Tulwar-hilted kukri information

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Norman,
Very well specified observation, and nicely explained. I couldnt agree more, and semi circular 'ended' does not seem to correspond to the basic shape of the kukri.
In one of my earlier posts I was trying to discover what the significance of the angled and fishtail style tip at the end of the kora might have been. I can understand the widened and heavier end lending to the force of the cut, much in the way of the yelman, however, since the end or tip of the blade has no practical purpose, why the dual concave curves? It would seem that the purpose could only be symbolic as the tip of the sword is technically not used.
Could semi-circular end refer to the curved shape (s) at the end (tip) of the sword? Could earlier koras have had a single curve rebating the end of the widened tip?
The kukri blade has always appeared to me essentially a leaf shape, and I agree, the term semi circular I suppose might be the overall line of the weapon from pommel to to tip.

All best regards,
Jim

[fearn]

Hi Jim,

I'd point out one wee little detail that we've all been forgetting. Alexander's army wasn't the only way the khukri could have gotten to Nepal.

See, I was thinking about two disconnected facts. One is that the kopis is essentially the falcata, a Iberian Spanish design. In fact, there's a bunch of badly defined, forward curving, one and two-handed weapons from Iron Age Europe (falx, falcata, sica, rhomphaeia, etc). Some of these undoubtedly looked like the kopis, some did not.

Then there are those mummies they found in the Tarim Basin of the Xinjiang desert. Those mummies date from 1300 BCE, or Bronze Age.

No one's sure who they were. Aryans?

The one thing that is certain, there were people moving back and forth on the predecessors of the Silk Road from at least 1300 BCE, so that gives us roughly 2000 years to transfer the kopis design to Nepal, assuming that the Nepalese didn't invent it independently, or get the idea from a Turkish yataghan somewhere along the line.

That's a lot of time to transfer an idea, I think.

F

[fearn]

Hi All,

Separate thought, separate post. Assuming the "kora" was the original national weapon of Nepal, and assuming it was replaced by the Khukri, I can offer a couple of reasons why this would happen, both of which I've learned from Himalayan Imports.

One is cost. HI uses traditional kamis, and they've occasionally made HI-style koras for the collectors. The ones they've made were two to three times the cost of a good HI khukuri.

Then there's utilitiy. I like my HI khuks as work knives. I've never had to fight with one. A "kora" looks like a nice blade for chopping heads, but so far as I can tell, it's not too good for chopping wood or peeling potatoes. And it's more expensive.

I think I can figure out why everyone has a khukuri.

My 0.00002 cents,

F

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi Jim,

I'd point out one wee little detail that we've all been forgetting. Alexander's army wasn't the only way the khukri could have gotten to Nepal.

See, I was thinking about two disconnected facts. One is that the kopis is essentially the falcata, a Iberian Spanish design. In fact, there's a bunch of badly defined, forward curving, one and two-handed weapons from Iron Age Europe (falx, falcata, sica, rhomphaeia, etc). Some of these undoubtedly looked like the kopis, some did not.

Then there are those mummies they found in the Tarim Basin of the Xinjiang desert. Those mummies date from 1300 BCE, or Bronze Age.

No one's sure who they were. Aryans?

The one thing that is certain, there were people moving back and forth on the predecessors of the Silk Road from at least 1300 BCE, so that gives us roughly 2000 years to transfer the kopis design to Nepal, assuming that the Nepalese didn't invent it independently, or get the idea from a Turkish yataghan somewhere along the line.

That's a lot of time to transfer an idea, I think.

F

Excellent Fearn, and very pertinant perspective. I agree that the kopis mystery is certainly a cause for considerable confusion in trying to determine these weapon forms origins. While it seems that it is well recognized that these various forward curved weapons from numerous cultures ...and as noted well beyond the Greek kopis, preceded the weapons seen in the Indian iconography.
The Silk Road is a very good point, and "The Mummies of Urumchi" is a great book on these mysterious Caucasian mummies found in the Tarim. I think trying to determine the direction of cultural diffusion is pretty confusing, especially from my admittedly limited understanding of archaeological methods. Still the presence of that 'traffic' which certainly carried important elements over wide range, certainly may have accounted for the arrival of such edged weapon forms in the regions discussed. I have often regarded a number of possibilities for Indian weapon forms coming from Bronze Age China, which certainly must have followed these routes.

