Thouma Jambiya by BOUSANI - Page 2

ariel · 22nd June 2012, 08:04 PM

I guess the "hands-on" source of info is tremendously important. When local contemporary masters who are actively involved in restoration of old weapons and manufacture of new ones tell me that they can see signs of renovation and of recent assembly, I tend to take their opinion seriously.
There is nothing personal here. That's what this Forum is for. If we want to hold our collections in unqualified esteem, we should not show them to strangers and ask for input. We may have our balloons popped. Some of mine certainly were :-)
With best wishes to all.

kahnjar1 · 22nd June 2012, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I guess the "hands-on" source of info is tremendously important. When local contemporary masters who are actively involved in restoration of old weapons and manufacture of new ones tell me that they can see signs of renovation and of recent assembly, I tend to take their opinion seriously.
There is nothing personal here. That's what this Forum is for. If we want to hold our collections in unqualified esteem, we should not show them to strangers and ask for input. We may have our balloons popped. Some of mine certainly were :-)
With best wishes to all.

I totally agree that "hands on" experience is the best way to judge. Most of the "comments" here are coming from a position (in his own words) of lack of knowledge of Yemeni items. I have absolutely no doubt that Ibrahiims knowledge of OMANI items is vaste, but we are not talking Omani.
Please don't get me wrong, as if I was not seeking comment (good and bad) I would not have posted this Jambiya here. I have however total confidence in Steve Gracie, who would have one of the best collections of Yemeni items outside Yemen. He is also well travelled in that area, and has a wealth of knowledge on the subject.
This Jambiya has "been around" but is NOT as Ibrahiim seems to think a "put together piece". We will leave that description for those who manufacture replicas.

ariel · 22nd June 2012, 09:42 PM

I might have missed something: are you saying that Mr. Gracie personally examined this jambiya? If so, I would value his opinion very much.. Having said that, I also know that even the best specialists in any particular area often disagree. One chooses which expert to believe :-)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd June 2012, 07:21 AM

Salaams Khanjar 1 and Ariel.
Well its not a replica. But its also not what you say it is at #1; A Bawsani Thouma. Its probably got a bit of Bawsani on it..I mean its like an airy room. Its got "some" air in it.

This project Thuma is floated in as a Bawsani under the banner A Bawsani Thouma. Personally I think there is more than one Jewish craftsmans silver platework here but its not all originally from one workshop( there may be as many as 6 Jewish silver plates/items involved and I can see the workshop program that has assembled it. Im not saying that is bad... I'm saying that assuming it to be a Bawsani Thuma is a big stretch. On that note you may wish to re work your #1 description to realign your assumptions; I see nothing wrong with that.

I spend a lot of time redoing past theories when I realise something is not quite right. Bawsani work on a Yemeni Thouma may be a reasonable place to start re aligning the thread no? That way it opens the door to a rich potential development based on Jewish-Yemeni craftsmanship.

It is unlikely, however, the scabbard and silver belt parts may be Bawsani and/or a closely related workshop but from different periods ~ You could further argue that there is as much as about 50 years difference in the age on the throat rectangle compared to the other pieces and I would go along with that. That alone makes it worth studying.

As I said before it would be worth looking to see if there are stamps on the other plates. That at least leaves the door open for further discussion regarding what you may have to hand.

I suspect a slight change in the name be investigated as Bawsani and if Dom can please look at that on the stamp. The web reference for this family stamp is http://www.arabiafelixjewels.com/tag...ewish-filigree and they worked at the House of Baws or Beit Baws. The beads are also called Bawsani. See also Garner, R. 2003 The maker's mark in Yemeni jewelry. Ornament 26 (4): 38-41. under Notes at the end of this post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Notes to Library; The following is by Anisa Naon and is a bit of background on Yemeni work so that already we begin to roll out this thread to where I believe it ought to be going... along a rich road of discovery on the subject of Yemeni and Jewish-Yemeni silver craftsmanship ~ This document is as is uncorrected for prose and grammar (but the last few lines are outlined in bold by me.) There is, however, great beauty in her use of words viz;

Quote" The Ethnic Use of Silver Jewellery in Yemen
The Ethnic Use of Silver Jewellery in Yemen
By Anisa Naon.

