Tatar saber for discussion

[Battara]

Ok...now I'm getting interested in Tatar swords (not just the sauce ). One more area to collect....*sigh*

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

While we are on this topic, are there any good publications on the history of the Tatars post Jochi? or for that matter the Lithuanian Tatars?

Jeff

"Bron i uzbrojenie Tatarow"
Jacek Gutowski, Warszawa 1997
("Arms and armor of Tatars")
In Polish and English : even/odd pages.
Wonderful book, full of history and color pics.

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by ariel

"Bron i uzbrojenie Tatarow"
Jacek Gutowski, Warszawa 1997
("Arms and armor of Tatars")
In Polish and English : even/odd pages.
Wonderful book, full of history and color pics.

Thank you Ariel,

Gutowski's book is indeed excellent. It does give a nice outline on the Tatar history, however I wonder if there is any publications with a little more detail.

Thanks again
Jeff

[Rivkin]

1. Thank you Jim for your kind words, but my contribution was rather insignificant.

2. When it comes to tatar history, while I'm pretty sure there should be some (probably polish ?) books on lithuanian and polish tatars, the whole topic is very poorly researched. The reasons in my opinion being current poverty of tatars, endless inter-tribal warfare that in the past have led to the destruction of major centers of tatar civilization, preserverance of nomadic lifestyle (extremely complicating the efforts of archeology), relative isolation from other centers of civilization, replacement of yasa by islam (in my opinion have lead to acceptance of arab/mamluk point of view on mongol/tatar history).

A good example - why there are so many hexagrams on tatar coats of arms ? The obvious answer is an islamic one - it's a seal of Solomon. Unfortunately it creates more questions than answers:

While another extremely popular symbol is an eight point star (octagramm) ? It has no specific symbolism in Islam. Why hexagrams very often appear multiple times - 3 hexgrams in Bucharin's symbolics, 4+1 in Usupov's ? Why this symbol sometimes predates what we consider an islamic period in turkish history, if not islam itself ? Sometimes it's been explained as a jewish symbol, but it does not remove the main problem, which is that besides speculations we know very little.

[erlikhan]

Rivkin, as far as i know,tamgas are primarily to show ownership of a land, building, cattles,sheep, horses anything. was used to understand to whom or which tribe anything belonged in nomadic life's enormous distances and continuously changing settlement locations . tamga - damga means "stamp" in Turkish and first purpose was to sign animals with hot iron i am sure. tamgas should be extremely important to prevent any mistakes, even potential wars. started in middle Ajian steppes and carried to everywhere Turks settled. became an identity symbol for people as well in time, and every tribe, every band, any people had own tamgas. (especially among Tatars, who continued nomadic and semi nomadic life longer than Turkey). Below is the flag of Crimean Tatars with their tamga, used when they were independent, and later autonomyous under Russian rule till 1944,the date they were expelled to other regions). Ottomans were from "Kayi" band of "Oguz" tribe, and they used the Kayi tamga as a military sign widely struck on most arms and armors officialy ordered and manufactured for the state arsenal in Istanbul. I cant find a picture of it at the moment but i think is already well known among Ottoman arms collectioners.
I know northern coasts of Black Sea down to somewhere like south Romania was Tatar land, and in 18-19th centuries conquered by Russians, and just to northwest of Tatars,today's Ukraine and Belarus was Poland at that time. Lvov is in that region,ok. But I didnt know about a large Tatar population in Poland. Were they same with Crimean ones? Or were they to north, and Christians like Lithuanian Tatars? Were they loyal to Poland or what? In fact I am not even sure about Lithuania Tatars too, if they were Moslem or Christian. If Poland had some Tatar population and there are still samples of their sabers, today's south Ukraine, Moldova and Russia ,once densely crowdedly Tatar established regions with strong Tatar armies, should not have much more samples? Why doesnt any come from there, unlike raining Kindjals,shashkas etc.? Any ideas? Would one be able to find any if travels to Crimea and Ukraine?I would desire to have one or more from those
regards

[wolviex]

Originally Posted by erlikhan

I know northern coasts of Black Sea down to somewhere like south Romania was Tatar land, and in 18-19th centuries conquered by Russians, and just to northwest of Tatars,today's Ukraine and Belarus was Poland at that time. Lvov is in that region,ok. But I didnt know about a large Tatar population in Poland. Were they same with Crimean ones? Or were they to north, and Christians like Lithuanian Tatars? Were they loyal to Poland or what? In fact I am not even sure about Lithuania Tatars too, if they were Moslem or Christian. If Poland had some Tatar population and there are still samples of their sabers, today's south Ukraine, Moldova and Russia ,once densely crowdedly Tatar established regions with strong Tatar armies, should not have much more samples? Why doesnt any come from there, unlike raining Kindjals,shashkas etc.? Any ideas? Would one be able to find any if travels to Crimea and Ukraine?I would desire to have one or more from those
regards

