The half moon symbol in early Spanish swords

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...calligraphically embellished 'Z' ( as Sir James Mann had specified, 1962)...

Is that so, Jim ... in what page ?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

.. it seems that there has been a previous blacksmith register before palomares made by Rodriquez del Canto, el discipulo instruido.
have you maybe heard of that document....

Yes i have Jasper ... and that has been already mentioned somewhere around here. Actually i thought i spotted his whole work in the Web but i now realize i was wrong. The thing is, del Canto manuscript, which apparently was never printed and edited, belonged to Count Valencia de Don Juan, by the time this noble published his work Catalogo Historico-Descritivo de la Real Armeria, in 1898. Apparently del Canto manuscript is a very exhaustive work, with numerous illustrations, mainly foccusing in the art of sword fencing and, for what matters, is 'only' 40 years earlier than that of Palomares. From the quotatins i have read so far, nothing indicates that his (possible) description of smiths marks tells us something new. I will keep digging into this. So far i enjoyed learning about Lhermite, who lived in the exact period and has resourced important material on more than 20 smiths, their marks and the type of blades they used to forge. This yes, must have a been a genuine work as, according to experts, the terminology he uses to describe their respective products should only be learnt through personal contact.
Attached a page of del Canto manuscript, where e compares the sizes of the different "instruments".


.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Is that so, Jim ... in what page ?

Well Fernando, I guess that comment was not entirely correct, as I was so preoccupied with congratulating your well placed and reasonably deduced 'approach' on the embellished 'Z' that I inadvertently linked Sir James Mann's mention of the 'figure' (not 'number') 3 and the letter 'Z'.
As always, I am so grateful for your gentle and courteous edification and catching my misteakes and reinforcing the integrity of the entries by doing so.

Actually, I had not added the page number as I was not quoting and thought I had added that page in earlier comments. In reviewing the pages from Sir James Mann ("Wallace Collection: European Arms & Armour" Vol. II, pp.281, referring to a rapier (A549) and the mark in discussion , "....the mark bears no resemblance to that ( the LETTER Z CROWNED of that of A611) generally attributed to Sebastian Hernandez the elder, who was still living in 1637".

Moving to A611 (Mann, op cit. p.309), Mann describes a rapier of c. 1580-1600, he notes, "....the ricasso stamped on one side with the FIGURE THREE crowned and surmounted by a cross".

Clearly even Sir James Mann, an arms researcher of most distinguished repute, had made misteakes.

Thank you for pointing out my error, and the opportunity to look further into the references from Sir James Mann which were importantly contradictory.

[fernando]

Jim, the only misteake you may have made was that of not passing me the:


.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, the only misteake you may have made was that of not passing me the:


.

LOL!!! Indeed, and you have undoubtedly not forgotten my unfortunate celebration with a little too much 'Metallica' and Drambuie, when a tulwar called to me for a little swing........ and I, forgetting the ceiling fan swirling above me....had a great surprise!

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by fernando

Yes i have Jasper ... and that has been already mentioned somewhere around here. Actually i thought i spotted his whole work in the Web but i now realize i was wrong. The thing is, del Canto manuscript, which apparently was never printed and edited, belonged to Count Valencia de Don Juan, by the time this noble published his work Catalogo Historico-Descritivo de la Real Armeria, in 1898. Apparently del Canto manuscript is a very exhaustive work, with numerous illustrations, mainly foccusing in the art of sword fencing and, for what matters, is 'only' 40 years earlier than that of Palomares. From the quotatins i have read so far, nothing indicates that his (possible) description of smiths marks tells us something new. I will keep digging into this. So far i enjoyed learning about Lhermite, who lived in the exact period and has resourced important material on more than 20 smiths, their marks and the type of blades they used to forge. This yes, must have a been a genuine work as, according to experts, the terminology he uses to describe their respective products should only be learnt through personal contact.
Attached a page of del Canto manuscript, where e compares the sizes of the different "instruments".


.

Hi Fernando,

very interesting! do you know where can I find the literature of Lhermite?

thanks+regards,

[fernando]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Hi Fernando,

very interesting! do you know where can I find the literature of Lhermite?

thanks+regards,

The whole of his (french written) work was published in two volumes and both (PDF) are too heavy to upload here.
However the part related with the Toledo sword smiths is written in spanish, in volume 2, pages 293-298, which i have extracted and posted in the other thread ... and upload here again.

