When is a keris legitimate? - Page 2

erikscollectables · 28th February 2014, 09:35 AM

Very interesting question and answers!

To me there is no generic definition of what a keris is and therefore also no generic answer to what is legitimate.

The definition of what a keris is can be different to different people but also different in context, culture, location and time (and probably some more factors I did not think of) - to each combination there will be a specific defintion as outcome and compared to that definition you can decide if a keris fits - which would make it legitimate - or not.

My personal definition of what a keris is has evolved over the last years which does not make my earlier definitions incorrect nor does it make my current definition correct - just different.

Best regards, Erik

A. G. Maisey · 2nd March 2014, 11:48 AM

Thanks for joining our discussion Bob.

Actually, I have not given any definition of keris legitimacy, but rather, I have suggested that the idea of keris legitimacy varies widely.

I do not want to deliver any lectures on why one keris may be legitimate according to my own set of values, and why another is not. Rather, I would like to try to understand the many sets of values that people with a keris interest apply when they decide the question of legitimacy for themselves.

Yes, it is fair to say my ideas about the legitimacy of keris have been heavily influenced by my lengthy involvement with Javanese culture and society. However, as I have said in post #6 :-

"I personally do not see any answers to this question as either right or wrong."

My intention in beginning this thread was to try to gain some understanding of what people with a keris interest might consider to be a "legitimate keris" as determined by their own sets of values.

Since these people will be collecting for a number of reasons, and will have various levels of knowledge and experience, as well as variation in personal preference, it is to be expected that we will see a fairly wide range of criteria expressed.

I believe I've said most of what needs to be said about the idea of the "tourist keris", but one more short comment may be useful.

There is no doubt that keris have been manufactured purely for sale as souvenirs or decorator items, but changing tastes in the wider community, as well as the present day stringent regulations that many countries have in place on import of weapons, seem to have just about removed those "tourist keris" from the shelves of tourist centres in Bali and Jawa.

The ideas about older keris, which many collectors have regarded as "tourist keris", and I am thinking here of the well known "soldier keris", are possibly a creation of the collectors themselves, caused by the transference of their own values to an indigenous society.

Bob, you have raised the question of how to decide what to include in a beginning collection. I've been asked this question more times than I could count --- probably other long term collectors have also been asked.

In my opinion there is no definitive answer. You're the person who has to live with the keris, so you need to decide for yourself just what it is about the keris that appeals to you. When you have a firm idea in your mind of why you like keris, then you have a foundation stone to build on.

However, having said that, if you continue to collect for any length of time, I believe you will find that your tastes, and your criteria, will change.

You have raised another point I'd like to comment on, and that is in the content of the last paragraph of your post.

Within Javanese and other keris bearing societies there are undoubtedly many more collectors of keris than in all of the rest of the world.

At least in Javanese society, the reasons that these people collect, and thus their ideas on legitimacy in terms of their own collections, are as varied as are these reasons in the rest of the world.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd March 2014, 11:53 AM

Erik, perhaps you may care to share at least your current thoughts on keris legitimacy with us?

erikscollectables · 2nd March 2014, 04:41 PM

My personal definition is very simple - intent for use (ceremonial or otherwise) in a keris bearing society made by a person onderstanding that society and the intended purpose of the keris.

Otherwise, to me, it can be a piece of art or craftmanship but not a keris.

The problem with intent is that it is not "measurable" after the fact, although there may be clues to what the intent could have been.

In my earlier defintions traditions of making were of influence as well but such traditions are everchanging so it can not be a sustainable definition.

Regards, Erik

Bob A · 3rd March 2014, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

T
Within Javanese and other keris bearing societies there are undoubtedly many more collectors of keris than in all of the rest of the world.

At least in Javanese society, the reasons that these people collect, and thus their ideas on legitimacy in terms of their own collections, are as varied as are these reasons in the rest of the world.

I had hoped that there might be a touchstone of sorts in the way the Javanese themselves viewed the concept. Looks like we're all wandering about in the vastness of our separate sensibilities, then.