To be short, I checked out Wikipedia for you, and I'll bring you some basic informations:

Lithuanian and Polish Tatars are generally the same. The latter name was spread after the 1st WW, when Lithuania and Poland became independent, separately countries. Polish Tatars (I will use nowaday term) originate from the Golden Horde and from Crimea. These were political refugees from out there, which settled in Grand Duchy of Lithuania in 14th century. They were accepted by the state and become obliged for military service. Soon they were ennobled, but they have stayed with their religion (Islam), culture and traditions. In 16th and 17th centuries Tatars were mostly polonized (you must remember that Lithuania and Poland were, in general, the one country, connected with Union). Today, after the II WW there are only two Tatar's villages in Poland (they're still have Islam as main religion, as well the traditions) and they're mostly dispersed.
Some of the Tatars were lived also in Volhynia and Podolia (today Ukraine) in 17th-18th centuries.

As I said, only brief history
Regards

[erlikhan]

thanks. short but quite informing. but not enough especially to solve the mystery for me, why Tatar sabers are rare? Odd, when their militaristic state and community considered. They stood independent till 1783. i think it is a date, which should be close enough to let more samples still exist .

[ham]

Gentlemen,

The swords we refer to as Tatar, Tatarska, Ordynka, etc. are rare because they were superseded by commoner forms within a relatively short period. Polish museums hold the most Tartar items, though Russian and Swedish ones have some interesting examples. Stalin saw to it the Tartars themselves were removed in toto over 50 years ago, you'll only hear Ukranian at Bahcesarayi anymore.
Unfortunately the old Orientalist fantasy of shadowy eastern bazaars bulging with the finest antique arms available to adventurous fellows for a pittance is precisely that-- a dream. Having spent many a year researching in Eastern Europe, Egypt and Turkey, I have seen what was once available in good antique weapons dwindle over time. What remains is often poorly restored or composed of associated parts. Same scenario even up in the Caucasus mountains, though lately Georgia abounds in charming (and not such charming) copies, particularly of Khevsur weapons. Bulgaria and Romania are devoid of anything save yatagans worn down to table knives, I'm afraid. Western Europe, particularly England and Germany, seems to have the best Eastern arms on the market.

Sincerely,

Ham

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by ham

though lately Georgia abounds in charming (and not such charming) copies, particularly of Khevsur weapons.

O-O-Ogh, can you please elaborate on this one ? I've seen quite a lot of khevsur palashes recently, quite similar to each other too...

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

O-O-Ogh, can you please elaborate on this one ? I've seen quite a lot of khevsur palashes recently, quite similar to each other too...

Yes, I would like to see what Ham sees like copies.

I have been in Georgia recently and the only place I saw Khevsur swords was the museum. I posted pictures in other topic. No in antique shops not in bazars.

In the other hand I have seen 8 Khevsur swords in greek collections (1 is mine), 5-6 more in Ebay and in dealers hands . If any of these is a copy I am blind

Where are the copies????

The khevsur swords were uknown few years ago. This is normal because the origin area is remote and it was close to western people for almost 70 years. Since 1991 poverty, wars etc. Just recently Georgian dealers found that these swords have value in Western market. So they sell what they find. Most of them are in good contition just because there is a vivid tradition in Khevsur people.

[erlikhan]

I must ask the same question for kindjals. Do they produce good copies with hand forged blades? I have seen some with real silver scabbards and forged blades , made in 80-90s in Caucassia, but dont know if they still do it. How are the average antique kindjal prices in Georgia today? Cheaper or close to anywhere else?
regards

[ham]

"The khevsur swords were uknown few years ago.... Since 1991 poverty, wars etc. Just recently Georgian dealers found that these swords have value in Western market."

Gentlemen,

Yannis' observations are entirely accurate, and explain perfectly why numerous copies of Khevsur weapons are appearing on the market in Tbilisi. The examples I saw there had old blades, some straight, some curved-- no scarcity of them, apparently. When asked, the local collectors I met generally reponded that they were made in the 1950s during the Stalin era for dance troupes and other ceremonies intended to promote Georgian culture. Dealers, on the other hand, said there were a few characters in town who build hilts and scabbards around old blades and sell them along a particular prospect near the river and at the flea market-- I visited both these spots and did see several in addition to some old but extremely worn kindjals and a few Soviet bayonets. On the other hand, I saw no Khevsur weapons in private collections there, which in itself is telling. Incidentally bravo Yannis for the images of the arms displays at the History Museum. I didn't dare bring a camera in there for fear of having it confiscated.