The use of Jewellery has always been very extended in the Yemeni society, and it's an interesting fact, that Jews and Muslims wore different pieces of jewellery. There was a big difference in the use of traditional jewels, from one area of the country to other areas, what was worn and when was clearly defined in each place.
The ambar beads were mostly used by Sanaani Muslim women, but in rural areas was also worn by Jewish girls.
Rural areas presented less differences than big cities like Sana'a. The city life for Jews was more interior and had less contact with the Muslim population.
Most of the jewelers were Jewish themselves and they used to work lots of hours in minimum details to generate that beauties made of fine filigree.
The fact that the costume for Jewish and for Muslim women was different, shows another reason for the different jewels worn. Muslim women used to wear headscarves, and Jewish women wore a complement called gargush, that looks like a hood. The jewellery needed by Muslim women was mostly to keep the scarves together.The Jewish jewels were pieces to add to the hood, like filigree gold, silver brooches,coins like the Maria Theresia Thaler, and several dangling beads. Some of the pendants on the gargush had the shape of daylife things like the grains of wheat or barley, used to make everyday bread. The shapes representing the fertility of the nature give a symbolic meaning to the costume and jewellery.
Other interesting aspect in the relations between Muslim and Jewish in Yemen was the fact that for some specific occasions, it was important to wear jewels made by "the other" meaning who is not us, our community or made by a foreigner. Those jewels were supposed to possess a special blessing (baraka). The dugags of spheric beads where normally used by Muslim women daily, but Jewish women used to wear them specially on the wedding day. Jewish children also use to wear spheric dugags for extra protection. The special care for women and children comes from the exposure to many pregnancies without medical care and the natural vulnerability of the children.
Jewish silversmiths used to have Muslim and Jewish customers, they also used to work for the royal Muslims, working specially with gold instead of the usual silver. These jewelers also worked doing decoration for the daggers worn by Muslims but not by the Jewish men. This decoration includes some parts of the dagger like amulets and other accessories used with the belt and the djambia
It´s an interesting point that some of the jewelers were rabbis, they used to study the sacred texts and also dedicate their life to silversmithing. What i find very interesting is that, as they were students of the Kabalah and the Bible, they knew the symbolic meaning if the designs, their amuletic connotations and their connection to the Kabalistic texts. The fine techniques used in the creation of Yemeni jewellery was passed generation after generation as family secrets. During the last Imam rule of Yemen, some Jewish silvermiths were called to teach their knowledge to Muslim jewelers, as most of the Jewish community was leaving the country to go to The Holy Land. Nowadays there are some newly Jewish style jewels, but the original antique ones show the finest techniques, like the Bedihi granulation and the finest examples of Bawsani filigree". Unquote

Further reading:
Colyer Ross, H. 1978 Bedouin Jewelry in Saudi Arabia. London, Stacey International:

Garner, R. 2003 The maker's mark in Yemeni jewelry. Ornament 26 (4): 38-41.

Jenkins, M. and M. Keene 1982 Islamic Jewelry in the Metropolitan Museum of Art. New York, The Metropolitan Museum of Art:

Muchawsky-Schnapper, E. 2000 The Yemenites: Two Thousand Years of Jewish Culture. Jerusalem,The Israel Museum:

spiral · 23rd June 2012, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

If we want to hold our collections in unqualified esteem, we should not show them to strangers and ask for input. We may have our balloons popped.

Excelent & very true comment Ariel.

A fascinating thread indeed.

I dont know if it helps but heres a fewsnippets to add to the pot.

First a couple of silver marks...

I wonder if they are of relevance here I suspect they are?

