Curious marriage: a Kard

[ariel]

I would like to stress again that Saracen, IMXO, hit the nail on the head: the tip of Gonzoadler’s scabbard is purely Turkish. The so-called “ Meskhetian Turks” call themselves simply Turks. They acquired an addition. ” Meskheonly after they were deported ( second time!) from Uzbekistan to asouthern Russia in 1989; they were never allowed to return to their homes in Samtskhe-Javakheti that was shared between Georgia ( in fact Russia) and Turkey. Let’s not forget that the area in question was a major center for cold weapon production and decoratinos: Akhaltsikhe and Akhalkalaki. BTW, legendary ( at least in Russia)mineral water Borjomi is from the same area, as was a creator of Georgian national epic poem “The knight in the tiger skin” Shota Rustaveli ( from Rustavi, ancient center of forging iron objects).
It would be difficult to imagine that there were no locals bladesmiths and jewelers among the 100,000+ Turks exiled to Central Asia in 944.Some sources mention that the greatest Georgian swordmaker Geurk Elizarov came to Tiflis from Akhatsikhe.
Nobody argues that there were Georgian itinerant masters in Central Asia at nthe end of 19th century, and had Mahratt been a bit more attentive to what was actually written by me, he would have understood that I was only raising a possibility of dating the scabbard in question to the second half of the 20th century, no more. The origin of the assertion that the Central Asian use of silver stopped in the 1920s is akin to the one that the use of brass was started by the Afghanis in 1900.Georgian masters were and still are using silver for their souvenir shashkas and kindjals non stop till now.
I was intrigued by the pics of Central Asian daggers on the wall carpet, especially by the rightmost one having the same throat. Any verifiable dating of them?

[mahratt]

There are a lot of letters and little meaning... Why invent mythical Meskhetian Turks who allegedly made a sheath of silver in the USSR in the second half of the 20th century? Probably Ariel left the USSR so long ago that he forgot about the strict regulations on working with precious metals in the USSR. Officially, only state organizations were allowed to work with silver and gold. At the same time, precious metals were necessarily marked with a state test. It is even more strange to imagine that in the second half of the 20th century in the USSR, even in Central Asia, someone will carry knives. This was prohibited. Undoubtedly, people continued to make national knives in Central Asia. But they were different from the old forms of knives and were certainly made without the use of silver.
The version about Meskhetian Turks, proposed by Mr. Ariel, reminded me of another equally fantastic version that he betrayed - about the Khyber knives, which were allegedly made in Russia and marked with Russian brands.

[Ren Ren]

Dear Colleagues! As far as English is not my native language, I would like to clarify in what cases the term "Throat" is used and in what cases is "Locket"?

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

Dear Colleagues! As far as English is not my native language, I would like to clarify in what cases the term "Throat" is used and in what cases is "Locket"?

Ren Ren, the terms are used sometimes interchangeably. However, I think of a "locket" as being a metal piece fitted around the "throat" of the scabbard.

[Ren Ren]

Thank you very much, Ian!

[Saracen]

Originally Posted by Kubur

I understand very well what Saracen has in mind.

Saracen, the throat is called the locket and it is common in most of scabbards in the world.

These two Indian karuds have the same system and a curved tip/chape.

Problem, they are not Ottoman daggers!

Thank you Kubur, correct English terminology is very important for me now.
But I'm talking specifically about the all-metal Ottoman scabbard and not about any others.
A removable locket in an all-metal Ottoman scabbard is needed in order to insert wooden inserts into them, which hold the blade inside.
On the discussed scabbard, the locket is made separately in the same Ottoman tradition, I think this also confirms their Ottoman origin.
Only here the Lak master had a problem: for the Lak style engraving , thick silver was needed and the locket had to be fastened butt-to-butt, not overlap.
I have not seen the removable locket on the all-metal scabbard of the Central Asian pchak. In addition, the scabbard of the Central Asian pchak is much wider and more massive.
The scabbard in question is narrow and elegant, in Ottoman style. Definitely this is an Ottoman scabbard.

[Saracen]

For comparison with the discussed scabbard: Ottoman kard

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Saracen

For comparison with the discussed scabbard: Ottoman kard

Thanks for the example.
It seems in childhood such a comparison was called "find 10 differences".
The only thing in common between these scabbards is that they are made of silver ...

