Barong Classification - Page 2

tom hyle · 15th April 2005, 12:21 PM

Hi, how are you? There used to be writing here, and the computer won't believe me if I just TELL it there still is

Ian · 15th April 2005, 03:04 PM

Federico and Tom:

I hear what you are both saying. My point was not to ignore or dismiss any particular person's views, quite the opposite. I was trying to encourage a coming together and synthesis of ideas. Each one of us has but a small fragment of the truth, and one way this Forum helps me is by allowing us to bring those fragments together.

Sometimes our own strongly held beliefs get in the way of dialogue and objectivity -- I'm guilty of doing that too.

But I think this Forum offers a great opportunity to talk through differences of opinion in a civil manner, and in the process perhaps enlighten not just ourselves but everyone. I would again encourage all interested parties to take some of the ideas expressed here and work through differences of opinion and interpretation so that the rest of us can be better informed.

Ian.

tom hyle · 16th April 2005, 12:28 AM

That's absolutely true; this forum always strives toward fairness and peace, and that's why 'plaints for them can be heard and responded to here.

Federico · 17th April 2005, 05:09 AM

Ian

I would just like to clarify (seems like I need to do this alot), earlier post was not directed at you, I just know in the past in debates with others the sentiment has been voiced by some forum members(not just the deafening silence that occurs so often on the net). Anyways, I would love to see what evidence there is to draw this distinction between Samal and Tausug. The physical difference between the two styles is self-evident, and is noted in Bob Cato's book. However, why should we call one style Samal and the other Tausug, and not just a variation within a singular cultural theme. The only place I can think of, is one picture in Kriegers plates that says one barong is Samal, but then it doesnt say the other is Tausug (it actually says Mindanao) which then leads to the question how accurate is that distinction. Certainly, Bob's book does not make the distinction, so what are the merits of the argument? Zel never elaborated earlier, and hasnt commented in this thread either, and Spunjer said Zel's post and Bob's book are the only two references for this typology.

zamboanga · 17th April 2005, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

zamboanga,
glad you brought that up. could you be so kind enuff as to differentiate those? i have one and the fabric feels like felt, and it is solid red. any significance???

glad to do that spunjer. here is a picture of a tausug and a yakan fabric placed side by side.

the tausug (left) has smaller designs, the threads used are much thinner. The tausug fabric in the picture is a cotton/silk combination (the pink threads are silk, the rest cotton).

The yakan fabric (right) has brighter colors, uses a larger thread and have bigger designs. this one is made of cotton and is of recent make. older yakan fabrics also used silk.

tom hyle · 17th April 2005, 06:29 AM

Fair to say that in the old days the individual threads in the fabric were likely made/spun/etc. within the tribe, but are now often outsourced off the open planetary market?

zamboanga · 17th April 2005, 08:34 AM

in older times, silk was traded from the chinese. it was not and is still not made locally. other materials used like abaca were and still are locally produced. modern ethnic fabrics even those from non-moro tribes are still hand-woven. the only difference are the materials used (threads, dyes, etc.) which are often commercially sourced, and the intended purpose (i.e., wall decors, table runners, etc). but the designs are basically the same.

Ian · 17th April 2005, 05:17 PM

Just finished on eBay. Recently made but illustrative of some of the Palawano style.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7314461834
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7314462329

Ian.

Battara · 17th April 2005, 07:35 PM

I think that these are examples of the "sipit barong" to which I was refering. Narrower blades, hilts more angularly flat at the top. I'm not sure if this type is a more recent type or one that has not been recognized (the examples here are very new).

Ian · 17th April 2005, 11:19 PM

I was hoping you would make a linkage between the sipit barung and those recent Palawano examples. How about some of these new ones from Northern Borneo and another older example that I posted on the former Forum site and found here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001304.html

These have some superficial similarities to the Palawano barung, most notably the narrow blade profile, but they are clearly a different genre with respect to the narrow fullers and other blade decorations.

One more variety to add to our growing list of barung from various places.

Ian.

Spunjer · 17th April 2005, 11:31 PM

thanks for the link, ian... reading it right now

15th April 2005, 12:21 PM	#31
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Hi, how are you? There used to be writing here, and the computer won't believe me if I just TELL it there still is Last edited by tom hyle; 16th April 2005 at 12:37 AM. Reason: moderator complaint

17th April 2005, 05:17 PM	#38
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Two Palawano barung ... Just finished on eBay. Recently made but illustrative of some of the Palawano style. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7314461834 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7314462329 Ian. Last edited by Ian; 17th April 2005 at 05:29 PM.

17th April 2005, 11:19 PM	#40
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Thanks Battara ... I was hoping you would make a linkage between the sipit barung and those recent Palawano examples. How about some of these new ones from Northern Borneo and another older example that I posted on the former Forum site and found here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001304.html These have some superficial similarities to the Palawano barung, most notably the narrow blade profile, but they are clearly a different genre with respect to the narrow fullers and other blade decorations. One more variety to add to our growing list of barung from various places. Ian.

15th April 2005, 03:04 PM	#32
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Federico and Tom: I hear what you are both saying. My point was not to ignore or dismiss any particular person's views, quite the opposite. I was trying to encourage a coming together and synthesis of ideas. Each one of us has but a small fragment of the truth, and one way this Forum helps me is by allowing us to bring those fragments together. Sometimes our own strongly held beliefs get in the way of dialogue and objectivity -- I'm guilty of doing that too. But I think this Forum offers a great opportunity to talk through differences of opinion in a civil manner, and in the process perhaps enlighten not just ourselves but everyone. I would again encourage all interested parties to take some of the ideas expressed here and work through differences of opinion and interpretation so that the rest of us can be better informed. Ian.

16th April 2005, 12:28 AM	#33
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	That's absolutely true; this forum always strives toward fairness and peace, and that's why 'plaints for them can be heard and responded to here.

17th April 2005, 05:09 AM	#34
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Ian I would just like to clarify (seems like I need to do this alot), earlier post was not directed at you, I just know in the past in debates with others the sentiment has been voiced by some forum members(not just the deafening silence that occurs so often on the net). Anyways, I would love to see what evidence there is to draw this distinction between Samal and Tausug. The physical difference between the two styles is self-evident, and is noted in Bob Cato's book. However, why should we call one style Samal and the other Tausug, and not just a variation within a singular cultural theme. The only place I can think of, is one picture in Kriegers plates that says one barong is Samal, but then it doesnt say the other is Tausug (it actually says Mindanao) which then leads to the question how accurate is that distinction. Certainly, Bob's book does not make the distinction, so what are the merits of the argument? Zel never elaborated earlier, and hasnt commented in this thread either, and Spunjer said Zel's post and Bob's book are the only two references for this typology.

17th April 2005, 06:29 AM	#36
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Fair to say that in the old days the individual threads in the fabric were likely made/spun/etc. within the tribe, but are now often outsourced off the open planetary market?

17th April 2005, 08:34 AM	#37
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	in older times, silk was traded from the chinese. it was not and is still not made locally. other materials used like abaca were and still are locally produced. modern ethnic fabrics even those from non-moro tribes are still hand-woven. the only difference are the materials used (threads, dyes, etc.) which are often commercially sourced, and the intended purpose (i.e., wall decors, table runners, etc). but the designs are basically the same.

17th April 2005, 07:35 PM	#39
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I think that these are examples of the "sipit barong" to which I was refering. Narrower blades, hilts more angularly flat at the top. I'm not sure if this type is a more recent type or one that has not been recognized (the examples here are very new).

17th April 2005, 11:31 PM	#41
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thanks for the link, ian... reading it right now