Islamic Crossbow?

[B.I]

thank you jens,
could you please post the two drawings from haiders book. i can try and trace the manuscript here and find the reference.
attached is a persian inlaid silver bottle from the 13thC, in the freer gallery of art.
this is a good start but much more is still needed and much appreciated, as ever.

[B.I]

jens,
the image from firearms of the islamic world is great. although later, it clearly shows the crossbow being used at a developed stage, by someone that could only have been persian. it definately helps.
this shows that it was definately used and is a good introduction to begin the process of successive and comparative investigation.

[Jens Nordlunde]

The one to the left is the one from 11th century; the other one is from 15th century. Sorry for the bad pictures but they are placed very close to the spine.
To compensate for the bad quality, I also attach an Italian Walnut Stone Bow, early 17th century - although it is very late for your use.


Jens

[Marc]

Brian,
Just trying to drown you with work, you know...

About the books:
If you manage to take a peek to a facsimile copy of the Cantigas de Alfonso X (the tome in the Monasterio de El Escorial's library, IIRC) you'll find the images (Cantigas number 28, 99 and 187, crossbows in Muslim hands, there may be more). On the other hand, Soler del Campo's book may be easier to get...
The frescoes in the Torre de las Damas in the Alhambra are also shown there, though in the form of a drawing. Said drawing was done long ago by Gomez-Moreno, an Spanish arabist and archaeologist, and I seem to remember (might be wrong, here, but it can be checked) that the original frescoes are almost illegible now. They are also found in Nicolle's book. By the way, given its date of publication, I'm sure that this information must be found in other, later books by Dr. Nicolle dealing with the same subject (like "Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era", maybe, and some others) that might be easier to find.

Sorry, not images of the Nasrid crossbow that I can be sure of. The sites have information about it, one is a reference for a monography and the other is about an old exhibition that displayed it and that probably have a catalogue somewhere.

Oh, and the incident in front of Valencia is told by the King himself in his Crònica ("Chronicle"), that is quite faithful. It's not that strange, if one analyzes the circumstances, the helmet saved him from what it probably was a quite long-distance shot to start with. Besides, Jaume I, called El Conqueridor ("The Conquerer"), was also a formidable man, standing more than 2 m. tall. And he says that he had an horrible headache for several days. Maybe not really the stuff of legends... but a good deal of sheer luck, at least, well, that's for sure.

Oh, and I thought it might be worth mentioning that, IIRC, the Mamluk Sultan Baybars I, who was involved in the coup of 1250 and took later the power in Egypt in 1260 after defeating the Mongols in Ain Jalut, at some point in his career was the commander of the Mamluk units of crossbowmen.

Jens, just a small nitpick, the crossbow was well-established in Europe in the 11th c. There's for example a representation of a crossbowmen in the Beatus of Burgo de Osma dated in 1086.

P.D.

Originally Posted by B.I

but my spanish doesnt get much further than ordering a couple of beers in a bar.

Well, that's not bad at all, don't let you be led to think us Spaniards use our language for anything less important...

[fernando]

Hi B.I.
The "Cuçalarab" shown in the the aquarel nr. 85 is part of the Moors armament in the 12th century, in the occupied peninsula. It is a modern drawing, to illustrate historical research for a miniature making company. It was just to confirm ( and reconfirm ) that the crossbow, in whatever variation, was used by arabs or muslims much before the VXV century.
But certainly this this isn't what you are looking for. Nor even the attached scanning of an illumination on "Chronicles of England" by Jean Wavrin ( 1498 ).
Certainly you are close from finding what you need.

[Aqtai]

Originally Posted by Marc

...
Oh, and I thought it might be worth mentioning that, IIRC, the Mamluk Sultan Baybars I, who was involved in the coup of 1250 and took later the power in Egypt in 1260 after defeating the Mongols in Ain Jalut, at some point in his career was the commander of the Mamluk units of crossbowmen...

I'm not too sure about that. I think this belief has come about because one of Beybars' titles was El-Bunduqdari. This has often been translated as "the crossbowman" in the belief that bunduq means crossbow. Which is reasonable when you consider that the modern Arabic name for rifle is bunduqiyah. However El-Bunduqiyah is also the Arabic name for Venice and bunduq in Arabic means hazelnut. I have seen suggestions that in Mamluk times the name bunduq was actually used for pellet bows, also reasonable when you consider the size and shape of a pellet.

