned from the gent who is conserving/cleaning it for me I'll try to show a little more detail on the sword. I suspect at face value they are Polish or Lithuanian Tatars though I am sure artistic license abounds....feel free to correct my attribution. Gav |
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#37 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Poznan, Poland
Posts: 16
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@broadaxe
Of course you're right. Let us return to the topic saber. ![]() I would like to show you some pictures that show this type of sword. Photos come from the books and topics dealing with the Polish sword, therefore, are images that show has just Polish sabers. The information that I could find say that the sword such as used in both infantry and cavalry (hussars, even). In the typology of penetrating marked influence each other and the formation of specific types of swords. In the middle window shows Polish uniforms (Polska), "Wschód" = east, "Zachód" = west. Image is a replica saber hilt by Andrzej Mikiciuk. Drawings and typology of the books: Włodzimierz Kwaśniewicz "1000 słów o broni białej i uzbrojeniu ochronnym" (1000 words with melee weapons and protective armor) and Wojciech Zabłocki, "Cięcia prawdziwą szablą " (Cuts a real sword). Drawings showing the Polish infantry from the seventeenth century and the Polish nobleman found on the web. |
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#38 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,893
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Thank you so much Janusz for the outstanding detail in illustrations, and especially for citing the sources, something too often overlooked in contributions. Extremely impressive reproduction example posted, and my compliments on your text, knowing you are using a translator I can appreciate the extra effort in the dramatic syntax improvement.
All very best regards, Jim |
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#39 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Poznan, Poland
Posts: 16
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Hi Jim
![]() I just hope that my text is at least partly understandable. Unfortunately, the same I can not check. ![]() |
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#40 |
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 332
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Here is an old thread, close to the subject: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=759
And from another forum: http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewto...er=asc&start=0 http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewto...er=asc&start=0 |
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#41 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Poznan, Poland
Posts: 16
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Szabla husarska (Hussar Saber) is without a doubt the queen of Polish sabers! Beautiful and highly functional. Besides an excellent weapon. But the most I like the final version, with the handle closed.
Great articles and texts. Thank you. ![]() Ps. And if you liked my article about this sword? I'm curious opinion. ![]() |
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#42 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 206
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The first results of my work.
Pommel "before": |
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#43 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 206
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Pommel "after":
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#44 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
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Hello and welcome to the Forum. What a superb website! you post at http://www.navaja.pl/roznosci/76-szabla-husarska.html Here is all the information needed to begin looking at the replacement restoration hilt . Restoring the hilt following as exact a copy as possible or bringing up an old damaged hilt requires the same formula... "It should always be possible to return to the start point having caused no damage to the original piece" . Provided care is taken and that a basic programme of restoration steps is followed the weapon should be presentable at the end of the work and more or less indistinguishable from an original. Naturally, for those people who are not so handy with workshop practice the alternative is to leave it alone or have it done by an expert. It is good to see the originator return to Forum where our enthusiasm, leadership and knowledge can assist and promote all aspects therein..through open discussion; always.. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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#45 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,893
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Janusz, I have been entirely remiss in not revisiting this thread and I just viewed your attached article....entirely excellent!!!! Thank you so much for posting this and also for sharing the outstanding work you are doing in restoring this sabre.
As Ibrahiim has expertly noted, it is a delicate task, but of such profound importance to carefull restore these weapons so they can be preserved properly. I very much agree that keeping your progress updated will be greatly appreciated. The history of the Polish Winged Hussars has always been a personal favorite for me, and I know many here who are also deeply intrigued by the colorful history of the Polish cavalry. We have long been aware of the key influences of the weaponry and style they have had on the development of cavalry in the west, and always look forward to learning more. Your work is truly an inspiration ! All very best regards, Jim |
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#46 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Poznan, Poland
Posts: 16
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Cześć
![]() I'm sorry that I wrote not so long. I was very busy working on my site and noticed no response. ![]() Ibrahiim and Jim. Thank you very much for your warm words about my article. I'm very glad that you liked it. Cold steel is my interest margin (as I wrote earlier), the most interested in knives, especially Spanish Navajas. Article about hussar saber was ... from the heart, so to speak. ![]() ![]() Jim Polish Winged Hussars are the subject of pride in my country. One of the most effective formations in the history of Polish military. In addition to looking beautiful. In Poland, almost every boy and man had heard of hussars, even if it is not interested in this temat. Around this formation accumulated many myths and controversies. Even the famous wings. Still not sure whether they really were used in battle. Not all hussars wore them. Some wore only one wing. Military historians and enthusiasts still argue. Images showing the hussars with two huge wings represent the formation of a time when its military power collapsed. She then served as a representative role. Unfortunately, the country was rapidly failing, and with it the hussars. In any case, at the time of its heyday it was certainly one of the best cavalry in this part of Europe (if not in all Europe). Fast, agile, well-armed and trained with great tactics reigned supreme on the battlefields. Aroused fear among opponents. For the first 100 years (more than) its existence does not suffer any defeat. Later, it is true there have been its failure (rare), but they resulted from misuse or inability of the formation commanders. Only the Polish State crisis brought the twilight of this formation. Well, changing tactics and the conditions on the battlefields of course. Returning to the topic thread. Hussars were using different types of swords, a Hungarian-Polish, hussar saber, other different types (for example, a semi-closed handles), and later karabela. The latter was undoubtedly the most popular sword of the Polish nobility. Acted as both a representative and combat. I plan to write well about karabela, but it is only in the future. ![]() Pozdrawiam serdecznie (Best regards) Janusz |