Good points on the kukri superceding the kora also. The kukri does seem a far more effective and universally used weapon.

All best regards,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
Whilst not in any position to contribute to the historical/academic discussion I would like to point out that the quotation used from Egerton page 38, assuming that it has been quoted verbatim, that ' using their heavy semi-circular ended swords with great effect' does not immediately strike me as a reference to what I perceive as a Kukri, large or otherwise. If this was a reference to a Kukri I would think that the author would have said ' heavy semi-circular swords'. The addition of the word 'ended' in this context would certainly make me envisage the sword type that I know of as a Kora , see attached photo. I would doubt very much that he, Egerton, would have used the word 'ended' for any literary effect and that he meant exactly what he said i.e. the end of the sword was semi-circular. A Kukri has many qualities but I have yet to see one with a semi-circular end. I, of course, stand to be corrected on any or all of the aforementioned.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. My apologies Simon but 'curved short sword' and ' heavy semi-circular ended sword' do not "sound similar".

Hi Norman, thank you for the photo! I think this is the first tulwar handled kora I have seen! I agree with your comments. Also, the kora blade has a curved design clearly very different from the khukri. Not as if the khukri were a smaller version of the kora, with some changes, but another idea of design on the whole body. I personally believe the khukris could be influenced in the blade design by indian weapons, but not beign originally an indian weapon in itself.

I wonder which nepali historian discounted the article, and in which basis and arguments, and where is the source to read the argumentation. I also wouldn´t work on the assumption of the down curved blades as introduced to Nepal or India. I would begin to search if they were introduced there, or if they were a local invention. The fact that down curved blades from other places are better known or maybe older, does not mean necessarily that the design has only one origin. According with Quesada Sanz, the falcata is a weapon which has its origins in the mediterranean basin, and is not a completely original iberic development. He presents his arguments based on archaeological evidence on the book aforementioned.
Regards

Gonzalo

Regards

Gonzalo

[fearn]

Hi Gonzalo,

You're right, we can't prove the khukuri is not an independent invention on the Indian subcontinent, somewhere, in the last thousand years or so. That's quite possible.

Reminds me of some TV show I was watching that claimed that the crossbow was a chinese invention (sort of like gunpowder, but older) that traveled on the silk road to Europe. The point that Jared Diamond and others like to make is that very little in Eurasia was independently invented, be it writing, alphabets, logograms, paper, gunpowder, domesticated animals or certain forms of government, simply because there was so much trade from Europe and North Africa all the way to China, starting apparently around 1000 BCE. The amounts and routes certainly varied over time, but things and ideas traveled.

That said, I'd suggest that the we can make a pretty good case for the khukuri design dispersing east from the Mediterranean and ending up in Nepal.

One thing to remember is a khukuri, for all its virtues, isn't a perfect weapon for all situations. Nothing is. I'd bet one reason it's stayed popular in Nepal is because it fits the needs of the people well. Whether the design originated in the Himalayas somewhere, or whether it originated in the mountains of the Mediterranean basin and made the trek on someone's belt, it's well-adapted for a rural, agrarian lifestyle on the slopes.

F

[Gonzalo G]

I agree with you, Fearn, all that can be. Though it seems that Nepal is out of the commercial routes, that can be. The problem is to find evidence. I believe there is too much to discover and learn in history and archeology matters...I feel we are just beginning...too many questions unanswered, and clouding everything too many myths and speculations...The mediterranen basin is the source of the more antique cultures. But about the khukri, I believe is crucial to find out when did it appear, and how were their original versions. If it is a latter weapon, lets say 17th-18th Century, we must find its origins in more near places and weapons.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Tim Simmons]

Sorry I just cannot believe the Alexander myth. It smacks of Victorian bollocks, like Congo knives being dropped from trees "the Congolese live in trees you know" Then adopted by the "COLLECTORS" The Victornian collectors had intertests in ideas of collections from noble races. We know collector belief can become very firmly entrenched. As for visiting museums that can be purely just a collection, perhaps with a little knowledge based on the old story. Who is not going to tell the wealthy visitor what they want to hear?