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Saracen

I have not seen the removable locket on the all-metal scabbard of the Central Asian pchak. In addition, the scabbard of the Central Asian pchak is much wider and more massive.
The scabbard in question is narrow and elegant, in Ottoman style. Definitely this is an Ottoman scabbard.

The scabbard that you demonstrate in the topic belongs to the pchak knives that were made in the USSR. As I wrote above, they differed in shape from the old samples of this type of knives. Thank you for posting the Central Asian pchak from the Artzi website. Due to this, it can be seen that the proportions of the blades of the old Central Asian and Turkish pchak are practically the same. The scabbard that was sold as a set for this pchak is absolutely not traditional for the late 19th and early 20th centuries and was probably made at a later time.

For example, several old pchak knives from Central Asia with authentic scabbards. Surprisingly, they are not all broad.

[Saracen]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Thanks for the example.
It seems in childhood such a comparison was called "find 10 differences".
The only thing in common between these scabbards is that they are made of silver ...

mahratt, are you offended?
Why?
This is my opinion.
Do you not be offended if it does not correspond your opinion.
Nobody is obliged to agree with you.

[ariel]

Kubur,
You are absolutely correct: your example is Indian.
But both Saracen and I are talking about about 2 other things: the tip of the scabbard tilting up , reminescent of the Turkish yataghan “ dolphin” and the locket with asymmetric opening ( throat).
Meskhetian Turks self-identify as simply Turks: their language is Kars Turkish dialect, they follow Turkish customs etc. The word “ Meskhetian” was added only after 1989, after Soviet authorities exiled them from Uzbekistan to Southern Russia and Ukraine. Samtskhe -Javakheti was Ottoman most of the time, and was divided between Georgia ( Russia, in fact) and the Ottoman Empire only in the 19 century. This region was always a weapon -producing center: Akhaltsikhe and Akhalkalaki were the hubs ( see Astvatsaturyan).
Presence of itinerant Caucasian masters in Central Asia since at least late 1800s is well known.
But presence of at least few masters among more than 100,000 Georgian Turks exiled to Central Asia in 1944 is also likely. That was exactly my question about possible dating of Gonzoadler’s scabbard. Among the daggers shown earlier ( a group on the carpeted wall) the only one that interests me is the rightmost one: configuration of the throat ( opening of the scabbard) is identical to his one. Regretfully no proof of attribution or dating was provided.

The story of “Meskheti” Turks is tragic: their culture was utterly destroyed by the genocidal Soviet authorities and they are the only exiled ethnic group not allowed to return till today. See Ph.D dissertations of Hulya Dogan and Kathryn Tomlinson.
In modern Russia they are still hopelessly poor pariahs, not allowed to own property , vote or emigrate.Two consecutive exiles ( 1944 and 1989) robbed them of their belongings and history.
Studying their weapons is currently possible only in Turkey, where they enjoy full rights. That might be a priceless contribution by a professional weapon historian. One just needs to find such a person.

[Saracen]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Thank you for posting the Central Asian pchak from the Artzi website. Due to this, it can be seen that the proportions of the blades of the old Central Asian and Turkish pchak are practically the same. The scabbard that was sold as a set for this pchak is absolutely not traditional for the late 19th and early 20th centuries and was probably made at a later time.

"Due to this, it can be seen that the proportions of the blades of the old Central Asian and Turkish pchak are practically the same."
???!!!!! You should still look for 10 differences.

I'm glad you liked it. Here's three another.

PS: In my message, besides pictures, there were some letters.

[ariel]

Apologize for posting an almost identical message twice: my iPad kept my first one “unpublished” for a long time and I assumed it was lost. That was the reason for the second one. And suddenly.....:-)

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Saracen

mahratt, are you offended?
Why?
This is my opinion.
Do you not be offended if it does not correspond your opinion.
Nobody is obliged to agree with you.