Secondly. In "cult of the Jambiya" by Schuyler V.R. Camman {1977}

Schuler states several intersting things re. the Yemeni jambiya inc....

Spiral

Pics arranged as decided by forum software!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th June 2012, 07:28 AM

Salaams all~ Nice reference by Spiral. Heres the full story on that ~ see
http://www.penn.museum/documents/pub...-2/Cammann.pdf

~and the biography of this amazing man (Schuyler V.R. Camman) which can be seen on interesting jambiya on eBay by Lew at #40. The stamps shown by Spiral are very significant as one is identical to the mark at #1 of this thread.

I am sure that Dom will be all over these stamps fairly immediately !

I wonder if anyone has the stamp record I showed previously as Garner, R. 2003 The maker's mark in Yemeni jewelry. Ornament 26 (4): 38-41.

The Cammann visit was sometime ago... 1977 therefor I expect documentary proof in work written since then to be further enhanced and look forward to getting Steven Gracies book.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th June 2012, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Excelent & very true comment Ariel.

A fascinating thread indeed.

I dont know if it helps but heres a fewsnippets to add to the pot.

First a couple of silver marks...

I wonder if they are of relevance here I suspect they are?

Secondly. In "cult of the Jambiya" by Schuyler V.R. Camman {1977}

Schuler states several intersting things re. the Yemeni jambiya inc....

Spiral

Pics arranged as decided by forum software!

Salaams Spiral ~ Did you get a reference for those 2 stamps? One is is identical to the stamp on the subject item at #1 but the other I dont know. I also see stamps on Recent Jambiya and a new Khanjar by archer. I feel certain that in time we will blow the lid off the subject of Yemeni stamps once that book reference is tracked down Garner, R. 2003 The maker's mark in Yemeni jewelry. Ornament 26 (4): 38-41.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

spiral · 25th June 2012, 11:40 AM

Salams Ibrahiim,

I am awaiting translation to see whether the first mark is relevent, it on a piece of jewelry possibly from the family concerned?

From the works I have read. I understand Bawsani is often used for work done in the Bawsani style in Saana. Which could cause problems with research there on occasion I imagine.

The identicle mark I hoped would offer more info as it seems clearer to me?

It is from a Jambiya currently up for sale on the net. Its very good & I am sure old work.

The magazine your after can be ordered from there website.

http://www.ornamentmagazine.com/stor...ilter_tag=26.4

Spiral

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th June 2012, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Salams Ibrahiim,

I am awaiting translation to see whether the first mark is relevent, it on a piece of jewelry possibly from the family concerned?

From the works I have read. I understand Bawsani is often used for work done in the Bawsani style in Saana. Which could cause problems with research there on occasion I imagine.

The identicle mark I hoped would offer more info as it seems clearer to me?

It is from a Jambiya currently up for sale on the net. Its very good & I am sure old work.

The magazine your after can be ordered from there website.

http://www.ornamentmagazine.com/stor...ilter_tag=26.4

Spiral

Salaams Spiral I see it now ya...Shukran~ There is another stamp at http://www.arabiafelixjewels.com/ant...-necklace.html
on a pendant....
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Dom · 25th June 2012, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I am sure that Dom will be all over these stamps fairly immediately !

aleikum salam
Ibrahiim ... you wrote immediately

but it's without to take in your account, the difficulty of reading ...
even, after headache, a name (?) didn't found a translation ...

now here our statement;

- the stamp recorded on pic as n°1 is the same origin than already translated
AARON BEN CHAMAT his Jewish root is without doubt

- the stamp recorded on pic as n°2 is different and is without contest from an Muslim workshop,
is consisting of names, but one hasn't be translated (?)
in the sens of reading;
- in "yellow" ... HUSSEIN
- in "white" ... (?)
- in "green" ... MOHLESS
- in "red" ... SAYED

colors aren't for puerile beautification ...

it's just to justify to the Arabic readers, our understanding,
and to give them a chance to correct if necessary

sorry, if that has been a bit long ... but really not easy

à +

Dom

spiral · 25th June 2012, 05:50 PM

Many thanks Dom!