The Victorians had no idea of Mohenjo-Daro when forming these ideas of Greek influence.
Just the idea that the Western world formed from Greco/Roman base has no vestige of such a splendid weapon should make one question the idea that one small pocket of people should adopt this weapon and nothing else of the culture.

In this map of Alexanders route to India he got nowhere near Napal. Why not find the Kukri {outside of British Empire production} in Pakistan and the other lands on his advance and retreat.

http://www.utexas.edu/courses/ancien....php?linenum=8

[VANDOO]

NOT MY FIELD AT ALL BUT SOME SMALL OBSERVATIONS.
THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WOULD NOT OWN A SWORD BUT EVERYONE COULD AFFORD AND NEED A WORK KNIFE. THE KUKRI IS VERY SUITED FOR THIS AND ALSO IS A VERY EFFECTIVE WEAPON. THE CURVE OF THE BLADE WOULD FACILITATE CUTTING GRAIN, RICE AND GRASS. THE WEIGHT AND CURVE ALSO MAKE IT VERY GOOD TO CLEAR A TRAIL OR CUT BAMBOO OR WOOD.
EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT A TRAINED WARRIOR YOU WOULD BE VERY GOOD AT USING THE KNIFE YOU HAD WORKED WITH MOST OF YOUR LIFE. SO IN A FIGHT WHERE EVERYONE WAS INVOLVED MOST OF THE WEAPONS WOULD BE OF THE MORE COMMON AND AFFORDABLE TYPE.
IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO CORRELATE THE RANGE OF SIZES OF KUKRI BASED ON AGE. WERE THE OLDER ONES SMALLER OR LARGER?
ONE PROBLEM IS WORK KNIVES SELDOM SURVIVE AS THEY ARE USED UP OVER THE YEARS AND WHEN THE KNIFE IS NO LONGER OF PRACTICAL USE WAS NO DOUBT TURNED IN TO THE ONE WHO MADE KUKRIES PERHAPS IN TRADE FOR A NEW ONE SO OLD ONES WILL BE RARE UNLESS USED AS BURIAL GOODS.

[fearn]

Hi Tim,

As I pointed out, Alexander's Army doesn't have to be the route by which this design dispersed. However, it does seem that the oldest versions of this type of knife appear in the Mediterranean (where, despite your skepticism, they were known as the falcata and kopis). Given that we know trade routes existed between Europe and Asia, it's possible that the kukri shape passed east, and was preserved in Nepal because it fit their lifestyle.

We can therefore argue that the design originated in Europe and was transferred East. We could also argue that it's an independent invention. There's reasonable evidence on both sides.

F

[ariel]

In many places, there are vicious arguments about ethnicity, cultural heritage, roots of artefacts etc.
For example, there is a trend in modern Russia to define "cossaks' as a separate ethnos ( absurd, if you ask me). But they seriously claim that cossacks had separate ethnic origins, material culture and, of course, weapons. Per that view, war karabela and shashka are not Polish or Caucasian in origin, but rather genuine ancient weapons attributable to the distinct Cossack ethnos.
Not being familiar with the history of Nepal, I am just curious whether there are historical tensions in pinpointing their ethnic origin to Mongoloid or Hindu cultures? If this is the case, it might color the ascertainment of Kukri vs. Kora as the "national" weapon of Nepal.
I am not trying to throw oil on the fire, but unfortunately, far too often, partisan nationalistic views obscure and distort real history.
So, please put my mind to rest, that there is nothing of that nature in the contemporary Nepalese historical research.

[sirupate]

Hello Ariel,

Whilst there is within some ethnic groups in Nepal a re-surgance of going back to their original names before they were influenced by Brahmins from India, and who took those names to gain prestige and favour, it doesn't seem to have effected the way they view the National Weapon of Nepal (the kukri/khukuri). Since this debate I have been collating views about the Khunda/Khuda from Nepal, which is proving quite interesting.