Beybars had this title because his first master was the emir Aydekin El-Bunduqdar, which translates either as Aydekin the pellet-bow bearer, or Aydekin the crossbow bearer, depending on how you translate bunduq. This title was a court position, and referred to the sultan's attendents. There were also silahdars, sword bearers; tabardars, axe bearers and jukandars, polo-stick bearers. Sultan El-Salih Ayyub later purchased Beybars from Aydekin, which is how he came to be one of the Bahri mamluks.

[Marc]

Aqtai:

Ah! Thank you! Learning never stops, indeed. I appreciate very much the clarification on the Baybars issue.

[Aqtai]

Originally Posted by Marc

Aqtai:

Ah! Thank you! Learning never stops, indeed. I appreciate very much the clarification on the Baybars issue.

You're welcome!

I've had a look at the Italian pellet crossbow posted by Jens again. I'm now wondering if during the Mamluk period the term bunduq actually referred to pellet-crossbows.

I'm also struck by the fact that Jens called it an Italian "walnut" crossbow, and that the word bunduq means hazelnut.

Mind you, bunduq is also the Arabic name for the Disney character "Goofy". I don't think the mamluks knew about him though...

[Jens Nordlunde]

Well actually I called it an ‘Italian Walnut Stone Bow’, and the design could suggest, that it was made for shooting stones rather than arrows. Was it?
My knowledge of crossbows is more than limited.

Jens

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Brian,
I've been following this thread with great fascination, as I admit that the crossbow or any bows for that matter, are far outside my field of study. I have learned a great deal from the fantastic and well referenced material that has been posted here, and am intrigued by your topic and especially that what you are researching may be published. It is clear that little material is available on Islamic crossbows, particularly specific references in the West. It seemed quite inevitable that with the well established Moorish/European associations the most relevant material presented would be from Spain and Portugal with the outstanding data from Marc and Fernando. Indeed all the posts have added so much pertinant data that the history of these deadly weapons becomes much more approachable.

While it appears you are searching for specific data on an example noted, I have checked through some resources that may add some data from the historical perspective. In checking "Islamic Arms & Armour" ed. by R. Elgood (London,1980), the chapter titled "Archery in the Lands of Eastern Islam" by J.D.Latham & W.F.Peterson presents interesting discussion of the various bows and thier use, but no mention is made of crossbows. The prior published work of the authors is cited as "Saracen Archery: An English Version and Exposition of Mameluke Work on Archery c.1368 AD" (London, 1970). In the content of this work, the profound religious view of the expertise of a Muslim warrior with the bow seems well qualified, and seems to concur with the reference noted in earlier post where the 'Persian' crossbow is ordered discarded and the Arab bow was to be used.

In checking further in "Armies of the Caliphs" (Hugh Kennedy, London, 2001), there is considerable detailed discussion on warfare, tactics and especially on weapons. In that chapter, while weaponry and armour is well covered, it is noted on p.105 that "...neither in the case of the Khurisaniya nor of the Abna, is there any clear discussion of bows and archery". While this is obviously a somewhat isolated note, it seemed to exemplify the seemingly limited material on this topic.

Although there appears to be considerable absence of reference to the crossbow as noted in the early Islamic literature, whether because of the general terminology or its use being deferred for Orthodox reasons, it does seem likely that the Persians may have developed interpretations. I think that Jens' reference to the technology of siege engines and catapults may hold some of the potential for this thought, as well as a reference I found concerning more ancient origins for the crossbow.
In "The Ancient Engineers" (L. Sprague de Camp, N.Y. 1960) on pp.106-107, the author notes, "...the earliest crossbow was called a 'gastrapheles' or 'belly weapon' because of the curved crosspiece at the butt end, which the arbalester braced against his chest. It was also called a hand catapult and a scorpion. Although the crossbow was well known from the 4th c. AD on, it never attained the popularity in classical times that it achieved in medieval Europe. The only detailed description of an ancient crossbow that we have is by Heron of Alexandria, who describes a rather cumbersome device with a bow of horn and the elaborate working mechanism of larger catapults".

