War Dogs !!!

[celtan]

Spanish War Dogs were specifically bred to hunt and utterly destroy americans, english, dutch, etc. and even the very own spanish. They were Weapons of War, not lap doggies. The Perros Dogos were treated even better than the owning soldier's family, and with good reason, they often were the difference between life and death for their owners.

Las Casas was indeed an apostle for the indians, but he was quite the opossite at his arrival, and he didn't extend his mercies to his african slaves either. Most of the things he wrote about were exagerated and embellished tall tales told to him by indians he met, and heard after the umpteenth repetition and agrandizement . Fray Jeronimo Motolinia, who was Las Casas companion during the Conquest, and one of his most acerbic detractors, often stated that Las Casas never saw or was remotely close to any of the scenes he so luridly describes. Nonetheless, lies, exaggerations et al, did serve the purpose at the Cortes of having the "Laws of Indias"written protecting the Americans at least as theoretical equals of the Europeans. Of course, from the cobbled streets of Madrid and Toledo, to the mud and thatched houses of America, those edicts often did very little to protect the americans from the europeans, be them Spanish, English, French or whatever...

Virtually all of the blood and gore atributed to the Spanish come from 16th C English and Dutch propaganda, the so-called Black Legend, and have no historical basis, although they are still being repeated ad-nauseum as historical facts.

Indeed one of the reason Charles I forbade the colonization of America by his German and Dutch vassals, was because they had the quaint custom of surrounding indian villages, killing everyone inside, then taking away whatever they fancied, without any attempts to first approach the natives and asking for either surrender or "vasallaje".

The Spanish Church was horrified by this practice, since the "Indians" so killed didn't have the chance to convet to catholicism, and thus went to Hell to engross the Devil's armies.

OTOH, when you look at the European Wars in Germany, Holland, England and even in Spain (see Cathars/Albigenses), you'll see that taking whole cities (sometime from their own side) and slaughtering their inhabitants was nothing too strange. So, the Conquistadores simply brought to America the kind of War they had learnt in Europe.

Dogs were, and are still trained and used by modern governments to attack and kill enemy forces, and sometimes even defenseless civilians.
Heck, If I were in an urban or jungle combat situation, I'd love to have a Mastin beside me, the enemy's heads be darned.

Best

M

Originally Posted by pallas

Mark Derr's A Dog's History of America (North Point Press: 2004; see Washington Post book review) offers a broad portrait of the use of war dogs in the Americas. According to Derry, the Conquistadors' dogs were "specifically bred and trained to hunt down and disembowel Indians," and they followed the "practice of bringing along on any campaign chained Indian slaves as food for the dogs."


From Pestilence and Genocide (excerpted from the book American Holocaust by David Stannard, Oxford University Press, 1992: "...[Vasco Núñez de Balboa] had his own favorite dog-Leoncico, or "little lion," a reddish-colored cross between a greyhound and a mastiff-that was rewarded at the end of a campaign for the amount of killing it had done. On one much celebrated occasion, Leoncico tore the head off an Indian leader in Panama while Balboa, his men, and other dogs completed the slaughter of everyone in a village that had the ill fortune to lie in their journey's path. Heads of human adults do not come off easily, so the authors of Dogs of the Conquest seem correct in calling this a "remarkable feat," although Balboa's men usually were able to do quite well by themselves. As one contemporary description of this same massacre notes: "The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts. ...Vasco ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs."




Atrocities of the Spanish Conquistadors in the West Indies Account from Bartolome de Las Casas (missionary and conquistadore) circa 1513: "...The Spaniards with their horses, their spears and lances, began to commit murders and other strange cruelties. They entered into towns and villages, sparing neither children nor old men and women. They ripped their bellies and cut them to pieces as if they had been slaughtering lambs in a field....Most tried to flee. They tried to hide in the mountains. They tried to flee from these men. Men who were empty of all pity, behaving like savage beasts. They are nothing more than slaughterers and enemies of mankind. These evil men had even taught their hounds, fierce dogs, to tear natives to pieces at first sight...."

[David]

Is it just me Celtan or are you and Pallas perhaps missing the point of this thread.

[Gonzalo G]

Pallas, from your quotes, I see that you only have a primary source, which is Fray Bartolomé Las Casas. This quote comes from his little opuscule titled "Brevísima Relación de la Destrucción de las Indias", title which we can traslate freely as "A Very Short Enumeration of the Destruction of the Indies", which was written in 1552 (I have the complete text). Also, I don´t have any doubt about the description of the behaviour of Vasco Nuñez de Balboa. In fact, I don´t have the slightiest doubt about the atrocities, unecessary cuelties, tortures, sistematic rapes and genocide from the conquistadors, which mexicans from my generation learnt about very well from childhood in the school. I can even make a more extensive description of them, quoting primary sources from spanish and indian witness. Only in the 16th Century Las Casas calculated more than 15 million killings of indians in the Caribbean and today´s Mexico. Not to mention the epidemics, which caused more million killings, leaving uninhabited extense areas, previously very populated.