MVG


.

[fernando]

Looking back to this topic issue, one may still find further material on the half moon mark; something only possible by trying all wording and phrase combinations that come to mind.
All three quotations found are linked to master Julian del Rey, one we knew from a good couple sources to have used ‘various’ marks in his blades. It is highly possible (probable) that all three sources derive from one only origin, but it is interesting to mention them all, as each one quotes particular details.
From MEMORIAL LITERARIO de la corte de MADRID (1793) we have that:
Commenting on the Palomares nomina, the text reminds that, some of the masters moved to towns other than Toledo to either teach their skills or look for better trade chances, whom among others, in Zaragoza Julian del Rey, who used other marks of half moon and a “mundo con grillos”.
From DICCIONARIO MILITAR by D. José Almirante (1869) we have that:
(Under the term ESPADERO):
Still today the famous “ la del perrillo” is researched, one that was adopted by the famous Toledan Smith, Julian del Rey, converted moor. Apparently he also worked in Zaragoza; and besides the perrillo, he used as mark a half moon and a “mundo com grillos”.
Finally from DON QUIJOTE DE LA MANCHA comented by Don Diego Clemencin (1835) we have that:
Explaining why Julian’s swords were called those of the perrillo, adding that Don Pedro Jimenes de Haro owned two of those, which were wide and short, the same sword shape cited in Cervantes novel Rinconete y Cortadillo, as used by the gang leader Monipódio, describing it as in the style of “las del perrillo”, which were fabricated by Julian del Rey, a Moorish 'so they say', who also worked in Zaragoza whom, besides the perrillo, also used as mark a half moon and a “mundo com grillos”.
This mark “mundo com grillos” all times quoted together with the half moon, is rather peculiar and new (to me), as also containing a language dilema; besides not being a Spaniard, i find it possible to translate these two words in more than one mode. 'Mundo' means 'world', but may also be read as 'globe'; 'grillo' means 'cricket', but also means 'shackles'. So, could the right interpretation mean a 'globe with shackles' … or could it not be actual shackles and just an allegory ? Here is something that might take little or long time to figure out. On the other hand we find that, the half moon mark (symbol) keeps popping up here and there … even in the universe of the “Moor”.


.

[fernando]

So far i have learnt that, the attributing to shackles the name of grillos (crickets), would refer to the noise made by prisioners walking and dragging their shackles.

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando, thank you so much for staying with this intriguing topic, and especially for all the work you have done in translating, searching resources and compiling all of this valuable data. I admire your tenacity as well in the deductive reasoning in observations on the material.

This especially with the well supported new information on the markings of Julian del Rey, which in addition to the half moon, adds the curiously described 'MUNDO CON GRILLOS'. It is fascinating to see this come out to mean 'mundo' (= world or globe) and the 'grillos' perhaps tenuously also meaning 'shackles'.

While I am trying to imagine what these markings look like, I can add some interesting and potentially associated notes pending more on translation.
It is always curious where makers or tradesmen got ideas for their chosen guild or trademarks.
In the 18th century, the Spanish military arming rapiers were somehow termed 'bilbos'. I recall researching this curious term, and finding the detail on the Basque port of Bilbao in Northern Spain. Apparently the term had earlier use by Shakespeare in his "Merry Wives of Windsor" , where it is noted that swords of Biscayan (Bay of Biscay there) iron were called 'bilbos' (for the port of Bilbao).
I found also that the Toledan masters used iron from the Mondragon mines in Basque provinces, perhaps lending further to the Bilbo term.

Now here's the pitch, the word 'bilbo' also refers to a long iron bar with sliding shackles and lock worn on ankles of prisoners.

Not sure if this is 'cricket', but here is a word for sword and famed iron (termed alma de hierro, =soul of iron) linked to 'shackles'.

Tenuous yes, but intriguing just the same. Now if we could just find what this mark looked like!