I rather like Erik's definition as a working thesis, but I suspect it's not really operable by someone outside the culture, more or less by definition.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd March 2014, 07:43 AM

I can understand how this subject of keris understanding might seem a little bit confusing, Bob, but its not nearly as bad as you may think. Yes, there are probably a few people wandering around in a fog wondering what the whole thing is all about, but any collector, or student of the keris, who has been at the game for a little while, and given only cursory attention to the plethora of information that is available, has probably got a pretty good idea of the basics that he needs.

There probably is no "touchstone", in the sense of one single rule of thumb that can be universally applied to help a beginning collector make decisions, but as has come through in the discussion to date, people decide what is legitimate in accordance with their own area of interest or attraction.

If we care to consider the way in which collectors who are a part of Indonesian society frame their parameters, we can most certainly identify the standards of value that they apply when deciding whether any particular keris is a worthwhile addition for their own collection.

They may collect on the basis of tangguh, which is Solo-centric classification system that seeks to classify on the basis of point of origin in terms of place and time. They may collect on the basis of art. They may collect on the basis of the isi, or "content" of the blade in spiritual terms. They may collect only keris from a particular geographic location, or from only a specific designated maker or time. Or they may collect on a number of other bases.

There are very many ways in which a collection can be structured, but however one seeks to structure one's own collection, the parameters applied should take account of the collector's own interests and tastes. It is simply not possible to lay down a set of universally applicable rules and standards that could be used by everybody as a guide to the way in which their collection should be structured.

This then brings us back to the purpose of this thread:- an endeavour to identify how various people think of the concept of legitimacy when applied to the keris.

When somebody has a newly awakened interest in the keris, I personally feel that it is always a valuable use of time to read some of the hardcopy material that is available. There's a lot of information available on the keris, and on keris cultures, but it is mostly found in hardcopy form, rather than on the net.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd March 2014, 07:54 AM

Erik, I cannot disagree with your idea of what entitles a keris to be regarded as legitimate, but as you have already mentioned, and as I believe we all understand, this definition that you have framed would need to be applied within a window of time.

In the case of the keris, at least in respect of the Javanese keris, the intended purpose of a keris can often be identified by application of the principles of tangguh. When applied by a person with a good understanding of how this system functions the determination of the classification can point the way towards the intended purpose of the keris.

erikscollectables · 3rd March 2014, 08:49 PM

For my collection I have a preference for keris that have been in the Netherlands from the end of the Dutch Colonial period of Indonesia or before so 1950 or earlier - I think this concept is only used by some Dutch collectors and obviously is a "backward" way of thinking but it still stuck with me and applies to about 75% of the keris found here so not much of a limitation...and does not guarantee a legitimate keris in my own definition either...

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Erik, I cannot disagree with your idea of what entitles a keris to be regarded as legitimate, but as you have already mentioned, and as I believe we all understand, this definition that you have framed would need to be applied within a window of time.

In the case of the keris, at least in respect of the Javanese keris, the intended purpose of a keris can often be identified by application of the principles of tangguh. When applied by a person with a good understanding of how this system functions the determination of the classification can point the way towards the intended purpose of the keris.

Bob A · 4th March 2014, 01:23 AM

Groneman has been procured, and I regret to say I primarily look at the pictures. I'll read it eventually, no doubt.

Also, a site I visited had a reasonably extensive bibliography, and recommended Visible and Invisible Realms as an important source; while perhaps more suited to scholars than the masses, I've found it of interest so far - say, a hundred pages to date.

I didn't mean to imply - although it is perhaps the most reasonable way to look at my statement - that I/we are wandering in a fog; more like we follow our particular paths without recourse to a common or agreed-upon map of the terrain, be it visible or invisible.

Regarding choice of keris to collect, I merely follow my basic principle of obtaining what I find interesting and affordable, at such times as keris, interest and fisc coincide. Whether the interest will be retained as knowledge and experience increase is unknowable at this time and place. But tuition must be paid; knowledge may follow, but is never guaranteed.

David · 4th March 2014, 07:39 AM

Visible and Invisible Realms is one of the most valuable books i have read to date in regards to understanding the culture from which the Balinese keris comes and how it fits into the scheme of that culture.