My only point was about the race of the dogs (the kind of breed), and about the killing of war prisioners. Those were you main points in your post. The spaniards do used dogs along all the conquest, in the way already described, but I question they used mainly the spanish alano (alan?), but the mastiff. And yes, when the spaniards were determined to exterminate all the population of a specific village, or only all the men, they feed the dogs with the flesh of the dead. The point which I doubt, is they used man already taken previously as prisioners, or the practice of bringing slaves to war parties only to feed the dogs. That would be "uneconomic". To the eyes of the spaniards, indians were less than animals, but they had specific utilitarian aims in their killings, independently of their cuelty. In battle or at the end of battle they killed for a specific purpose, but they take captives only when determined to use them as slaves. Their greed was superior even to their cruelty, and this is much to say. But if you refer to war prisioners as the men surrendered and inmediately after battle, I agree with you. It seems that there is no much difference among this statements, but I only wanted to precise this points, as I am concerned with historic exactitude. It must be also said that the spanish crown and many churchmen had a deep distaste for many of this practices, and legislative measures, uneffective to a certain point, were taken to stop them. Maybe you can see this as too "academic", but many myths are reproduced in the taste of the "tremendist" or in the "justificationist" inclinations of some people. Maybe my companion forumites see me as too punctillous, but I am convinced that this a forum with a good academic level, and a space where we can discuss historic subjects pertaining to the matter of the threads, in order to know better. Thank you for your attention.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Gonzalo G]

Sorry David, I didn´t see your post when writting my last one. It was not my intention to be off-topic, but you know how digressions are made on the road.
My regards

Gonzalo

PD: Just to be precise: there is not any Jerónimo de Motolinia. Did you mean Fray Toribio de Benavente "Motolinia", or Fray Jerónimo de Mendieta, Manolo? Just to be precise, as I don´t mean a "cheap" attack to your erudition.

[Gonzalo G]

Some of my war dogs:

[inveterate]

Gonzalo, The top dog looks like an Aussie "Blue Heeler" or Cattle dog is it? Rod

[Freddy]

Police dogs are considered as weapons in Belgium. They can make a difference.

And yes.....it hurts, even with the suit on !





And here he finds the 'bad guy'



Meet Spike ! He's Wolf's back-up : a Malinois weighing about 45 kgs.

[fernando]

Hi David,

Originally Posted by fernando

......Or War Reindeer perhaps ?.....Fernando.
Kind Regards David

Originally Posted by fernando

David, how dare you ?
Now you owe me image rights.
Fernando

It was not my intention to make you think you have offended or upset me.
I swear i was really amazed with the idea that you thought i was an actual war reindeer .
I am frustrated; i thought Portuguese humour was closer to that of Brits .
I wil try and do better, next time .
Fernando

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Meet Spike ! He's Wolf's back-up : a Malinois weighing about 45 kgs.

He's very cute! Looks like Scooby-Doo

[celtan]

I'm perfectly aware of the thread's aim. I just couldn't remain silent after reading Pallas.

Regarding Gonzalos's mexican apologetic views of the bloody Aztecs and his mindless repetition of anti-spanish Black Legend propaganda, already accepted as such by modern historians: I don't think this is the proper place to discuss those. But I'm fully able and willing to do so through PMs, or even in a separate thread.

Best

M

Originally Posted by David

Is it just me Celtan or are you and Pallas perhaps missing the point of this thread.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi David,






It was not my intention to make you think you have offended or upset me.
I swear i was really amazed with the idea that you thought i was an actual war reindeer .
I am frustrated; i thought Portuguese humour was closer to that of Brits .
I wil try and do better, next time .
Fernando

Hi Fernando,

It is a funny picture You don't look too excited to be a reindeer!
I think David (Katana) should have to post one of himself in a similar novelty garb!

Its only fair

David?

Regards
Gene

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Fernando,

It is a funny picture You don't look too excited to be a reindeer!...

I was sad i wasn't having any calls

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... I think David (Katana) should have to post one of himself in a similar novelty garb!
Its only fair
David? ...

Yeah, why not ?
C'mon David, show us what you are worth .

Fernando

[katana]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Fernando,

It is a funny picture You don't look too excited to be a reindeer!
I think David (Katana) should have to post one of himself in a similar novelty garb!

Its only fair

David?

Regards
Gene

Originally Posted by fernando

Yeah, why not ?
C'mon David, show us what you are worth .

Fernando

Not ganging up on me .....are you ?? .....

Fair enough ....( )......I'll see what I can do

Regards David

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Whoa! Hope that Beastie looks like Dad and especially Granddad! Awesome dogs!

thanks bill! seriously, they wouldn't hurt a fly. they'll lick you with reckless abandon tho.


oh, and here's Rajah, our not-so-little lap dog:




and Pickles, the designated house 'cat':

[Rick]

They are wonderful dogs that have gotten a bad rap .
Nice pups Ron .