Yes Ibrahiim , Ive seen that stamp, is it applied on a seperate piece of metal? I dont know if thats common in Yemeni jewelry , but in many countries it how stamps are "moved" from one peice of jewelry to another to give fake provinance.

So the Muslim one we can discount for this discusian.

Here a picture showing the front of the chape carrying the same mark as yours Khanjar.

I have clipped it down in size as it is still currently for sale. {Unfortuanatly its hilt is very sad one.

}

Spiral

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th June 2012, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Many thanks Dom!

Yes Ibrahiim , Ive seen that stamp, is it applied on a seperate piece of metal? I dont know if thats common in Yemeni jewelry , but in many countries it how stamps are "moved" from one peice of jewelry to another to give fake provinance.

So the Muslim one we can discount for this discusian.

Here a picture showing the front of the chape carrying the same mark as yours Khanjar.

I have clipped it down in size as it is still currently for sale. {Unfortuanatly its hilt is very sad one.

}

Spiral

Salaams spiral. This is great support work and thanks to Dom..

What seems to be confirmed is the same stamp on a girth belt buckle at #1 and a stamp on a separate scabbard plate from a different Thouma shown. I think the Islamic stamp on the jewellery is worth noting (it is excellent to have stamps looked at from the region and well worth cataloging.) but may be sidelined from this debate since the major probe is on Jewish-Yemeni work.

I remind Forum that the rectangular plate at # 1 is older than the other furniture on the weapon and that as yet no ID has been received(yet) of other stamps on the #1 item. In addition questions on authenticity of hilt (and hilt adornment) and blade remain placing pressure on the likelihood of this being all of one workshops namely the House of Baws and pre 1949, though, frankly the thread moves on and hopefully can address other issues concerning Jewish-Yemeni craftsmanship, style and stamp recognition.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th June 2012, 06:24 PM

Salaams, Forum Library note : see https://organicafricanredtea.com/ima...n_jewel_en.pdf for an outstanding reference on Jewish-Yemeni craftsmanship and a lot more.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

spiral · 26th June 2012, 11:40 PM

mmmm.... I didnt link to that one Ibrahiim as thats where the stamp I posted earliercame from, identified as clearly Muslim by Dom ... Which means pdf.material isnt 100% reliable... Its not all Yeminite Jewish work after all.

Great pics & fascinating history though!

Glad you can get the article on the marks now, It may be an interesting piece...

Spiral

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th June 2012, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

mmmm.... I didnt link to that one Ibrahiim as thats where the stamp I posted earliercame from, identified as clearly Muslim by Dom ... Which means pdf.material isnt 100% reliable... Its not all Yeminite Jewish work after all.

Great pics & fascinating history though!

Glad you can get the article on the marks now, It may be an interesting piece...

Spiral

Salaams Spiral ~ Ah yes I see that now... I normally trawl web pages as far back as about page 6 then give up ! In this case a useful search . I think there may well be corrupted stamps but at least we can then advance the library understanding since we would then be considering known stamp marks and known style and who knows in the furure we can identify such copies as spurious... I don't have the reference though its cheap enough I will get it eventually !
It opens the door to further detective work and hopefully a forum catalogue of Jewish-Yemeni silver stamps.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 3rd July 2012, 07:45 PM

Salaams,
Note to Library The thread appears to have ground to a halt ~ Does that mean # 1 will not be modified to read, in a balanced way, what it is known to have as original House of Baws parts or whatever the stamp is on the girth buckle whilst other parts may have been added later?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

kahnjar1 · 4th July 2012, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams,
Note to Library The thread appears to have ground to a halt ~ Does that mean # 1 will not be modified to read, in a balanced way, what it is known to have as original House of Baws parts or whatever the stamp is on the girth buckle whilst other parts may have been added later?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

............If you check #23 this question has been answered with the only information I have. Make from this what you will...................