While this material does not provide answers specifically, I am hoping it will provide perspective that will constructively add to the outstanding references already posted in this thread. I also found some additional titles that could possibly be helpful:
"Arab Archery" N.A.Faris & R.P.Elmer , Princeton, 1945
"A Bibliography of Archery" F.Lake & H. Wright, Manchester, 1974
"The Crossbow, Medieval and Modern" Sir R Payne-Gallway, London 1958
"Book of Archery" G.A.Hansard, London, 1840

With very best regards,
Jim

[Rivkin]

My memory was almost entirely right (with an exception of that I interchanged "persian" and "turkish" bows).
"The Mamluks in Egyptian politics and society" edited by Thomas Philipp and Ulrich Haarmann has an article on p.174 "The late triumph of the Persian bow: critical voices on the Mamluk monopoly on weaponry". It deals mostly with the issue that while descendants of the prophet were banned from carrying weapons, sons of idolaters (mamluks) were the only ones permitted to do so. On p.184 it discusses the crossbows - they had two names "qaws ak zaytun, qaws al jarkh, qaws al-rijl" (not bunduq) and "turkish bow". Some of these bows where possibly some sort of siege machines rather than ordinary crossbows (I can't exactly envision a crossbow firing a 90kg bolt ?).

The nomenclature of bows comes from religious discussions of Ibn al-Qayyim (d.1350) and others on whether a muslim can use weapons of non-muslims (since the prophet himself in principle did not use the weapons of kafir). Crossbows where seen as an introduction made by mamluks from the lands of kafir.

It's a very interesting article, unfortunately (or fortunately) it mostly refers to original sources in arabic with an exception of works I already cited here.

[fernando]

You can read in the "Historia Silense " ( Perez de Urbel y Ruiz-Zorrilla - pages 189-190 ) , in the year 1028 , during the conquist of Coimbra by Fernando I, the relate of the punishment inflicted to a Moor, that has killed his father in law Afonso V, with a crossbow.
These type of texts are or come from writings of the period, and there is no misinterpretation of terminology. A bow is an "arco" ( arch ) and a crossbow is a "besta" ( beast ) or whatever subnames derived from the crossbow evolution and variations.
In the French National Library of Paris, there is ( at least ) an illumination of the great siege of Rhodes, in 1480, where you can clearly see the gear of both Otoman Turks and the Knights Hospitalers ( St. John of Jerusalem ), with the Turks using a consistent shape of crossbows ( one with a highly powerfull cranequin, a ratchet device that spanned a 450 ratio tension ).
Naturally all this showering of examples don't bring a label stating " Made in Islam ", but you are getting each time closer to something solid.

[B.I]

hi all,
sorry for going absent on my own post. i seem to have walked back into some great, and very useful contributions.
jim, as you say i always thought that the greatest link would be from spain, but in my ignorance, i had not thought of portugal. i have access to saracen archery, but although i havent had a chance to access it, from previous viewings i didnt think it would yield any confirmed answers. i was looking into other things at the time so i hope i am wrong.
agtai, what you are doing is what all academics have to do. as the published accounts have produced all that they can, it is time to backtrack back into the original translations, and try and steer research past the set stumbling blocks. this has been happening for some time on the well accepted manuscripts in the hope that a re-translation may offer a different perspective. i am pleased to hear that you tackle this in the same way. i truly look forward to new finds.
krill, thanks for confirming your reference. i got the feeling this involved unpacking material and i really appreciate the effort. i will access the book and see if i can track down his references. i can get these translated, or at least read to see if they can offer any more information.
marc, your contributions have been great. you mention Cantigas de Alfonso X with illustrations. i have found this book on a few sites, but can you confirm an author. as the title is in spanish, the booksellers tend to be spanish and i would hate to buy the wrong book. i will try and send some examples for you to choose which is the correct version.
fernando, your image is wonderful. many thanks! the illustration you say is an illumination of the great siege of Rhodes, in 1480. can you confrim a date for this image? this is important and it would have to have been painted within that period. also, can you tell the the book it came from.
i really do appreciate all the help, and hope that more references will be found in time, and posted here.

[Rivkin]

B.I.: you are welcome, no problem. I've finished Burke "History of Archery" and "Turkish Archery" by Klopsteg and I have to say their opinion on what is crossbow and what is not is entirely different. Only turkish bow where the stirrup mechanism is explicitly mentioned is certianly a crossbow (such things indeed appear in the mentioned article in "Mamluks in Egyptian ..."). The rest of the bows seem to regular bows, and "foot bows", which the article takes to be crossbows, is just the way these bows where used - two legs holding the frame, two arms used to draw the string. My impression from Burke that qaws something is not related to the crossbow unless some special device used to draw the string is mentioned, so only some of them where actual crossbows.