A. G. Maisey · 4th March 2014, 10:30 PM

And when we have a grasp of Balinese culture and society, we are well on the way to an understanding of the roots of Javanese culture and society.

Yes, certainly Jawa is different now to what it was during the Hindu-Buddha period, but even today those roots are still there, they anchor present day Jawa and help to make sense of the way in which Islam has grown in Jawa. Like the roots of an old tree, the Hindu-Buddha roots of Jawa are often well hidden, but push against the tree and you can feel the existence of the roots, exactly the same as if you push against tradition in Jawa.

Bob, personally I'm not all that keen on Groneman. OK, I'm an heretic and I should be burnt at the stake, but when I measure what Groneman reports as having seen against what I have seen and what I know is possible, I am forced to the conclusion that much of what he wrote was the product of supposition, or perhaps he just did not understand. To me, Groneman has a value from an historical perspective, but that's about all.

There is one book, or booklet if you will, that really should be on the shelf of every person who has a keris interest, and that is "World of the Javanese Keris" by Garrett & Bronwen Solyom. This is the only publication of which I know, on keris, that does not contain a single error. There are things in it that I do not necessarily agree with, but that does not mean that these things are wrong, only that we were taught by different teachers.

Because the keris came from Jawa, and because Jawa is really the only place where there has been an unbroken continuance of keris culture, for anybody to gain an understanding of the keris, they must begin with Jawa. There is no alternative. Not if one wishes to understand.

But to begin with Jawa one also needs a fine understanding of the Jawa-Bali nexus.

One does not learn the keris by trying to study the keris, but rather by a study of the culture, society, art, & history of the places where it is found. It can help a lot if one also has at the very least an understanding of Bahasa Indonesia.

But if all one wishes to do is to collect objects because the objects themselves appeal, well, that's OK too, but it really does diminish pleasure and understanding to a point where sooner or later many people who function at only this level get bored and move on to collecting WWII bayonets, or perhaps SE Asian textiles.

erikscollectables · 9th March 2014, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

There is one book, or booklet if you will, that really should be on the shelf of every person who has a keris interest, and that is "World of the Javanese Keris" by Garrett & Bronwen Solyom. This is the only publication of which I know, on keris, that does not contain a single error. There are things in it that I do not necessarily agree with, but that does not mean that these things are wrong, only that we were taught by different teachers.

Found a copy of the book and ordered it - looking forward to reading it!

Regards, Erik

BluErf · 19th March 2014, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

One does not learn the keris by trying to study the keris, but rather by a study of the culture, society, art, & history of the places where it is found. It can help a lot if one also has at the very least an understanding of Bahasa Indonesia.

Indeed! I find myself reading the history of Southeast Asia, to better understand the context in which the keris evolved and existed, and it adds immense colour to the collecting of kerises. It is rewarding for me to draw the linkages between the kerises across time and geography through the lens of history. Gradually, different major keris archetypes "fall into places", and I see how they have turned out the way they have, from trade, political and ethnic influences. Right now, I am trying to draw the linkage and evolution pathway between the tajong keris and the Cirebon kerises, which I believe is the prototype of the former.

Internalizing the aesthetics of a region is also key to appreciating a keris from a region more deeply, not to mention help with identifying imitations. I find that it is very difficult to do this for the entire keris archipelago, so I can only focus deeply on one keris region at a time. For now, it is the Northern Malay keris world.

2nd March 2014, 04:41 PM	#34
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	My personal definition is very simple - intent for use (ceremonial or otherwise) in a keris bearing society made by a person onderstanding that society and the intended purpose of the keris. Otherwise, to me, it can be a piece of art or craftmanship but not a keris. The problem with intent is that it is not "measurable" after the fact, although there may be clues to what the intent could have been. In my earlier defintions traditions of making were of influence as well but such traditions are everchanging so it can not be a sustainable definition. Regards, Erik Last edited by erikscollectables; 2nd March 2014 at 05:44 PM.