[pallas]

it wasent my intent to start an uproar


and gonzalo, the alano is a mastiff, albeit smaller than the mastin espanol.

it seems both the alano and mastin espanol where used in the conquest of the new world, but the evidence (the existing molosser/mastiff breeds in the former spanish empire in the new world/canary islands, all of which are short coated and strongly resemble the alano rather of the huge somewhat shaggy coated mastin) points to the alano being in wider use than the mastin.

i also wasent trying to say the spanish were any more brutal than any other colonial power, i know that the same kind of warfare was common in parts of europe.......its just that the spanish wardogs are more "celebrated" if you like, than those of the english, french, dutch or others.


again, no intention of causing offense.


anyways:

http://bttbab.com/dogs_of_war.htm


http://bttbab.com/Spanish%20Influence.htm


some interesting reading on how the spanish dogs in florida/georgia influenced later american dogs

[katana]

Well here we have my 'animal army'





Sky and Barney .....Barney is a 'failed' military 'black project' in genetic splicing of a Ewok and dog ......not particularly fearsome but he gets quite agitated when he sees an Imperial storm trooper.

Sky is a 2000 series K9 attack model ( this model has the electronically enhanced vision), from the year 2234, sent back by the 'machines' to annihilate mankind ....so far she hasn't done a very good job.....I think her 'programming' is corrupted ....unless her true mission was to lick mankind to extinction.







Then we have the 4 commando cats ....each with its own 'specialist camouflage' for differing terrains, Harley (black cat) is particularly useful as a Ninja / Night-time infiltrator, the fourth cat, 'kitten' was out on a 'secret op' ......so missed the 'photo call'

continued next post...

[katana]

Charlie 'piggy' Guinea Pig is extremely dangerous and in between missions has to be caged.....was once demoted to the 'Catering Corp'.....but ate more food than he prepared




Tilly 'bomber' budgie seen here in her flight simulator.....provides air cover ....either 'pin point' accurate 'droppings' ......or all out 'shock and awe' ....especially after a large meal





And finally.....our sub mariners ......3 Goldfish ....code named G1, G2 and G3 these operatives are pretty fearsome.....for fun... they pick fights with Piranha and antagonize the occasional 'Great White'......perhaps I'm feeding them too much protein

Did have a tarantula ....unfortunately it died shedding its skin.....so the 'Armoured Division' is now defunct. However I did keep his 'armour' after a previous 'shed' .......still frightening enough for the ladies....and arachnaphobics........this 'old soldier' still doing his duty ...even after death ....now there's loyalty




Land, Sea and Air ....want a war .....bring it on


Regards David

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by Rick

They are wonderful dogs that have gotten a bad rap .
Nice pups Ron .

thanks.
yup, sad really. they're the latest versions of what the dobermans and GSD went through in the past decades.

btw, i couldn't believe how big ridgebacks get til i saw my friend's dog. they're pretty awesome as well!

[Spunjer]

david,
i'd like to be in the same bunker as you when the zombie apocalypse arrives. you seem to have everything covered.

it's coming people!

[kronckew]

my warrior, Blue, is faster than yours - and better armed!


watch out for his sister Millie too!

[fernando]

Hi David,
One Division you don't have is inteligence.
Here you are Mata Hari at her best, doing poledance for the enemy's General.
Click on the image ... hope it works.
Fernando

.

[fernando]

Who said pitbulls are bad people?
Fernando

Just click on the image ... again i hope it works

.

[katana]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi David,
One Division you don't have is inteligence.
Here you are Mata Hari at her best, doing poledance for the enemy's General.
Click on the image ... hope it works.
Fernando

.

.....does that mean she's a polecat ......

[David]

Originally Posted by fernando

Who said pitbulls are bad people?
Fernando

Just click on the image ... again i hope it works

.

Geez, don't these animals know dinner when they see it!

[Atlantia]

Ok, thats it!
Nobody beats 'Pacman' for underwater warfare

[Rick]

Unemployed War Dogs can turn to stealing .............

http://www.flixxy.com/shoplifting-dog.htm

[Maurice]

Here are my two ,sweet, doggies, my kampilan guards!
Who wants to try to get the kampilan with bare hands, may have it without paying (kamp is in swap forum) .....



Maurice

[fernando]

Forget the dogs and the cats .
Just look at this (partly off-topic) bipedal .

Fernando

.

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by Maurice

Here are my two ,sweet, doggies, my kampilan guards!
Who wants to try to get the kampilan with bare hands, may have it without paying (kamp is in swap forum) .....



Maurice

wow, you have beautiful dogue de bordeaux and a bull terrier!!! what are their names, maurice, and how old are they?