[fernando]

It's allways a pleasure to be usefull, B.I
I found this illlumination by chance, in a book edited in portuguese, about piracy and corso.
I later found that it is included in the written account of Guillaume Caoursin, titled " Descriptio Obsidionis Rhodiae urbis " ( circa 1490 ), an eye witness of the events, actually the vice-chancelier of the Knights siege defenders at Rhodes. It is kept at the Bibliotheque National in Paris, MS lat.6067, f. 55v.
But coming to Turk crossbow version, you can also track, before these Ottomans in the Rhodes episode, already their antecessors, the Seljuks ( XI-XIII century ), having crossbowmen in their armies.
Keep Well

[RSWORD]

Brian,

I was at the bookstore today and ran across a book that may be of assistance to you. It is a current book by Dr. David Nicolle titled "God's Warriors" and researches the arms of the Crusaders and those of Saladdin's armies from the 11th to 13th centuries. There are a few references to crossbows being part of the Muslims armies. One in particular that is pictured illustrates a crossbow mounted inside a shield. Although no date is provided one has to assume it dates between the 11th and 13th century since all illustrations provided date to this period. This particular document was referenced to the Bodleian Library, Ms. Hunt 264, f. 117 Oxford England. There are a lot of great source material referenced in this book that talk about the weapons used in this early time frame. If you do not have this book, it might be worth tracking down just for the list of manuscripts with data that would appear important to your research.

Regards,

Rick

[B.I]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Brian,

I was at the bookstore today and ran across a book that may be of assistance to you. It is a current book by Dr. David Nicolle titled "God's Warriors" and researches the arms of the Crusaders and those of Saladdin's armies from the 11th to 13th centuries. There are a few references to crossbows being part of the Muslims armies. One in particular that is pictured illustrates a crossbow mounted inside a shield. Although no date is provided one has to assume it dates between the 11th and 13th century since all illustrations provided date to this period. This particular document was referenced to the Bodleian Library, Ms. Hunt 264, f. 117 Oxford England. There are a lot of great source material referenced in this book that talk about the weapons used in this early time frame. If you do not have this book, it might be worth tracking down just for the list of manuscripts with data that would appear important to your research.

Regards,

Rick

thanks rick,
i will definately look into it. oxford is not too far and even closer via a telephone first. will track down the book and check out your reference.
much appreciated.

[Aqtai]

I found Rex Smith's book, but there was no picture of a Mamluk with a crossbow.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Although this is a bit besides the question asked by Brian, I think it may be of interest. When reading ‘The Great Moguls’ by Bamber Gascoigne. Page XVIII. ‘On December 17 (1398) the army of Mahmud Shah and Mallu Khan emerged from the gates of Delhi: ten thousand horses, forty thousand foot and a phalanx of the dreaded elephants, clanking forward in their armour and with long swords bound to their tusks. On their backs were fortified turrets bristling with archers and crossbowmen and even specialists using primitive rockets and devices for slinging hot pitch. But this straightforward Indian magnificence was no match for unorthodox cunning. By the end of the day Mahmud and Mallu had fled back into the city and straight out again the other side, and the victorious Timur was pitching his camp by a large reservoir outside the walls.’

Page 11. ‘Through the winter of 1500 Babur was secure in Samarkand, but the following spring Shaibani Khan returned to besiege him. Babur again pitched his tents on the roof of the college, from which advantage point he directed operations – and he claims even to have done effective work from there with a crossbow when a party of Uzbegs had slipped into the city and were trying to storm his headquarters – but Shaibani Khan was more interested in starving out the garrison.’

It is interesting to note, that the Indians did use crossbows rather early, although it is the first time I have seen any mention of it, the same goes for Baburs use of a crossbow in Samarkand.

Sorry Gentlemen, no photos from the place of scene – only these quotations.

[B.I]

its all helpful jens.
i must admit i cant help chuckling when anyone references bamber gascoigne, but i'm afraid its a very british joke.
bamber gascoigne is legendary over here for presenting a very popular university quiz on primetime tv. no idea how long he id it, but would think maybe 20 years, over the 70's and 80's. anyone that is 30+ will know who he is and because he was so iconic, he is almost at cult status here.
what no one actually knows is that he was a writer first and his book 'the great moghuls' is a great read and maybe the best book on an overall moghul history. not in depth of course, as its a 250 page paperback, but its very easy to read and gives a great base knowledge to expand from. i still re-read mine every few years (bad memory). his passion was always moghul art and architecture (and history) and he wrote a number of article for the V&A as well. i highly recommend his book for anyone who wants knowledge without the headache of hardline academia.