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#47 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 88
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lovely old sword why not look for an original handle,it might take a while but maybe some one in the forum has such a thing ,cant hurt to ask regards napoleon
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#48 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 206
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restoration is in process I will post some pics with the interim results of the work shortly |
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#49 |
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 206
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here are some pics
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#50 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 206
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here are some pics
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#51 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1
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Gentlemen,
Trying to establish whether the sabre is Polish or Ukrainian is a bit tough. The type of blade and the handle is of Polish type but it could have been used by anyone within the Sarmathian culture. (Sarmathian Culture - I mean the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth of XVI-XIXc that Ukraine was a part of). Big part of Cossacs were part of the State Register - which means they received money from The State to purchase a saddle, "uniform", guns, powder, tobacco, to support a horse etc. Other Cossacs would be hired by big landlords and equipped in a uniform fashion, where the colors of their garments would be identical and the weapons would follow an identical design (made usually by one manufacture belonging to the landlord). There were other cossacs as well who fought for expanding of the State Register. They were not a part of any state or private structure and wore any weapon that was in use in the region back then, which could have been Polish, Persian, Turkich, Indian, Georgian, German - whatever. Plus! If not fo Cossacs, Austria would be a muslim country (Polish, Lithuanian forces saved Vienna in 1681) because nobody in the world did a better job fighting Turks. The natural consequence of the military escapades against Turks was an abundance of oriental artifacts (weapons included) all over Poland, Ukraine and Lithuania. Generating a new brand of Ukrainian Sword is not so easy because the Sarmathian culture - uniting at that time Poles, Ukrainians, Lithuanians did not really vary from one region to another. You could see that Hungarians were a bit different in their "practice" of Sarmathism. Even that is not apparent at the first glance. It is a bit like trying to define an Austrian sub-type of blue jeans. Whatever we say Blue Jeans are American pants no matter who wears them. Regards, Zekir P.S. The sword is fantastic. It was an expensive artifact judging from the form of the blade. The weapons distributed by landlords to their cossacs are very practical but simple. This particular weapon belonged to a nobleman (Pole, Lithuanian, Hungarian or Ukrainian). |
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#52 |
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 206
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Thank you, Zekir!
Here are some pics of the blade after desalting and Dremel steel brush cleaning |
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#53 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,098
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I fear that your restoration approach with this blade may have been far too aggressive...
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#54 | |
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 27
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Coin silver has a relatively low melting point. Zinc is even lower. If you are really desperate and have the resources it might be possible to use these metals in sequence. Even an electroplate could be used to fill the final top layer of a filled blade. After finishing the blade would merely look "old and not maintained" instead of like a total disaster. The object is to merely restore the shape and appearance to make a more presentable wall display. |
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#55 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 206
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![]() Blade is heavily pitted. I've just deasalt it in the distillated water and clean it gently enough. Now I'm going to process it in the tannin solution (corrosion inhibitor). |
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#56 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
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![]() Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 29th January 2012 at 05:21 PM. |
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#57 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 206
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Blade was already damaged because saber was dug up. Desaltination is a necessary procedure to prevent further corrosion of the metal. I've just removed with dremel brush mellowed rust from the surface of the blade. Deep caverns already were on the blade when I get it into my hands. |
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#58 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,098
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I am not sure that there is ever a time when it is a good idea to go at an old blade with a steel brush on a dremel. I am not opposed to restoration of old blades, but in my view the least invasive approach is generally that best one. My own viewpoint is a bit different from fspic as i believe that for me the object is not to merely create a more attractive wall hanging. Some of these old blades we collect are irreplaceable pieces of history. In my own collecting experience i therefore believe that i have a certain obligation to preserve this history for study and a better understanding of our past. I am not opposed to cleaning up old blades and fittings to give them the appearance that they once had at the height of their use, but i think that with a blade such as this where the corrosion has reached a certain level, the best thing we can do is to stabilize the blade so that no further damage takes place.
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#59 | |
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 27
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#60 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,098
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We all collect for different reasons and all of them are valid. Some swords can be eye candy for proud display, but it it not what directs me to collect them. Last edited by David; 30th January 2012 at 03:05 PM. Reason: spelling correction |
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