Cheers Simon

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

In many places, there are vicious arguments about ethnicity, cultural heritage, roots of artefacts etc.
For example, there is a trend in modern Russia to define "cossaks' as a separate ethnos ( absurd, if you ask me). But they seriously claim that cossacks had separate ethnic origins, material culture and, of course, weapons. Per that view, war karabela and shashka are not Polish or Caucasian in origin, but rather genuine ancient weapons attributable to the distinct Cossack ethnos.
Not being familiar with the history of Nepal, I am just curious whether there are historical tensions in pinpointing their ethnic origin to Mongoloid or Hindu cultures? If this is the case, it might color the ascertainment of Kukri vs. Kora as the "national" weapon of Nepal.
I am not trying to throw oil on the fire, but unfortunately, far too often, partisan nationalistic views obscure and distort real history.
So, please put my mind to rest, that there is nothing of that nature in the contemporary Nepalese historical research.

Actually, lets leave this entirely counterproductive perspective out of this discussion. This type of rheotoric does little to serve the study of the history and development of weapons, while certain people seem to enjoy this kind of emotionally charged 'debate'.....better left for political editorial.

Didn't we just do this?

[Emanuel]

Great discussion folks!

On pages 83-86 of "Hindu Arms and Ritual, Arms and Armour from India 1400-1865" (2004) Elgood shows a number of south-western Indian swords of the Vijayanagara period, 7th century CE. Some of these are fairly large, their blades looking like precursors to the yataghan or sossoun-pata. Elgood includes pictures of two reliefs (8.13 Gana holding a [khukri-like] sword...Pellava, mid-seventh century; 8.21 Warrior...[holding a khukri-like sword] from the sixteenth century). Unfortuantely I cannot scan them at the moment, maybe someone else can until I can do so.

My point is that there is material to support the development of the khukri on the Indian subcontinent, where the forward recurve edge has precendece. I don't see any problem with both Mediterranean and Indian cultures developing similar blades. If we take the example fo the celtic, northern Europen sax, that same shape exists in Eastern European Thracian knives, and is found again in the Arabic shafra.

The Alexander and trade routes theories seem plausible to me, but sometimes different peoples come up with similar solutions to similar problems. The top-heavy forward recurve makes a good chopper, so it shows up where a compromise between an axe and a long blade was needed. Once martial strategies and arts changed, the shape lost popularity in favour of something longer and with a straight cutting edge, as in Europe.

Just some thoughts.

[Jim McDougall]

Just saw your post Simon....nicely put!!! Thank you for this very nicely handled response, and I have very much enjoyed your sound approach to the research you are doing, avoiding such volatile distractions.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Emanuel]

Hello Simon, about the khuda/khunda/kora debate, I recall Beoram (Nepali linguist, on IKRHS) posting a number of guides to Nepali words.

Among them was

"from Old Indo-Aryan (~Sanskrit) kshura 'razor' (cognate with Greek kshuron 'razor') >
*khura > "

This word may be the root of khukuri, but maybe it's also the root for what we call a "kora" in the West. Furthermore, it seems to me that in Nepali the sound "d" and "r" are, to a certain extent interchangeable (open to correction), as in "kothimora / kothimoda" or "kaudo / kauro". Maybe khuDa is not so farfetched for khuRa > kora?

More thoughts...

Emanuel

[sirupate]

Thanks Jim

Hello Emanuel,

Beoram is quite correct with the linguistic connection, but how relevent that is, I honestly do not know.

Khuda/Khunda is pronounced Coodah, the c as in coup, I don't know how the Kora pronunciation came about? Unless that is how its spelt or pronounced in India?

With kothimora it tends to be pronounced by Gurkhas kotiemora or kotimora. I must confess to never having seen it written Kothimoda in Nepal, or in England by a Nepali/Gurkha. Once again though Kothimoda could be an Indian or Tibetan interpretation?

Kaudi seems to be the most used term in Nepal from my experience.

I hope that is of some help, cheers Simon

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually, lets leave this entirely counterproductive perspective out of this discussion. This type of rheotoric does little to serve the study of the history and development of weapons, while certain people seem to enjoy this kind of emotionally charged 'debate'.....better left for political editorial.