[Jens Nordlunde]

If you take ‘The Book of the sword’ by Richard F. Burton, you can on page 19, note 6, read this. The crossbow is apparently indigenous amongst various tribes of Indo-China, but reintroduced into European warfare during the twelfth century (Yule’s Marco Polo, ii, 143).

Note 1 on page 37 also mentions a crossbow from Benin, and lastly on page 165 the crossbow is mentioned again at the bottom of the page.

The first, note 6, is interesting as it goes back to the twelfth century – if this is correct that is.
I don'r know which edition of Marco Polo Burton is refering to, be course in my copy there is no mention of a crossbow on page 143 in volume II.

[B.I]

hi,
i have been meaning to revive this post for some time, but the thought of dredging back through my notes was too daunting. i would like to thank everyone that helped, especially marc who continued to find some great information. i do have a few more questions, mainly to confirm and expand what already been discussed.

marc -
you mentioned Cantigas de Alfonso X showing muslims carrying crossbows. has this been published in any form that i can access?
also, is there an illustration anywhere of the frescoes found in the Torre de las Damas and do they indeed show mounted crossbowmen?
and you mentioned the death of King Jaume I of Aragon. is this legend or can i find a published account. i did search for a while, but only found reference of his death, and no actual details. is there a book i can find?
the treatise from 1180 written by Al-Tartusi - can i find this published anywhere to see the reference to crossbows.
is the facsimile copy of the Cantigas de Alfonso X available anywhere (British library - or better to buy?)
also, you said -
The frescoes in the Torre de las Damas in the Alhambra are also shown there, though in the form of a drawing. Said drawing was done long ago by Gomez-Moreno, an Spanish arabist and archaeologist, and I seem to remember (might be wrong, here, but it can be checked) that the original frescoes are almost illegible now. They are also found in Nicolle's book.do you mean the frescoes are shown in soler del campos book? also, which nicholle book are you refering to?
also, is is worth tracking down soler del campos book? are the illustrations clear enough to make out the crossbow?

fernando -
you mentioned "Historia Silense " ( Perez de Urbel y Ruiz-Zorrilla - pages 189-190 ) is this in portuguese? do you have this publication and could you scan the relevant pages (inc title page)? this would be of great help, and i could get it translated here.
also, you said -
In the French National Library of Paris, there is ( at least ) an illumination of the great siege of Rhodes, in 1480, where you can clearly see the gear of both Otoman Turks and the Knights Hospitalers ( St. John of Jerusalem ), with the Turks using a consistent shape of crossbows ( one with a highly powerfull cranequin, a ratchet device that spanned a 450 ratio tension ).you also showed the illustration, but is there any more details (artist, date) on this painting? can you let me know the book the image came from?

krill - your references were great and i am tracking them down.
again, thanks to everyone else. this post provided enough information to answer the question and the sources tapped into were astounding.

[Marc]

Hello, Brian.

Ok, let's see...

Originally Posted by B.I

marc -
you mentioned Cantigas de Alfonso X showing muslims carrying crossbows. has this been published in any form that i can access?

Yes, it's a well-studied book... but not from the point of view of military matters. So, in many of the published works related to it you can't be sure the illuminations you're interested in are in fact reproduced. Your best bet is a facsimile of the original illuminated manuscript (held at the El Escorial Library), but these tend to be... well, quite extremely expensive. Also, the book by Álvaro Soler del Campo is absolutely out of print, near-impossible to get. You can try, if you want, maybe you're luckier than me:
SOLER DEL CAMPO, Álvaro. "La evolución del armamento medieval en el reino Castellano-Leonés y Al-Andalus (Siglos XII-XIV)", Ed. by Servicio de Publicaciones del E.M.E (Colección Adalid, #33), Madrid, 1993.
ISBN: 84-86806-44-5
But I wouldn't hold my breath.

Nonetheless, I think the best course of action is the following: I'll try to photocopy the relevant figures in the book, together with the related text (in Spanish, I'm afraid) and send them to you. The images are small, in b&w, and, sincerely, quite bad overall. But should be OK if strictly for reference purposes. If you want better images, I found that there's what seems to be a good facsimile of the Cantigas original book in the BL:

Here's the reference

Next:

also, is there an illustration anywhere of the frescoes found in the Torre de las Damas and do they indeed show mounted crossbowmen?