Sincerely,

Ham

[Yannis]

I had a quite different experience in Tbilisi. I looked everywere I could and went to bazar near the river at least 3 times. No khevsur swords! Only bad kindjals and russian army stuff.

I went to more Georgian cities and villages. I talked with a lot of people. No khevsur swords!

I also saw the weapons that dancing groups use. I hadled some of them. They look like khevsur but they are not! They are simpler in construncion, different materials. Look photos. Sorry for the quality. It was difficult and I am not used of theater photos.

If you can find (live or video) Georgian dance with swords, see it. It is amazing. These guys really fight with fierce as they dance. As the blades strike there is light like fireworks!

The blades that are used in this dance are real steel but they are full of nicks.

[ariel]

During the Soviet regime, ownership of weapons was so strongly regulated that it was for all intents and purposes forbidden. Even buying a hunting knife in a specialized store required police check and permission (presumably, one could not slit somebody else's throat with a kitchen knife bought freely). Being caught by the police with a "finka" (a small knife in a style of Finnish puukko) landed one in jail for a couple of years.
Thus, the Caucasians were understandably very leery of preserving their weapons at home and many were destroyed.Anything of artistic and historian value was confiscated to the museums and likely ended up hanging on the walls of local Party poo-bahs.
As to Tatar history, one shoul go to Lithuania, to the Trakai castle: only 20 mi from Vilnius, and an astonishing place of Lithuanian, Tatar and Caraite culture and, yes, weapons. I still remember dozens of old curved swords.....

[tom hyle]

Interesting mode of wear for that kinzhal.

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by erlikhan

I must ask the same question for kindjals. Do they produce good copies with hand forged blades? I have seen some with real silver scabbards and forged blades , made in 80-90s in Caucassia, but dont know if they still do it. How are the average antique kindjal prices in Georgia today? Cheaper or close to anywhere else?
regards

There are some quality kindjals being made in Dagestan today, but the price is about 100$-200$ for the blade alone, so it makes no sence for them to sell it as fakes.

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by ariel

During the Soviet regime, ownership of weapons was so strongly regulated that it was for all iyents and purposes forbidden. Even buying a hunting knife in a specialized store required police check and permission (presumably, one could not slit sobebody else's throat with a kitchen knife bought freely). being cought by the police with a "finka" (a small knife in a style of Finnish puukko) landed one in jail for a couple of years.
Thus, the Caucasians were understandably very leery of preserving their weapons at home and many were destroyed.Anything of artistic and historian value was confiscated to the museums and likely ended up hanging on the walls of local Party poo-bahs.

I have to attest to this. My grandfather killed a lot of people, but he had to damp all his weapons (including some completely unique ones) into the river .

Additionally many sword types (court swords, anything with coat of arms etc.) were considered to be signs of nobility and the last thing anyone needed is to be a known nobleman .

[erlikhan]

But when Soviet regime collapsed, kindjals and shashkas came to Turkish market like rain. Full silver scabbarded ones were sold for 250-300 dollars. And among them, there were plenty of top quality ones for a bit higher prices,which are nowadays extremely rare , like gold worked ivory scabbards with blades full of gold koftgari. I even saw Sheikh Shamil's own kindjal( not in hand. just picture long after it was sold).Then the prices increased dramatically, but in time. So, when I combine this fact with what you tell, perhaps, most of the weapons were not destroyed or left to rust, but simply were taken and "secured" by local party authorities which were a significant percentage in population, or army officers, police etc. , and when borders opened, they turned these stocks into cash.I am afraid we can count even museums among the market suppliers.
regards

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Interesting mode of wear for that kinzhal.

It is fasten with the belt just for the dance. BTW this kindjal is rather new, but some of the dancers I have seen they had old good ones.

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by erlikhan

But when Soviet regime collapsed, kindjals and shashkas came to Turkish market like rain. Full silver scabbarded ones were sold for 250-300 dollars. And among them, there were plenty of top quality ones for a bit higher prices,which are nowadays extremely rare , like gold worked ivory scabbards with blades full of gold koftgari. I even saw Sheikh Shamil's own kindjal( not in hand. just picture long after it was sold).Then the prices increased dramatically, but in time. So, when I combine this fact with what you tell, perhaps, most of the weapons were not destroyed or left to rust, but simply were taken and "secured" by local party authorities which were a significant percentage in population, or army officers, police etc. , and when borders opened, they turned these stocks into cash.I am afraid we can count even museums among the market suppliers.
regards

Antiquities were extremely cheap in USSR. Gvarnerius' violin costed a few hundred dollars, with Shteiner and everyone else being even way cheaper. Firstprint of Napoleon's memoirs costed 10$ (5 rubles) using official exchange rate, and 1.80$ using the one of the black market.

