Has anyone seen anything similar to this sword? - Page 2

fearn · 23rd June 2011, 04:27 PM

I've been poking around in omniglot, which has a number of scripts. I tend to agree that it's magical writing, but I don't know the system. The closest I've been able to find is the "angelic script", but it's not a match.

I suspect it's someone's magical/ritual item. It may have a masonic connection, but I'm not very confident of that, either.

My 0.00002 cents,

F

Dmitry · 24th June 2011, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Here is a link to a discussion on the parasol mark and pictures of a couple of examples.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=parasol

In my experience, you only find the fullered spine in Indian swords and occasionally in Polish/E European blades and also in Chinese blades. Given the size, blade fullering and general look I lean heavily towards this blade being Indian.

Thank you very much! It's a great link, and something I had no idea about. An umbrella and a crown, a royal symbol of Hindus [Mughals?] and an ostensibly western royal symbol are pictured together.

Jim McDougall · 24th June 2011, 08:13 AM

Gav was right, I really do love this one!!!

and it is such an anomaly, I must admit it has taken quite a bit of puzzled consideration to try to figure out what appears to be an amalgam of features, the extremely unusual hilt of a outstretched hand the most enigmatic.
I think Gav's suggestion of Hungarian is well placed, and as concurred by Rick (RSword) and Jeff, it seems to me that East European potential for this sword is very high.

In looking at the blade profile, this does indeed seem to be very close to the heavy falchion type blades that have been seen on tulwars (as pointed out to me by Gav) and were actually 'firangi' blades similar to those of N.Italy or Styria.

The note on the curious characters as mentioned by Iain, do carry certain similarities to Hungarian script, and the case for Eastern Europe is strengthened.

Regarding the hilt, with the hand, this is so unusual it would be hard to identify its specific meaning or association, however the scrolled quillon type terminal and the vestigial langet suggest some military association to its overall design. The eyelets remaining for the chainguard suggest this sword is likely hilted around mid 18th century.

Turning to the inlaid gold metal characters and the images of the winged figure surmounted by a rayed sun and the other side with what appears a Continental European type crown and a parasol, these have been placed on this blade probably European as noted.

The characters in the inscriptions seem to possibly be acrostics with these possibly Kabbalistic sigils, and magic related symbols which may have been interpolated . I have found parallels in degree to a number of the alphabet characters from Kabbala, as well as similarities to the inscription on a Bohemian court sword of early 18th century ("Catalog of European Court and Hunting Swords" Bashford Dean, N.Y. 1929, #26). The Bohemian sword is stated of the Strasbourg manner, and the characters seem to be as noted, an amalgam of symbols, sigils and characters, with the 'tau' type character matching at least one of the characters on this sword. The inlaid latten type inscription on the example posted here is reminiscent of this practice on the early Frankish swords and continued into the 17th-18th c. in many European blades.

In the inscription on the posted sword, several of the 'letters' resemble the crescent man in the moon type figure often seen in Kabalistically related 'talismanic' blades as well as the rayed sun over the winged figure in the markings. These astral features of sun, moon , stars are commonly in these 'talismanically' textured blade groupings of usually 18th century.

The parasol is truly a puzzle, as has been mentioned, being typically associated with the Mughal armouries in India. It should be noted that the parasol was also keenly associated with Ottoman armouries and is seen on a number of their weapons, and worthy of note the Ottomans were in Hungary until the beginning of the 18th century. The parasol may have other certain more ancient associations to ancient Israel as seen on coins, and while the image seen on the parasol in the markings on this blade resembles Mughal/Ottoman form, the image may be mindful of the ancient connection.
It was a fashion element signifying status and often regal association and had become a gentry device in Italy and probably these cosmopolitan centers of Europe by the late 17th century. Its placement over the crown suggests such status it would seem, much as noble ligatures over crowns in cyphers.

Several of the characters of Angelic script (created by Agrippa in the 16th c. from Greek and Hebrew letters) do correspond to some of those in the inscription here in some degree as far as I can see

while some are Kabbalistic and magical sigils in style.

While at this point it is not possible to say with any certainty what this fascinating sword is from, perhaps a fraternal or secret group or society in regions of East Europe from the latter 18th century and by the hilt elements, likely military oriented. There may be allegorical elements to the sword overall, to which more explanation may be held in the inscriptions and devices in the markings and decoration but of course, more research required!!