Yes, they're mounted crossbowmen. As far as I know there's only one illustration of these frescoes: the pencil sketch done by Gómez Moreno at the end of the 19th c. It is the one you'll find reproduced everywhere. I have it Soler del Campo's Book and some other sources, I'll photocopy it for you. Funny how things go... the drawing was done by Gómez Moreno senior, a painter and proto-archaeologist. His son was a famous and prolific archaeologist, and I went a couple of weeks ago to Granada to research his personal archives, now in a Foundation that bears his name, and got a book about Gómez Moreno senior only to have a better example of these drawings...


Next:

and you mentioned the death of King Jaume I of Aragon. is this legend or can i find a published account. i did search for a while, but only found reference of his death, and no actual details. is there a book i can find?

Yes. The incident with the crossbow bolt is described in the King's own words in a Crònica (Chronicle) written (or made written) by himself. It is also known as Llibre del Feyts or "Book of the Deeds". There's some English translations, I found one in PDF for you here. Look at chapter/paragraph number 266 (page 136), where the mentioned incident is described. If you look for the word "crossbow" in the text some other references of thier use in Muslim hands could appear, tough I think the majority of them relate to its use by Christians.

the treatise from 1180 written by Al-Tartusi - can i find this published anywhere to see the reference to crossbows.

I'm sorry, no idea, here, but there is an article (in French, I'm afraid), by Claude Cahen that might be of interest. I'ts published in the Bulletin d’études orientales, and it's entitled Un Traité d’armurerie compose pour Saladin. [On the treatise of Murḍā ibn 'Alī al-Ṭarsūsī contained in Bodleian MS. Hunt. 264. With extracts.]. The reference I found in the BL is here

I would like to, again, strongly recommend you to take a look at the article I referenced you here as it deals with the references to the crossbows in a Moorish manuscript on archery, the original text of which is dated to around 1069-1091. The PDF version of this article is here

is the facsimile copy of the Cantigas de Alfonso X available anywhere (British library - or better to buy?)

See above for the reference to an exemplar in the BL

also, you said -
The frescoes in the Torre de las Damas in the Alhambra are also shown there, though in the form of a drawing. Said drawing was done long ago by Gomez-Moreno, an Spanish arabist and archaeologist, and I seem to remember (might be wrong, here, but it can be checked) that the original frescoes are almost illegible now. They are also found in Nicolle's book.do you mean the frescoes are shown in soler del campos book? also, which nicholle book are you refering to?

See also above. The Nicolle's book is the one I referencied in my first post:
NICOLLE, David. "Early Islamic Arms and Armour", Ed. by Instituto de Estudios sobre armas antiguas, Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Científicas, Madrid(?), 1976.
Also absolutely out of print, I'm afraid.

Pleas, give me a couple of weeks to gather all the information I said I would send you, and you'll have it there. I’m swamped in work, right now.
Feel free to e-mail me for any details about the shipping…

[fernando]

Sorry for the late reply
I thaught you were not coming back because you had enough material for you work on the Islamic crossbow, and i didn't check your recent posting.
Not that this is dramatic, as Mark's huge amount of information covers by far my humble contribution to the subject.
I have being trying for the last three days to spot again the web page about the narration of the torture inflicted to that Moor crossbowman, to insert it here for you. I don't remember whether it was in English, Spanish or Portuguese, and probably ununderstandable to you. I rather tell you here that "Historia Silense" is a sort of Epic of the Spanyards, in the period of the Reconquest of the Iberian Peninsula from the Moors.
... Eventually the quoted events in 1028 took place in cities of the Portugal region, but this was still a County, under Spanish rule, only becaming a Kingdom 1139 ...
This cronicle was written by a Spanish anonimous, eventually a Monk, around 1115, and was ( again?) edited in 1959 by Perez de Urbel and Ruiz Zorrilla, also eventually Monks.
This must be a current and acquirable book ... if ever you get it, or if you get copies of pages 189-190, i have no problem to translate them for you, or rather Mark will.
Also if you search the Web on Alfonso V de Leon, father in law of King Fernando I de Castela, you will spot several quotations, leaving no doubt that he was killed in 1028 ( some say 1027), by a bolt shot from the walls of Viseu, during its siege. This archer must be the guy that was tortured by Fernando I, whom was sieging Coimbra, some fourty miles away, and also a target in the same campaign. In pages 189-190 of the cronicle, there must be a closing link.