28th February 2014, 09:35 AM	#31
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Very interesting question and answers! To me there is no generic definition of what a keris is and therefore also no generic answer to what is legitimate. The definition of what a keris is can be different to different people but also different in context, culture, location and time (and probably some more factors I did not think of) - to each combination there will be a specific defintion as outcome and compared to that definition you can decide if a keris fits - which would make it legitimate - or not. My personal definition of what a keris is has evolved over the last years which does not make my earlier definitions incorrect nor does it make my current definition correct - just different. Best regards, Erik

2nd March 2014, 11:48 AM	#32
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,896	Thanks for joining our discussion Bob. Actually, I have not given any definition of keris legitimacy, but rather, I have suggested that the idea of keris legitimacy varies widely. I do not want to deliver any lectures on why one keris may be legitimate according to my own set of values, and why another is not. Rather, I would like to try to understand the many sets of values that people with a keris interest apply when they decide the question of legitimacy for themselves. Yes, it is fair to say my ideas about the legitimacy of keris have been heavily influenced by my lengthy involvement with Javanese culture and society. However, as I have said in post #6 :- "I personally do not see any answers to this question as either right or wrong." My intention in beginning this thread was to try to gain some understanding of what people with a keris interest might consider to be a "legitimate keris" as determined by their own sets of values. Since these people will be collecting for a number of reasons, and will have various levels of knowledge and experience, as well as variation in personal preference, it is to be expected that we will see a fairly wide range of criteria expressed. I believe I've said most of what needs to be said about the idea of the "tourist keris", but one more short comment may be useful. There is no doubt that keris have been manufactured purely for sale as souvenirs or decorator items, but changing tastes in the wider community, as well as the present day stringent regulations that many countries have in place on import of weapons, seem to have just about removed those "tourist keris" from the shelves of tourist centres in Bali and Jawa. The ideas about older keris, which many collectors have regarded as "tourist keris", and I am thinking here of the well known "soldier keris", are possibly a creation of the collectors themselves, caused by the transference of their own values to an indigenous society. Bob, you have raised the question of how to decide what to include in a beginning collection. I've been asked this question more times than I could count --- probably other long term collectors have also been asked. In my opinion there is no definitive answer. You're the person who has to live with the keris, so you need to decide for yourself just what it is about the keris that appeals to you. When you have a firm idea in your mind of why you like keris, then you have a foundation stone to build on. However, having said that, if you continue to collect for any length of time, I believe you will find that your tastes, and your criteria, will change. You have raised another point I'd like to comment on, and that is in the content of the last paragraph of your post. Within Javanese and other keris bearing societies there are undoubtedly many more collectors of keris than in all of the rest of the world. At least in Javanese society, the reasons that these people collect, and thus their ideas on legitimacy in terms of their own collections, are as varied as are these reasons in the rest of the world.

2nd March 2014, 11:53 AM	#33
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,896	Erik, perhaps you may care to share at least your current thoughts on keris legitimacy with us?

3rd March 2014, 07:43 AM	#36
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,896	I can understand how this subject of keris understanding might seem a little bit confusing, Bob, but its not nearly as bad as you may think. Yes, there are probably a few people wandering around in a fog wondering what the whole thing is all about, but any collector, or student of the keris, who has been at the game for a little while, and given only cursory attention to the plethora of information that is available, has probably got a pretty good idea of the basics that he needs. There probably is no "touchstone", in the sense of one single rule of thumb that can be universally applied to help a beginning collector make decisions, but as has come through in the discussion to date, people decide what is legitimate in accordance with their own area of interest or attraction. If we care to consider the way in which collectors who are a part of Indonesian society frame their parameters, we can most certainly identify the standards of value that they apply when deciding whether any particular keris is a worthwhile addition for their own collection. They may collect on the basis of tangguh, which is Solo-centric classification system that seeks to classify on the basis of point of origin in terms of place and time. They may collect on the basis of art. They may collect on the basis of the isi, or "content" of the blade in spiritual terms. They may collect only keris from a particular geographic location, or from only a specific designated maker or time. Or they may collect on a number of other bases. There are very many ways in which a collection can be structured, but however one seeks to structure one's own collection, the parameters applied should take account of the collector's own interests and tastes. It is simply not possible to lay down a set of universally applicable rules and standards that could be used by everybody as a guide to the way in which their collection should be structured. This then brings us back to the purpose of this thread:- an endeavour to identify how various people think of the concept of legitimacy when applied to the keris. When somebody has a newly awakened interest in the keris, I personally feel that it is always a valuable use of time to read some of the hardcopy material that is available. There's a lot of information available on the keris, and on keris cultures, but it is mostly found in hardcopy form, rather than on the net.