All the best,
Jim

tom hyle · 25th June 2011, 02:26 AM

In Europe there are a great many festivals where people, mostly as members of various committees or "societies" dress up in often rather traditional, often rather ancient and paganistic, roles.
Think "mummer"s

23rd June 2011, 04:27 PM	#31
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I've been poking around in omniglot, which has a number of scripts. I tend to agree that it's magical writing, but I don't know the system. The closest I've been able to find is the "angelic script", but it's not a match. I suspect it's someone's magical/ritual item. It may have a masonic connection, but I'm not very confident of that, either. My 0.00002 cents, F

24th June 2011, 08:13 AM	#33
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	Gav was right, I really do love this one!!! and it is such an anomaly, I must admit it has taken quite a bit of puzzled consideration to try to figure out what appears to be an amalgam of features, the extremely unusual hilt of a outstretched hand the most enigmatic. I think Gav's suggestion of Hungarian is well placed, and as concurred by Rick (RSword) and Jeff, it seems to me that East European potential for this sword is very high. In looking at the blade profile, this does indeed seem to be very close to the heavy falchion type blades that have been seen on tulwars (as pointed out to me by Gav) and were actually 'firangi' blades similar to those of N.Italy or Styria. The note on the curious characters as mentioned by Iain, do carry certain similarities to Hungarian script, and the case for Eastern Europe is strengthened. Regarding the hilt, with the hand, this is so unusual it would be hard to identify its specific meaning or association, however the scrolled quillon type terminal and the vestigial langet suggest some military association to its overall design. The eyelets remaining for the chainguard suggest this sword is likely hilted around mid 18th century. Turning to the inlaid gold metal characters and the images of the winged figure surmounted by a rayed sun and the other side with what appears a Continental European type crown and a parasol, these have been placed on this blade probably European as noted. The characters in the inscriptions seem to possibly be acrostics with these possibly Kabbalistic sigils, and magic related symbols which may have been interpolated . I have found parallels in degree to a number of the alphabet characters from Kabbala, as well as similarities to the inscription on a Bohemian court sword of early 18th century ("Catalog of European Court and Hunting Swords" Bashford Dean, N.Y. 1929, #26). The Bohemian sword is stated of the Strasbourg manner, and the characters seem to be as noted, an amalgam of symbols, sigils and characters, with the 'tau' type character matching at least one of the characters on this sword. The inlaid latten type inscription on the example posted here is reminiscent of this practice on the early Frankish swords and continued into the 17th-18th c. in many European blades. In the inscription on the posted sword, several of the 'letters' resemble the crescent man in the moon type figure often seen in Kabalistically related 'talismanic' blades as well as the rayed sun over the winged figure in the markings. These astral features of sun, moon , stars are commonly in these 'talismanically' textured blade groupings of usually 18th century. The parasol is truly a puzzle, as has been mentioned, being typically associated with the Mughal armouries in India. It should be noted that the parasol was also keenly associated with Ottoman armouries and is seen on a number of their weapons, and worthy of note the Ottomans were in Hungary until the beginning of the 18th century. The parasol may have other certain more ancient associations to ancient Israel as seen on coins, and while the image seen on the parasol in the markings on this blade resembles Mughal/Ottoman form, the image may be mindful of the ancient connection. It was a fashion element signifying status and often regal association and had become a gentry device in Italy and probably these cosmopolitan centers of Europe by the late 17th century. Its placement over the crown suggests such status it would seem, much as noble ligatures over crowns in cyphers. Several of the characters of Angelic script (created by Agrippa in the 16th c. from Greek and Hebrew letters) do correspond to some of those in the inscription here in some degree as far as I can see while some are Kabbalistic and magical sigils in style. While at this point it is not possible to say with any certainty what this fascinating sword is from, perhaps a fraternal or secret group or society in regions of East Europe from the latter 18th century and by the hilt elements, likely military oriented. There may be allegorical elements to the sword overall, to which more explanation may be held in the inscriptions and devices in the markings and decoration but of course, more research required!! All the best, Jim

25th June 2011, 02:26 AM	#34
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	In Europe there are a great many festivals where people, mostly as members of various committees or "societies" dress up in often rather traditional, often rather ancient and paganistic, roles. Think "mummer"s