[fernando]

Thank you Jim; tenacity is not yet my middle name ... but i am working on it .
Yes, Beraiz is very determinate in that the term Bilbo originates in the city of Bilbao; actually the city name is spelt Bilbo in the local Basque (Euskera) language.
He is also consistent with other sources in that such naming of the sword is of British attribution, since there was intense trade between the Basques and the British Islands, being a fact that such sword hilt in local terminology was more connected to its shape, namely Bivalve, Conchas (shells), Venera (scallop) and even Medio caracolillo (half snail). Eventually this type of guard was also produced by Portuguese smiths, but note, there was a significant number of 'Biscainho' ( from Biscaia province, capital Bilbao) armourers labouring in Portugal by that time, as recorded.
But while this local terminology came with the later appearing of the typical guard/hilt, the Bilbo term was already in use with the British for the whole sword, such as mentioned by Shkespeare in his work.
Still the Bilbo sword/hilt should not be connected with the Bilbo shackle; besides Beraiz, we must also consider Oxford dictionaries in that such idea is a mith as, for one, such shackle alias was already in use before Shakespeare. Actually some make a point to use the plural form for the shackle version, that is Bilboes.
Concerning the steel used by Toledan masters for their blades, it is of course beyond any doubt that they favoured that from Mondragon but, it is my impression that, the Bilbo term if ever used in such context would be that of relating the steel provenance, that not calling it as such.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you Jim; tenacity is not yet my middle name ... but i am working on it .
Yes, Beraiz is very determinate in that the term Bilbo originates in the city of Bilbao; actually the city name is spelt Bilbo in the local Basque (Euskera) language.
He is also consistent with other sources in that such naming of the sword is of British attribution, since there was intense trade between the Basques and the British Islands, being a fact that such sword hilt in local terminology was more connected to its shape, namely Bivalve, Conchas (shells), Venera (scallop) and even Medio caracolillo (half snail). Eventually this type of guard was also produced by Portuguese smiths, but note, there was a significant number of 'Biscainho' ( from Biscaia province, capital Bilbao) armourers labouring in Portugal by that time, as recorded.
But while this local terminology came with the later appearing of the typical guard/hilt, the Bilbo term was already in use with the British for the whole sword, such as mentioned by Shkespeare in his work.
Still the Bilbo sword/hilt should not be connected with the Bilbo shackle; besides Beraiz, we must also consider Oxford dictionaries in that such idea is a mith as, for one, such shackle alias was already in use before Shakespeare. Actually some make a point to use the plural form for the shackle version, that is Bilboes.
Concerning the steel used by Toledan masters for their blades, it is of course beyond any doubt that they favoured that from Mondragon but, it is my impression that, the Bilbo term if ever used in such context would be that of relating the steel provenance, that not calling it as such.

Interesting reference about Shakespeare who does in fact mention the shakles, however, that can be viewed at

https://openliterature.net/2010/04/0...the-day-bilbo/ which focusses on two derivitives of the word in two different settings. One is a sword the other shackles;

Quote" “The mutinies in the bilboes” are sailors or soldiers convicted of mutiny and punished by being attached to “A long iron bar, furnished with sliding shackles to confine the ankles of prisoners, and a lock by which to fix one end of the bar to the floor or ground”. Good quality spanish iron prevented any thoughts of escape, but was pliable enough to be shaped into shackles. Hamlet mentioning the word may also suggest that his thoughts are already turning towards his duel with Laertes, which may well have been conducted with bilbo-swords."Unquote.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Fernando for the additional views into some this Spanish terminology , particularly the fondness of using metaphoric terms describing sword hilts.
Ibrahiim, thank you for that great link, which well describes the term Bilbo/bilboes and the uses of the term.

It does seem the term Bilbo for swords was in use for some time before Shakespeare's writing of course, but how widespread the use was is hard to say. We know the Toledo smiths were most enamored of the Basque iron, just as well aware of the Toledo blades, so these kinds of colloquial terms were well used in Shakespeare's work.
It is the same with Shakespeares reference to the 'fox', which of course denotes the 'wolf of Passau' then used in Solingen, so a colloquial for fine bladed sword.

It is interesting to see these terms in context of period literature and how they were used in real time conversational situations.

Regarding the connection between 'shackles' and the 'bilbo' swords, obviously it is a strained connection, but it must be remembered that blade makers and blacksmiths were not all that far apart. Often blade smiths doubled in producing other metalwork of far more domestic nature with knives of course, or farm implements in these earlier times. I have often thought that there must have been occasions when these workers might have used images of such items as their trademark.

[Gonzalo G]

I have not read this thread when I posted a reply in the thread about the rapier of the 17th Century. In general I concurr with Fernando about the supposed stamps of the Maestro Espadero del Rey. I don´t believe that some symbols have deep esoteric meaning, nor I believe the Spaniards or Portuguese, very practical people, have special inclination in this sense, different from the deep religiosity of protestant Europe. I think it is only one of the many stereotypes made about the different nations in the world.