Didn't we just do this?

That´s right, Jim. To begin with, we must question the european ethnocentric, ideologically biased and emotionally charged 'theories' from the 19th Century (a real theory must have some logic structure and must be supported in facts showing a causal relation in time and space), to make a more scientific approach. European influences did exist, but they have to be demostrated in every case. I don't think in the future, with more advances in archeological discoveries, we cannot find some of those evidences we need. Alexander presence is a possible, but to me not a probable, cause of the down curved blades in India or Nepal. Is more consistent the probability of a development in the indian subcontinent, as Manolo said, with or without foreign influences of some kind. The roman presence in India is more consistent in any case, since although they did not invaded India, they had a continuos and relatively intense commercial contact with it, not to mention South India, which had intense contacts with the arabian peninsula from the most antique pre-islamic times, and we must remember that Yemen was an important producer of swords from which we do not have much information. This is a more plausible source of influences, and not a transitory passing of an army. Also, we have to take on account that the goorkha seem to have carried in their invassion into Nepal the kora, a down curved blade which seems to have a very different origin that of the indian area. I don't believe this kind of blade can be also attributed to greek influences. The more antique roots of our world culture and the incredible inmense commercial routes in the most remote times are suprising us every day with each new discovery in this direction. This is science.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Jens Nordlunde]

I don't know from where the kukri origins, and it may have taken a long time for it to get the form it has to day, but I have see a picture of a stone relief from a temple in south India. On the relief you see a row of soldiers with kukri like 'swords/daggers'. Sorry I can't show it, as I don't remember where I saw it, probably on Google.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually, lets leave this entirely counterproductive perspective out of this discussion. This type of rheotoric does little to serve the study of the history and development of weapons, while certain people seem to enjoy this kind of emotionally charged 'debate'.....better left for political editorial.

Didn't we just do this?

I agree completely, Jim.

Ariel, let's not go there, please.

[Gavin Nugent]

G'day guys,

I have been following this thread with great interest and been doing some reading of my own.
Please view the image attached as another possible theory behind the origins of the Kukri.
It could well have started it's life as a working blade much like the sickle mold found in China that dates from the 4th century BC.
Just some thoughts to further ponder as the moulding does look much like some of the early kukri, that is being long and narrow by profile.
The image came from a book published by the Australian Arts exhibition Corporation that was a reproduction of the same book published in China the year before, being 1976. The book was bought to print when the Archaeological finds of China travelled to Australia in 1977.

Gav

[spiral]

Originally Posted by sirupate

From a Western definition point of view you are quite correct, however in Nepal they don't quite have those defintions on handle types and weapons as a whole, and that's pretty much the mind set I now have when talking about Nepalese weaponry.

However regarding Kora, in Nepal they are not called that, they are called Khuda, so perhaps it should be khuda style handle when refering to Nepalese weapons? If one wants to be definitave in a Western collector type way?

Originally Posted by sirupate

As stated in a previous post, its not called a kora in Nepal its called a khuda,
Cheers Simon

Originally Posted by sirupate

Khuda/Khunda is pronounced Coodah, the c as in coup, I don't know how the Kora pronunciation came about? Unless that is how its spelt or pronounced in India?

That’s strange, most people we met in Nepal 4 years ago were very aware of aware of differences between kora,tulwar,shamshir , their grips &blade shapes etc.as I recall. They just didn’t bother to define kukri in the sort of detail western collectors & dealers do.

Kora or Khora are acceptable terms to me, as are khuda & khonra as are the 15 or so spellings of khukri there all correct.. After all we are not writing in Sanscrit or Devangari etc.

I would say Its probably Col.Kirkatrik who introduced the spellings khora & indeed Khookeri to the west when his work was published in 1811}.{{By William Miller of London,}
{About his mission to Nepal in 1793} He also pointed out that at that time there were 8 or 9 main languages in Nepal which may explain some people beliving khuda or Khunda to be correct at Khora or Khora incorrect.


Hope that helps a little towards finding about a few more definitive facts about these great swords of the Himalayas & where misunderstandings about British & Nepali history & translations seem to have occurred.

Spiral