Hunting Sword no1

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

After the French revolution it became the habit to erase FDL from blades...

Bravo Hotspur!! on the great details you have placed on Forum...Thanks ...excellent support ya!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding teamwork!!! This is exactly what I meant!! Ibrahiim and Mark thank you for continued support and input. It is truly rewarding to see everybody working together in sharing ideas and material, and Norman and Fernando are super sleuths ( theres that word again Nando ) at finding superbly pertinent examples reflecting important comparisons with everybody else right along with them.

Glen, there you are!!! and I was quietly hoping you would come in here. There are few who have the kind of resources you have on these weapons and you've been at it a long time. Thank you so much for taking the time to add in these valuable resources!!!

We may not have an definite solution as yet to these mysterious fleur de lys stamps on these weapons, but I think we know a heck of a lot more on the use of these distinct symbols as markings than before.

Thank you everybody!!!

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Glen,
Many thanks for taking the time and effort in composing your post, much appreciated.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
I would like to thank all who participated in this thread and thread No2. It need not stop here therefore if you have any further input large or small please don't be shy.
Regards to All,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

http://www.armsregister.com/articles..._cutlasses.pdf



Hi,
The above article garnered from another thread mentions the Fleur de Lys stamp being the mark of a T Hollier 1720-1740.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Another thread that mentions Hollier. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=504

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Norman,..Here is a further link on that T Hollier situation see #6 on ~

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23367

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Ibrahiim,
Many thanks for your interest as always. I had already pinched your excellent link to the Armsregister article (see my post no 35) but thanks for keeping the thread going.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

To add more to this, becoming more a study of the use of imported blades and the FDL (fluer de lis) mark:

The T. Hollier listed appears to be Thomas Hollier, who operated an armoury for the Board of Ordnance at Lewisham, 1716-53. I found this in notes 'passim' so uncertain of source.

Interesting text in Aylward (1945, 32-35) regarding London Cutlers Co.
This seems a loosely run organization which was simply a nominal entity through the 18th century, unable to check import of blades, nor maintain accurate records of cutlers.
Bladesmiths were at low ebb in 18th c. and relied in imports from Solingen. Actually 'cutlers' were a multi faceted group who served in other functions as goldsmiths, jewelers, and sundry trades which included gun smithing.
As gun smiths often mounted (hilted) blades, and seem to have favored the fluer de lis in various forms as a mark, usually accompanied by their initials, perhaps these blades were either marked in Solingen with this mark, or it was applied by vendors as parcels arrived in England.

I would remind here, that the FDL was not universally symbolic of France, though they certainly predominated in its use, but actually was more mindful as the Christian symbol for the Virgin. It is in this sense that the FDL is boldly represented on the morion helmets of the Munich Town Guard.

In most of what I have found in markings compendiums, as noted, the fluer de lis variations occur much more frequently in gun smiths, and references have suggested the FDL was never used as a sword cutlers mark. However, it would seem to have had other implications, and not in the manner of the talismanic or 'brand' style of running wolf and others but more a quality assurance common to English clientele.

Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons" 1971, p.42) notes that sword cutlers were called 'hilters' and ordered 'white' (unmounted, blank) blades from Solingen.
Sword cutlers (hilters) would congregate in business districts and coffee houses where they would bid on parcels of these 'white' blades.

One of these districts in England had a street named 'Fleur de Lis' street, which was possibly named for the populous of French merchants and artisans situated there.

It is tempting to consider that perhaps blades purchased and mounted in this area gained a 'brand' with the FDL, and perhaps these were brokered out to cutlers in other areas. It seems possible that there may have been a semblance of 'quality' brand like the running wolf etc. and the placement on the blade in same central area. There are numbers of British military hanger, cutlass and sword blades it seems through the 18th c. with such FDL marks.
The company of cutlers at Hallanshire (Sheffield) focused on daggers seems to have used the FDL.

It seems that through the 18th c. up to the turn of the century, there was a kind of anarchy in the control of sword blades, and perhaps these established and known 'quality' marks served as some assurance prior to the standardization of proof of these blades in England by government departments.

While these are admittedly loosely presented bits from my disheveled notes, I hope they might offer some insight into the climate of sword production in England in the 18th century.

[M ELEY]

Excellent to see this old thread resurrected. It answered a question that had been bugging me for years. In an old auction catalog I had, there was a brass hilted so called dog head English cutlass, ca. 1690-1700 with the FDL marking on it. At the time, I was quite flummoxed by it and kept wondering if it had been captured and re-stamped in France. With the excellent information presented here, I now have my answer-

[M ELEY]

Omitted in error.