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th July 2012, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

............If you check #23 this question has been answered with the only information I have. Make from this what you will...................

Salaams kahnjar1 In the absence of further information from your side and though we would expect some enlightenment from you since you hold the item, we don't ~Your wish is my command ~

"Whilst you wouldn't come right out and agree that its a fake you would agree that its not 100 % genuine House of Baws... in fact only the girth buckle may be... the rest could be add ons".

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

kahnjar1 · 4th July 2012, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams kahnjar1 In the absence of further information from your side and though we would expect some enlightenment from you since you hold the item, we don't ~Your wish is my command ~

"Whilst you wouldn't come right out and agree that its a fake you would agree that its not 100 % genuine House of Baws... in fact only the girth buckle may be... the rest could be add ons".

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Quite frankly I don't know what else you expect me to say. I have given you, and the rest who have replied here, all the information I have.
I find your suggestion that this is a fake quite insulting, but then I would expect nothing less from one who is in the business of making copies.

I do not intend to reply further to your ridiculous comments.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th July 2012, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Quite frankly I don't know what else you expect me to say. I have given you, and the rest who have replied here, all the information I have.
I find your suggestion that this is a fake quite insulting, but then I would expect nothing less from one who is in the business of making copies.

I do not intend to reply further to your ridiculous comments.

Salaams kahnjar1 Might that be your final word on the matter of the supposed House of Baws Thoumah or can we expect some in depth research proving the provenance one way or the other? You should, perhaps, learn to write without emotion since sending posts that implode on impact like custard pies is hardly the level of expertise we require for serious input.. Anyway so having chucked your toys out of the pram we assume you have given up trying to float this as "the genuine article" but would agree on certain interesting aspects of the project as being genuine though not the 100% for which it was initially attributed.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th July 2012, 07:35 PM

Salaams Note for Library.

The term "copy" raises its head now and again and I would like to address the situation regarding copying in the world of Omani Khanjars (and no doubt the same situation exists in most other related regional issues) and other tribal accessories such as Islamic silver. To that end I am opening a post to cover that important lesson see "The Omani Khanjar" for that detail.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