I take no offence. Moreover, I am not offended by certain participants. It's just that if people write nonsense because of their lack of knowledge, I point it out)))

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

Kubur,
You are absolutely correct: your example is Indian.
But both Saracen and I are talking about about 2 other things: the tip of the scabbard tilting up , reminescent of the Turkish yataghan “ dolphin” and the locket with asymmetric opening ( throat).
Meskhetian Turks self-identify as simply Turks: their language is Kars Turkish dialect, they follow Turkish customs etc. The word “ Meskhetian” was added only after 1989, after Soviet authorities exiled them from Uzbekistan to Southern Russia and Ukraine. Samtskhe -Javakheti was Ottoman most of the time, and was divided between Georgia ( Russia, in fact) and the Ottoman Empire only in the 19 century. This region was always a weapon -producing center: Akhaltsikhe and Akhalkalaki were the hubs ( see Astvatsaturyan).
Presence of itinerant Caucasian masters in Central Asia since at least late 1800s is well known.
But presence of at least few masters among more than 100,000 Georgian Turks exiled to Central Asia in 1944 is also likely. That was exactly my question about possible dating of Gonzoadler’s scabbard. Among the daggers shown earlier ( a group on the carpeted wall) the only one that interests me is the rightmost one: configuration of the throat ( opening of the scabbard) is identical to his one. Regretfully no proof of attribution or dating was provided.

The story of “Meskheti” Turks is tragic: their culture was utterly destroyed by the genocidal Soviet authorities and they are the only exiled ethnic group not allowed to return till today. See Ph.D dissertations of Hulya Dogan and Kathryn Tomlinson.
In modern Russia they are still hopelessly poor pariahs, not allowed to own property , vote or emigrate.Two consecutive exiles ( 1944 and 1989) robbed them of their belongings and history.
Studying their weapons is currently possible only in Turkey, where they enjoy full rights. That might be a priceless contribution by a professional weapon historian. One just needs to find such a person.

Again, there are a lot of empty words that are not related to the topic of discussion. It is not clear why this political information about the "USSR - an empire of evil" is in the subject)))) I remind Ariel, who left the USSR so long ago that he forgot that carrying knives (like any other weapon) was prohibited in the USSR after the WW2 war. I wrote above about working with precious metals (silver) at the state level.
An exception was made only for the inhabitants of the Caucasus and only for national holidays.
And even more so in the post-war USSR, no one would have allowed representatives of the people resettled to other territories to engage in the manufacture of knives or some of their elements.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Saracen

"Due to this, it can be seen that the proportions of the blades of the old Central Asian and Turkish pchak are practically the same."
???!!!!! You should still look for 10 differences.

I'm glad you liked it. Here's three another.

PS: In my message, besides pictures, there were some letters.

The first knife from the topic is in Indian scabbard, not in Central Asian ones. In the other two examples, you can observe the scabbard from large Central Asian knives that were matched to small Central Asian knives that did not have a scabbard. Sometimes it is worth studying objects not only by those presented on the websites of antiques dealers, but also by museum collections. This will keep you from making stupid mistakes.

P.S. The differences between the scabbard of the Turkish knife that you showed and the scabbard of the author of the topic were seen by everyone except you and Ariel.

[Saracen]

Originally Posted by mahratt

I take no offence. Moreover, I am not offended by certain participants. It's just that if people write nonsense because of their lack of knowledge, I point it out)))

Little text, many pictures, among them not a single Central Asian knife in a Dagestan scabbart.
One half of the information you do not comprehend, from that the second seems like nonsense.
This is because you are more concerned with yourself than with the issues that are considered here.
But in pictures, you always become active ).
Yes, with you stupid, but always funny))

Originally Posted by mahratt

P.S. The differences between the scabbard of the Turkish knife that you showed and the scabbard of the author of the topic were seen by everyone except you and Ariel.

No matter how much you shout "sugar", your mouth will not become sweeter ))


PS: We are talking about the scabbard, not about the knives that are associated with them or not.
And this Central Asian scabbards have very little to do with the scabbard in question.
Just don't say that this simple thought has escaped you again.


I apologize to everyone for this development of the topic.

[Battara]

Folks I am going to make one warning that that's it.

We cannot get personal here on this thread of forum.

If I see this again, the offender(s) will be edited out and the punishment will be severe.

[Gonzoadler]

The meskethian daggers shown here have some similarities with mine. But here is an Indian dagger which has also a scabbard with a similar shape. There are differences but they are not really bigger.
One dagger mahratt has shown is not only similar in shape, it is also similar in style/decor. So I have to agree with him. It has a flower decor, a pearl-like decor at the mouth of the scabbard an these tetragonal fields (yes, in mahratts case with Lapis). Other examples are decorated with Niello, like mine.

What makes my Kard more meskhethian than uzbekh?

Regards

[Gonzoadler]

...