I would say that nowadays in Russia the prices are probably way above ebay, when it comes to swords.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by ariel

During the Soviet regime, ownership of weapons was so strongly regulated that it was for all intents and purposes forbidden. Even buying a hunting knife in a specialized store required police check and permission (presumably, one could not slit somebody else's throat with a kitchen knife bought freely). Being caught by the police with a "finka" (a small knife in a style of Finnish puukko) landed one in jail for a couple of years. Thus, the Caucasians were understandably very leery of preserving their weapons at home and many were destroyed.Anything of artistic and historian value was confiscated to the museums and likely ended up hanging on the walls of local Party poo-bahs.
As to Tatar history, one shoul go to Lithuania, to the Trakai castle: only 20 mi from Vilnius, and an astonishing place of Lithuanian, Tatar and Caraite culture and, yes, weapons. I still remember dozens of old curved swords.....

If you think that Soviets were crazy, consider this: there is currently a movement in Great Britain (parliamentary discussions secondary to police requests) to ban the sale and the ownership of long and pointed kitchen knives. Apparently, too high percentage of crimes involved these implements (of course, since the gun ownership is banned, what else would criminals use!).
Thus, from now on, British chefs will have to use either short pointy knives or long and round-tip ones. The criminals, poor souls, will have either to slit their victim throats or, God forbid, break the law and resharpen their long knives.

[Rivkin]

Ha-ha-ha. Well, here are the statues of the city of Evanston, Illinois, USA:

"No person shall possess, in the City of Evanston, the following:
.....
(C) Any dangerous weapon as defined in Section 9-8-1(A).
....
DANGEROUS WEAPONS: (A) Bludgeon, blackjack, slingshot, sand club, sap, metal knuckles or any knife the blade of which may be opened by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife, incendiary devices or any other weapon or instrument of like character.

(B) Dagger, dirk, billy, dangerous knife, razor, stiletto, broken bottle or other piece of glass, stun gun, or taser, weighted gloves, bow, arrows or any other weapon or instrument of like character. "

As you can see posession of broken glass (!!!!) is a crime down here .

[Rick]

Not so funny what a broken beer bottle held by the neck can do .
In MA they're considered a deadly weapon under the law .
I have seen the results first hand .
But we digress ....

[Tim Simmons]

The peasants are revolting Garden tools have allways made good weapons. You could take somebodies head off with a good clean spade as quick as any sword. Seriously I would line up all sharp, pointed and nasty things, and tell them not to do it again

[Rivkin]

Since we are talking about dances with swords, here is the clip:
http://www.irakli.ru/music/legend.wmv

Just a small portion of it is a traditional fighting dance, and unfortunately we already see chinese influence (people flying on strings), but it's not bad.

[ariel]

Rivkin, you brightened my day!
Gorgeous country of beautiful people!
They fell on hard times recently, and there seems to be no way out: no hatural resources except for wine and mzvadi (what we, in our ignorance, call Shishlik).
May God help them to regain their joy of life, glory and happiness!

[ariel]

And here is another Tatar Ordynka:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

This one was on e-bay, but the auction is over and it is no longer active.
It has a Tamga, maybe Perkun can attribute it to a particular clan.

[Rivkin]

Tamga looks like that of Kanly tribe, but there are so many families in this tribe, or Zhapas clan of Bauly tribe (second picture). I think it is the second one, quite a distinctive tamga. Rotation of the symbol relative to the blade's surface is irrelevant.

On the other hand, Kanly is a much more prominent tribe when it comes to europeans tatars, Osman family belonged to kanly (?). On the other hand Bauly where related to parts of Nogai horde, so they were periodicly appearing around Balkans.

[ham]

Ariel,

The sword you mentioned on eBay is a pastiche. The hilt is modern, the blade old. The tamga shown on it was copied out of a book.
Hard enough to learn about these things from originals without being confounded by copies, I say. The seller offered it in all good faith, was emailed when it was recognized as a copy and to his credit has not offered it at auction again.

Ham

[Valjhun]

Originally Posted by ariel

If you think that Soviets were crazy, consider this: there is currently a movement in Great Britain (parliamentary discussions secondary to police requests) to ban the sale and the ownership of long and pointed kitchen knives. Apparently, too high percentage of crimes involved these implements (of course, since the gun ownership is banned, what else would criminals use!).
Thus, from now on, British chefs will have to use either short pointy knives or long and round-tip ones. The criminals, poor souls, will have either to slit their victim throats or, God forbid, break the law and resharpen their long knives.

You can always get a meter blade chainsaw to do some damage on the street muwahahahaa

Stupid laws by ignorant people

Rivkin, That's the nicest thing I saw in a while. I like that music very much! Where i can buy a CD?