23rd June 2012, 07:21 AM	#34
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Khanjar 1 and Ariel. Well its not a replica. But its also not what you say it is at #1; A Bawsani Thouma. Its probably got a bit of Bawsani on it..I mean its like an airy room. Its got "some" air in it. This project Thuma is floated in as a Bawsani under the banner A Bawsani Thouma. Personally I think there is more than one Jewish craftsmans silver platework here but its not all originally from one workshop( there may be as many as 6 Jewish silver plates/items involved and I can see the workshop program that has assembled it. Im not saying that is bad... I'm saying that assuming it to be a Bawsani Thuma is a big stretch. On that note you may wish to re work your #1 description to realign your assumptions; I see nothing wrong with that. I spend a lot of time redoing past theories when I realise something is not quite right. Bawsani work on a Yemeni Thouma may be a reasonable place to start re aligning the thread no? That way it opens the door to a rich potential development based on Jewish-Yemeni craftsmanship. It is unlikely, however, the scabbard and silver belt parts may be Bawsani and/or a closely related workshop but from different periods ~ You could further argue that there is as much as about 50 years difference in the age on the throat rectangle compared to the other pieces and I would go along with that. That alone makes it worth studying. As I said before it would be worth looking to see if there are stamps on the other plates. That at least leaves the door open for further discussion regarding what you may have to hand. I suspect a slight change in the name be investigated as Bawsani and if Dom can please look at that on the stamp. The web reference for this family stamp is http://www.arabiafelixjewels.com/tag...ewish-filigree and they worked at the House of Baws or Beit Baws. The beads are also called Bawsani. See also Garner, R. 2003 The maker's mark in Yemeni jewelry. Ornament 26 (4): 38-41. under Notes at the end of this post. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Notes to Library; The following is by Anisa Naon and is a bit of background on Yemeni work so that already we begin to roll out this thread to where I believe it ought to be going... along a rich road of discovery on the subject of Yemeni and Jewish-Yemeni silver craftsmanship ~ This document is as is uncorrected for prose and grammar (but the last few lines are outlined in bold by me.) There is, however, great beauty in her use of words viz; Quote" The Ethnic Use of Silver Jewellery in Yemen The Ethnic Use of Silver Jewellery in Yemen By Anisa Naon. The use of Jewellery has always been very extended in the Yemeni society, and it's an interesting fact, that Jews and Muslims wore different pieces of jewellery. There was a big difference in the use of traditional jewels, from one area of the country to other areas, what was worn and when was clearly defined in each place. The ambar beads were mostly used by Sanaani Muslim women, but in rural areas was also worn by Jewish girls. Rural areas presented less differences than big cities like Sana'a. The city life for Jews was more interior and had less contact with the Muslim population. Most of the jewelers were Jewish themselves and they used to work lots of hours in minimum details to generate that beauties made of fine filigree. The fact that the costume for Jewish and for Muslim women was different, shows another reason for the different jewels worn. Muslim women used to wear headscarves, and Jewish women wore a complement called gargush, that looks like a hood. The jewellery needed by Muslim women was mostly to keep the scarves together.The Jewish jewels were pieces to add to the hood, like filigree gold, silver brooches,coins like the Maria Theresia Thaler, and several dangling beads. Some of the pendants on the gargush had the shape of daylife things like the grains of wheat or barley, used to make everyday bread. The shapes representing the fertility of the nature give a symbolic meaning to the costume and jewellery. Other interesting aspect in the relations between Muslim and Jewish in Yemen was the fact that for some specific occasions, it was important to wear jewels made by "the other" meaning who is not us, our community or made by a foreigner. Those jewels were supposed to possess a special blessing (baraka). The dugags of spheric beads where normally used by Muslim women daily, but Jewish women used to wear them specially on the wedding day. Jewish children also use to wear spheric dugags for extra protection. The special care for women and children comes from the exposure to many pregnancies without medical care and the natural vulnerability of the children. Jewish silversmiths used to have Muslim and Jewish customers, they also used to work for the royal Muslims, working specially with gold instead of the usual silver. These jewelers also worked doing decoration for the daggers worn by Muslims but not by the Jewish men. This decoration includes some parts of the dagger like amulets and other accessories used with the belt and the djambia It´s an interesting point that some of the jewelers were rabbis, they used to study the sacred texts and also dedicate their life to silversmithing. What i find very interesting is that, as they were students of the Kabalah and the Bible, they knew the symbolic meaning if the designs, their amuletic connotations and their connection to the Kabalistic texts. The fine techniques used in the creation of Yemeni jewellery was passed generation after generation as family secrets. During the last Imam rule of Yemen, some Jewish silvermiths were called to teach their knowledge to Muslim jewelers, as most of the Jewish community was leaving the country to go to The Holy Land. Nowadays there are some newly Jewish style jewels, but the original antique ones show the finest techniques, like the Bedihi granulation and the finest examples of Bawsani filigree". Unquote Further reading: Colyer Ross, H. 1978 Bedouin Jewelry in Saudi Arabia. London, Stacey International: Garner, R. 2003 The maker's mark in Yemeni jewelry. Ornament 26 (4): 38-41. Jenkins, M. and M. Keene 1982 Islamic Jewelry in the Metropolitan Museum of Art. New York, The Metropolitan Museum of Art: Muchawsky-Schnapper, E. 2000 The Yemenites: Two Thousand Years of Jewish Culture. Jerusalem,The Israel Museum: Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 23rd June 2012 at 10:20 AM.

