French mameluke? first batch of images

[celtan]

Yep, it's the rifling that makes this an interesting beastie...

Remember in WWII, the allies found a few MP-40s and STMG-44s wit their barrels bent? They thought it was queer how the explosions that caused their barrels to be bent left them so precisely curved...

Then they discovered they were used to fire around corners.
Or the obsolete vacuum tubes on the computer boards of the russian Mig-23s, or the Horton flying wing. Or the baby Luger...

I don't know, but the fact is that we have an old hilt, coupled to a new bizarrely shaped blade. This happens in 1845. Seems there was a hurry to supply someone with this type of blade, thus the old hilt. The blade seems either turkish or russian, and no one has seen similar in Europe. Could this be a limited order to supply in a hurry some Force outside the bounds of traditional Europe? Perhaps South-America, or the mis-Orient?

Jean, you're the expert on both French blades and History. Who might France be willing to equip in a hurry, back in 1844-1845?

I know, I know, all conjectures. Per'aps we'll never know, me' mateys.

Best regards to y'all

: )

Manuel

Originally Posted by Jean B.

Yes, I agree it is amazing, but the marking and military inspector's mark give the assurance that the sword, once in its lifetime, matches the military standard and patterns of this government controlled factory and is the property of the government (the French ministry of war paid for it).

For me it is similar as if I find a military M16 rifle, with all the proof markings and a serial number corresponding to a batch sold to the US government years ago. And marking show also it was issue, and reissued, to the service. But...it has a knot made with the barrel.

Now, what hypothesis will I choose?
1) The US army ordered to the factory a batch of M16 with a knot in the barrel and issued it to troops. However there are no traces of such order or trials in archives and no other examples of a similar rifle in museums or military patterns room.

2) An armourer took a standard M16 rifle from military stock and managed to make a knot with the barrel.

I think I can only choose number 2 even if I 'll keep asking myself how this bloody armourer managed to make the knot in the barrel and...without altering the rifling!

I know the example is extravagant but it is only to show my reasoning process.

Cheers,
Jean

[Jean B.]

Note that in the examples you mentioned, several items were discovered and then documented.

Note also that if the blade is dated 1845 it doesn't mean that it happened (the curvature) in 1845.

Note also that the issue numbers on the hilt are French regimental rack numbers.

When the French helped foreign states (eg. Poland in the 1920) or supplied trial swords (eg. the USA in the 1830s) it was with regulation French weapons, no custom made swords. In all this cases it was fully documented in governments' archives.

Jean

[celtan]

Hi Jean,

In the US, often times military swords were rebladed. Hilts being reused for the sake of expediency and cost containment.

I know for a fact that Swedish Military swords were also routinely rebladed, like the M1685-1735 and the M1748-1853, their hilts reused. The danish did the same with their Hirschfanger M1777-1801.

I'm just considering the possibility of surplus M1822 hilts, rebladed in 1845 with this bizarre blade for use abroad, or perhaps even to equip some foreign force. Of course, not jus one sabre, but many. Perhaps others will eventually appear in Sebastopol, Istambul, etc...

If the blade was indeed curved after its manufacture, the more logical explanation is that it happened between 1845 and 1882, because after that the existing blades were shorter.

If I recall correctly, your country dealt with both turks and russians in the Crimean war, didn't you..?

Just chewing the fat, I guess. No harm done doing that!.

Best regards

Manuel

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

With all due respect, in my modest forging knowledge, curving in such way a blade already fullered, presents a great deal of difficulty. The problem is not no make the curve, but the metal in the outside of the curve strechtes and the inside make wrinkles, as the metal is shrinked, even in hot. So, the form of the edge, the fuller and the back must be reshapen, and the blade tempered again, grinded and polished. I wonder if this can be made on a blade already finished, and without extra material to work and expend. I would love to learn how can this be made, as my knowledge on this matter is not sufficient.
Regards

Gonzalo

Ho Gonzalo,

An astute and valid observation. Be interesting to have an answer. How were they forged?

Cheers
Chris

[celtan]

Found another, a Spanish blade made at the Cadiz Armoury in 1811...

M