3rd March 2014, 07:54 AM	#37
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,896	Erik, I cannot disagree with your idea of what entitles a keris to be regarded as legitimate, but as you have already mentioned, and as I believe we all understand, this definition that you have framed would need to be applied within a window of time. In the case of the keris, at least in respect of the Javanese keris, the intended purpose of a keris can often be identified by application of the principles of tangguh. When applied by a person with a good understanding of how this system functions the determination of the classification can point the way towards the intended purpose of the keris.

4th March 2014, 01:23 AM	#39
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 427	Groneman has been procured, and I regret to say I primarily look at the pictures. I'll read it eventually, no doubt. Also, a site I visited had a reasonably extensive bibliography, and recommended Visible and Invisible Realms as an important source; while perhaps more suited to scholars than the masses, I've found it of interest so far - say, a hundred pages to date. I didn't mean to imply - although it is perhaps the most reasonable way to look at my statement - that I/we are wandering in a fog; more like we follow our particular paths without recourse to a common or agreed-upon map of the terrain, be it visible or invisible. Regarding choice of keris to collect, I merely follow my basic principle of obtaining what I find interesting and affordable, at such times as keris, interest and fisc coincide. Whether the interest will be retained as knowledge and experience increase is unknowable at this time and place. But tuition must be paid; knowledge may follow, but is never guaranteed.

4th March 2014, 07:39 AM	#40
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Visible and Invisible Realms is one of the most valuable books i have read to date in regards to understanding the culture from which the Balinese keris comes and how it fits into the scheme of that culture.

4th March 2014, 10:30 PM	#41
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,896	And when we have a grasp of Balinese culture and society, we are well on the way to an understanding of the roots of Javanese culture and society. Yes, certainly Jawa is different now to what it was during the Hindu-Buddha period, but even today those roots are still there, they anchor present day Jawa and help to make sense of the way in which Islam has grown in Jawa. Like the roots of an old tree, the Hindu-Buddha roots of Jawa are often well hidden, but push against the tree and you can feel the existence of the roots, exactly the same as if you push against tradition in Jawa. Bob, personally I'm not all that keen on Groneman. OK, I'm an heretic and I should be burnt at the stake, but when I measure what Groneman reports as having seen against what I have seen and what I know is possible, I am forced to the conclusion that much of what he wrote was the product of supposition, or perhaps he just did not understand. To me, Groneman has a value from an historical perspective, but that's about all. There is one book, or booklet if you will, that really should be on the shelf of every person who has a keris interest, and that is "World of the Javanese Keris" by Garrett & Bronwen Solyom. This is the only publication of which I know, on keris, that does not contain a single error. There are things in it that I do not necessarily agree with, but that does not mean that these things are wrong, only that we were taught by different teachers. Because the keris came from Jawa, and because Jawa is really the only place where there has been an unbroken continuance of keris culture, for anybody to gain an understanding of the keris, they must begin with Jawa. There is no alternative. Not if one wishes to understand. But to begin with Jawa one also needs a fine understanding of the Jawa-Bali nexus. One does not learn the keris by trying to study the keris, but rather by a study of the culture, society, art, & history of the places where it is found. It can help a lot if one also has at the very least an understanding of Bahasa Indonesia. But if all one wishes to do is to collect objects because the objects themselves appeal, well, that's OK too, but it really does diminish pleasure and understanding to a point where sooner or later many people who function at only this level get bored and move on to collecting WWII bayonets, or perhaps SE Asian textiles.