24th June 2012, 07:28 AM	#36
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all~ Nice reference by Spiral. Heres the full story on that ~ see http://www.penn.museum/documents/pub...-2/Cammann.pdf ~and the biography of this amazing man (Schuyler V.R. Camman) which can be seen on interesting jambiya on eBay by Lew at #40. The stamps shown by Spiral are very significant as one is identical to the mark at #1 of this thread. I am sure that Dom will be all over these stamps fairly immediately ! I wonder if anyone has the stamp record I showed previously as Garner, R. 2003 The maker's mark in Yemeni jewelry. Ornament 26 (4): 38-41. The Cammann visit was sometime ago... 1977 therefor I expect documentary proof in work written since then to be further enhanced and look forward to getting Steven Gracies book. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 24th June 2012 at 07:53 AM.

25th June 2012, 05:50 PM	#41
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Many thanks Dom! Yes Ibrahiim , Ive seen that stamp, is it applied on a seperate piece of metal? I dont know if thats common in Yemeni jewelry , but in many countries it how stamps are "moved" from one peice of jewelry to another to give fake provinance. So the Muslim one we can discount for this discusian. Here a picture showing the front of the chape carrying the same mark as yours Khanjar. I have clipped it down in size as it is still currently for sale. {Unfortuanatly its hilt is very sad one. } Spiral Attached Images

6th July 2012, 07:35 PM	#51
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	The Copy. Salaams Note for Library. The term "copy" raises its head now and again and I would like to address the situation regarding copying in the world of Omani Khanjars (and no doubt the same situation exists in most other related regional issues) and other tribal accessories such as Islamic silver. To that end I am opening a post to cover that important lesson see "The Omani Khanjar" for that detail. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi

22nd June 2012, 08:04 PM	#31
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I guess the "hands-on" source of info is tremendously important. When local contemporary masters who are actively involved in restoration of old weapons and manufacture of new ones tell me that they can see signs of renovation and of recent assembly, I tend to take their opinion seriously. There is nothing personal here. That's what this Forum is for. If we want to hold our collections in unqualified esteem, we should not show them to strangers and ask for input. We may have our balloons popped. Some of mine certainly were :-) With best wishes to all.

22nd June 2012, 09:42 PM	#33
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I might have missed something: are you saying that Mr. Gracie personally examined this jambiya? If so, I would value his opinion very much.. Having said that, I also know that even the best specialists in any particular area often disagree. One chooses which expert to believe :-)

25th June 2012, 11:40 AM	#38
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Salams Ibrahiim, I am awaiting translation to see whether the first mark is relevent, it on a piece of jewelry possibly from the family concerned? From the works I have read. I understand Bawsani is often used for work done in the Bawsani style in Saana. Which could cause problems with research there on occasion I imagine. The identicle mark I hoped would offer more info as it seems clearer to me? It is from a Jambiya currently up for sale on the net. Its very good & I am sure old work. The magazine your after can be ordered from there website. http://www.ornamentmagazine.com/stor...ilter_tag=26.4 Spiral

26th June 2012, 06:24 PM	#43
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams, Forum Library note : see https://organicafricanredtea.com/ima...n_jewel_en.pdf for an outstanding reference on Jewish-Yemeni craftsmanship and a lot more. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

26th June 2012, 11:40 PM	#44
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	mmmm.... I didnt link to that one Ibrahiim as thats where the stamp I posted earliercame from, identified as clearly Muslim by Dom ... Which means pdf.material isnt 100% reliable... Its not all Yeminite Jewish work after all. Great pics & fascinating history though! Glad you can get the article on the marks now, It may be an interesting piece... Spiral

3rd July 2012, 07:45 PM	#46
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams, Note to Library The thread appears to have ground to a halt ~ Does that mean # 1 will not be modified to read, in a balanced way, what it is known to have as original House of Baws parts or whatever the stamp is on the girth buckle whilst other parts may have been added later? Ibrahiim al Balooshi.