Putting non-catholic esoteric stamps on the Spanish blades, on the other side, was dangerous and too public. Don´t forget the Inquisition, which was burning prople by hundreds. Maybe the moor and jew converts dared, but not the Spaniards or Portuguese, though some Spaniards accused the Portuguese of beign jews most of them!! The jewish followers of the Cábala were few and all of them emigrated or were expelled from Spain. A kind of esoterism was common in the whole medieval occidental Europe, as you can see in the symbols from cathedrals, churches and chapels from Germany to England, asociated with the guilds of craftsmen. Maybe it can be reflected in the choosing of certain stamps on the sword blades, but not signaling a real involment in those beliefs. Maybe reminiscences from the old religions and the cultural influence of judaism and islam, which is greater than the European historians recognize, but not real involvement in deep beliefs.

Don´t forget that not only in Toledo were great swordsmiths. In Valencia, some towns in Viscaya and even in Madrid, Granada and Sevilla, the two last beign the inheritors of the moor craftsmanship, produced great swords. In fact, the core of the initial Fábrica de Armas Blancas de Toledo was made with swordsmiths from Valencia, since in Toledo, as Fernando said, the craftmanship was dying, and few toledan espaderos remained and were incorporated. Unfortunately, the history of those non-toledan swordsmiths is less known.

Regards

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

I have not read this thread when I posted a reply in the thread about the rapier of the 17th Century. In general I concurr with Fernando about the supposed stamps of the Maestro Espadero del Rey. I don´t believe that some symbols have deep esoteric meaning, nor I believe the Spaniards or Portuguese, very practical people, have special inclination in this sense, different from the deep religiosity of protestant Europe. I think it is only one of the many stereotypes made about the different nations in the world.

Putting non-catholic esoteric stamps on the Spanish blades, on the other side, was dangerous and too public. Don´t forget the Inquisition, which was burning prople by hundreds. Maybe the moor and jew converts dared, but not the Spaniards or Portuguese, though some Spaniards accused the Portuguese of beign jews most of them!! The jewish followers of the Cábala were few and all of them emigrated or were expelled from Spain. A kind of esoterism was common in the whole medieval occidental Europe, as you can see in the symbols from cathedrals, churches and chapels from Germany to England, asociated with the guilds of craftsmen. Maybe it can be reflected in the choosing of certain stamps on the sword blades, but not signaling a real involment in those beliefs. Maybe reminiscences from the old religions and the cultural influence of judaism and islam, which is greater than the European historians recognize, but not real involvement in deep beliefs.

Don´t forget that not only in Toledo were great swordsmiths. In Valencia, some towns in Viscaya and even in Madrid, Granada and Sevilla, the two last beign the inheritors of the moor craftsmanship, produced great swords. In fact, the core of the initial Fábrica de Armas Blancas de Toledo was made with swordsmiths from Valencia, since in Toledo, as Fernando said, the craftmanship was dying, and few toledan espaderos remained and were incorporated. Unfortunately, the history of those non-toledan swordsmiths is less known.

Regards

Salaams Gonzalo G, Please see the interesting detail of Toledo sword demise at https://books.google.com.om/books?id...smiths&f=false

[Gonzalo G]

Salaam aleikum, peace be upon you, Ibrahim. Yes, it is interesting, and I think it is true. Valencia also suffered even more by the increasing prosecution of the muslim population, which became in a rebellion and in a little war whose result was the killing or forced emigration of many craftsmen. Or, the forced conversion. Curiosly, some of the new converts to christianity, moors and jews, still discriminated, seek refuge in the Spanish American colonies, where they were integrated in the actual population.

But I don´t think the change of residence of the court was so important over the fall of the Toledo craftsmanship, since if the demand of swords have been continued, other centers of production would have risen. I think the growing impoverishment of the Spanish population, including substantial sectors of the low nobility, fueled by the hyperinflation caused by the gold and silver exacted from Mexico and Peru and the lack of development of the Spanish industrial and agricultural productivity, and also the costly and growingly ruinous wars of Spain, trying to maintain their hegemony in Europe, were the main reasons. Spain overeached its capacity instead of consolidated it.

Regards