[Saracen]

Ottoman kard in a scabbard made by a Lak master.
Manufacturing technique and composition Dagestanian (Gonzoadler, pay attention to the traditional edging of these scabbard and the edging of the bottom of your four-petal flowers),
but in the center of the composition, instead of Lak motifs, there are elements of the traditional Ottoman ornament of Rumi (Anatolian).
This scabbard was made by a Dagestani master in the Ottoman Empire for a Turkish owner.

Compare the shape and proportions of your scabbard and all the Central Asian ones shown. They are different.

[ariel]

Gonzoadler,
Let me clarify what I said earlier: I am afraid I was not clear enough.

IMHO, the scabbard bears some marks of a Turkish style, and my main point is the upturned elongated ending of it. This is very similar to the stylized “dolphin” that we routinely see on yataghan scabbards. But the silverwork is “Caucasian”, Lak style of embossing. Starting late 19th century, ethnic borders of decoration in that area became blurred and largely uniform: silversmiths became itinerant and started working in almost industrial workshops. This, silverworks from large centers , - Tiflis, Akhaltsikhe, Vladikabkaz etc , became by and large virtually identical. Some went to Turkey and Persia, and some went to Central Asia.


My reference to Meskheti masters did not refer to the style of decorations,.
I was talking only about dating. At the end of 19-beginning of 20 century Caucasian style could have been introduced to Central Asia from any of the above areas. But in 1944 there was a sudden inflow of more than 100,000 Turks from the Samtskhe-Javakheti area who were evicted from their homes and forcibly resettled in Central Asia. Thus, there was a distinct possibility, - almost certainty,- that among them were at least several silversmiths who managed to find jobs there. It did not change the style of their work, but just added another potential time interval to the date of manufacture. No more. That was the reason I mentioned them. Hope I made myself clearer this time around.

Regretfully their material culture was extinguished and I have no idea whether there even are authentic examples of their old works in Georgian museums to find comparisons.

[Gonzoadler]

Ok ariel, sounds possible.
In my opinion it is less likely than central asia (because of some pieces like in this thread) but I wouldn't exclude it completely. The parts the dagger is made of looking old to me. However I have Kindjals which are from the second half of the 20th century and the silver work is of good quality.
So it is sometimes difficult to estimate the age of pieces in caucasian style.

Regards

[ariel]

You are 100% correct: contemporary Georgian masters have improved immensely over the past 10-20 years.
And I am not talking about real superstars: Zaqro Nonikashvili, who makes full-length wootz saber blades, and Gotcha Lagidze who not only restores old weapons but makes truly authentic replicas.

Not surprising: the same story happened in India, when local Rajahs were encouraged to establish workshops replicating truly old weapons. Within the same time interval, they were producing masterpieces that (apparently) take a substantial ( allegedly) parts of the Wallace collection in London and al-Sabah collection in Kuwait as dated to the 16-17th centuries. One thing remained largely unconquered: Persian-style wootz blades.

[fernando]

Ariel, your PM box is full.

[ariel]

Done.
Now it has only 3 messages left. I have space for the entire collection of Proust’s works:-)

[Saracen]

Originally Posted by Gonzoadler

...

This is the most obvious way to attach the removable locket to the scabbard.
On the Central Asian scabbard, the connection is masked by elements of the composition of the ornament and turquoise.
The Gonzoadler's scabbard doesn't even attempt to hide this connection.
This is in the Ottoman tradition. In the Ottoman tradition a removable locket always stands out stylistically on an all-metal scabbard, even when it is one-piece with a scabbard.
Аlso the Gonzoadler's scabbard has the absolutely Ottoman form of the end of the scabbard.
Central Asian scabbard kards like in post 10,
unites Central Asian and Dagestan elements in the decor.
Dagestani elements are only in the center.
The Gonzoadler's scabbard has no Central Asian elements at all. On what basis can they be attributed to Central Asia?

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Thanks for the example.
It seems in childhood such a comparison was called "find 10 differences".
The only thing in common between these scabbards is that they are made of silver ...

Yes, it's hopeless and after the agressive comments posted I agree with Battara about his warning

and it's better for you to not waste your precious time.

Take care my friend.

Kubur

[Saracen]

What's the matter, Kubur?
A simple question without emotion: what are the signs that allow the scabbard to be attributed to the Central Asian one? Besides to the Dagestan ornament.
It seems to me that you misunderstood something again. Also like in your post 30