I have posted a reply on the Rhode Siege Illumination right after your previous question, which i recall here:

I found this illlumination by chance, in a book edited in portuguese, about piracy and corso.I later found that it is included in the written account of Guillaume Caoursin, titled " Descriptio Obsidionis Rhodiae urbis " ( circa 1490 ), an eye witness of the events, actually the vice-chancelier of the Knights siege defenders at Rhodes. It is kept at the Bibliotheque National in Paris, MS lat.6067, f. 55v.
But coming to the Turk crossbow version, you can also track, before the Ottomans Rhodes episode, already their antecessors, the Seljuks ( XI-XIII century ), had crossbowmen in their armies.

I take this chance to refine a statement i made in a previous posting, about crossbow and bow being undistinguishable in some ancient languages:

These type of texts are or come from writings of the period, and there is no misinterpretation of terminology. A bow is an "arco" ( arch ) and a crossbow is a "besta" ( beast ) or whatever subnames derived from the crossbow evolution and variations..

Amazingly the portuguese word for Beast and Crossbow is written the same way: Besta. The different sounding of the "e" makes it either be the actual Besta=Beast ( from Latin Bestia=Animal ) or Besta=Crossbow ( from Latin Ballista (( like for Balistic=Projectile throwing )).Reason why it's called Ballesta in Spanish.). Tricky situation, even for the common Portuguese.
But distinguishably a Bow is an "Arco" ( Latin Arcu - Arquu=Vault ), both in Castilian and Portuguese.

I have found meanwhile some other web sources. If i filter out something solid in them, i will post it in this thread.
Keep well.
Fernando

[Aqtai]

I got David Nicolle's "Acre 1291" last week, I was flicking through it today, when I found this:



According to the caption it is a "Mamluk enamelled glass flask" in the British Museum.

The same book also had this picture:
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/607...anjaniq8be.jpg

[fernando]

So there is a modern publication on The great siege of rhodes ... certainly with that illumination with the Turks using crossbows..


http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...roduct-details

[B.I]

i continue to be both impressed and staggered by the information uncovered on this post. none of the sources referenced are common, nor easily accessed and it shows the seriousness of the forum members.

fernando -
thank you for expanding your information. the reason i had let the post 'die out' is because we had uncovered a fair amount of information, and i was waiting for the researcher to come back from france to hand it over to him. he is very happy with the information, but jist needs 'back-up' if he is to use any of it. could be please tell me the source of your mention of the seljuks having crossbows, before the ottoman illustration.
thanks for the book link, and i will order a copy and hand it over (with an invoice!). the article marc found also referenced the crossbow with a number of spanish terms - the foot bow, the foreign bow and the complicated bow. the 'beast' is a good thing to look out for when i am picking through foreign texts to see what i am going to give in for translation.

aqtai -
this research was already started by someone, and he had found the british museum bowl and inserted it in his file. (i wasnt aware of this when i first started the post). still, a great find though and much appreciated.
also, the illumination you linked from david nicholles book is useful, even though its a seige engine. the concept is still similar and maybe this can be used in this manner. thanks.

marc -
as fernando said, a wealth of fabulous information.
i will track down the BL books next time i am there (including the french article you mentioned). it isnt easy getting things copied there, and i hope i can get the information i need without having to type it out myself (not an option - i am slow in english....but spanish!!!)
the kings chronicle in pdf is a great find and i will print it out and hand it in.
the article from the madrid university is fabulous (i think) and i have handed it in for translation. just picking out bits, it seems there is much direct information and i look forward to recieving it back in english. do you know the author?
i can easily get hold of a copy of nicholles book, as its on most of the arms libraries i use and i will chase it up. i have had some time off (playing of course) and so it will be a week or so before i can take more time off to pursue the information in places other than my computer, but i look forward to showing anything new here.
i look forward to the information you are sending (especially the frescoes - even in poor quality), when you have time. believe me, i understand how hard it is to fit in any extra research as i struggle myself.

agian, much appreciated to all.

[fernando]

Just look what i came across with:

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian...ambra_ma25.htm

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian...ambra_ma26.htm

It's a pitty, there's something wrong with the attachment uploader ... these pictures are great.

[fernando]

There you are

[Aqtai]

Nice pics Fernando.

The arabesque decoration is a bit "neutral" though, i.e. it doesn't look specifically Islamic. Do you have any more info about this fine weapon?