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#31 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
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Hi SuperManuel,
(I certainly won't go corrupting your both lordly and heavenly name! ![]() You are perfectly right - how could I forget Mikhail? So I edited that post right away and added that version. Hope for your greatful forgiveness for this one time ... ![]() Yeah, a thread on dismantling rapiers sounds like a great idea but I am afraid I am not the chosen one to do that. I never dismantle pommels or wire bindings. When they have obviously been together for hundreds of years that would seem a sacrilege to me. Leave untouched objects just the way they have been handed down to us, that's always been my credo. Best, Mikhail |
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#32 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
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I heard some very disturbing words here, such as "remove the pommel". PLEASE DON'T! Conceivably, there will be a situation sometime in which a pommel has to be taken off, I've had to do it in my restoration practice, but I can see that this is not the time for it since a gentleman has previously given a wonderful suggestion -- if you want to put a handle on this hilt to make the piece "complete", then simply install two shaped pieces of wood with the leather and wire overlay in period style. The wooden halves can be held together with houselhold glue or some simple adhesive to make the thing easy to handle during subsequent leather- and wire-work, but should not be glued directly to the tang in case a subsequent owner wants to remove it.
The peening of the tang into the "mushroom" over the pommel, and the subsequent rusting and patination of the surface, is a testament to the time that has passed since the sword was last fitted-up. This historical record will be destroyed if the tang is filed or ground to allow the pommel to slide off. There is also the issue of having enough metal protruding from the pommel when the hilt is eventually re-assembled, let's just not go there for now. It is possible to patinate a newly re-peened tang but the results, though better than bare metal, are never as satisfying as that which has seen the passage of centuries. For this reason, I am also loathe to clean sword tangs down to bare metal (the Japanese are truly anal-retentive about this and de-rusting a tang down to bare iron will destroy the value of a blade in their eyes). Remove active corrosion but leave the patina intact. Blades get cleaned, polished, sharpened, refinished during their working lives, but the tang tends to remain undisturbed in the hilt and the signs of age that are evident in this area should remain if at all possible. |
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#33 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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#34 | |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA
Posts: 679
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Well. Belated congrats nonetheless..!
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#35 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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This not being the case but, is there no tolerance for screw pommels?
If not, i confess i am a sinner ![]() The result was positive on the mark visualization, and no visible harm occurred with the hilt patina ![]() Fernando Last edited by fernando; 12th June 2010 at 01:54 PM. Reason: correction |
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#36 | |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA
Posts: 679
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Hi Philip,
Never fear, that's not_exactly_ what I had in mind. I agree with everything you said. OTOH, I have obtained several swords with ruined grip covers and wiring which don't seem to ever have had a preened tang. I suspect the hilt is held together by some type of internal metal hook coupled to expansion of the guard. That's the specific example I should have provided. I owned a rare Danish Hussard Saber which I had to let go, because I hated the sight of its crumbling leather grip and broken/loose grip wires. I also own a swedish naval saber, lovely in its simplicity and form, but everytime I hold it in my hand, the wire is further damaged. LBNL, I have a huge swedish M1831 saber, which I wanted to use on 18th C Historical reenactments, showing the same problem. I also have a strange english shortsword, found in Westminster's House of Commons after a Luftwaffe attack, which has its fish-skin grip cover crumbling away. All very sad pictures to me, I wish I could fix them. The following pics have nothing to do with my swords, just the type of grips I was writing about. ![]() Cheers merelyM ![]() Quote:
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#37 | |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA
Posts: 679
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Albricias, Don Fernando,
I do that routinely to my nazi daggers, and I understand its a common procedure with threaded pommels. Best M Quote:
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#38 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
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Hello Gentlemen, let me answer in turn (and huge thanks to all)
Michael, Thank you for you kind words and advice. The silicon is 'silicon carbide paper' (wet and dry) so just to even out the rust really. the Blade is double edged (definately) although it may have been accentuated by surface loss, the blade is sharp almost all the way up. Jim, Thank you, but we all just follow your lead sir ![]() David, I really don't know to be truthful. ![]() Whatever happens, I need to clean the loose rust off, and conserve it. If I keep it I would do exactly as you say with the handle, but to be honest, I usually find that I can't keep relics for long, I find the condition 'issues' niggle away at me. As for baby Alex, he is still keeping us awake at nights, but he's doing well and is an absolute joy. Thank you for asking ![]() Manuel David meant me, I became a dad 6 months ago for the first time. Philip, Never fear, I don't see any need to remove the pommel from this sword. Nando, A father 32 years ago? Is he sleeping through the night yet? ![]() -After 6 months the sleep depravation seems endless. |
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#39 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Hi Gene
Quote:
Sleeping through? always ![]() She was (is) a gift of the Gods ![]() 'Nando |
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#40 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
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Alex is a total blessing, just hard on my sleep. ![]() |
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#41 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
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Of course, my prior comments on pommel removal were penned with peened-over tangs in mind. If the hilt is held by threaded nuts, then there's no problem with taking off and replacing the components, providing the nuts can be unscrewed without encountering the vexing problem of threads frozen by deep-seated corrosion. You will probably have to improvise your own wrench or spanner if the nut isn't of a size or shape that can be gripped with commonly-available tools. Some pommel nuts are recessed, and are turned via split slots, visible on either side of the threaded bolt which is the end of the tang. A large, wide screwdriver thick enough to fit the slots will do the trick, once the center portion is filed out to clear the tang. Similar split nuts are sometimes encountered on the wooden slab grips of bayonets, cutlasses, and fascine knives (the French were fond of this type of attachment) so you may need to modify a variety of screwdriver sizes to fit these. I like the old-fashioned English-style joiners' or cabinetmakers' screwdrivers, their blades are beefy and well-tempered, and the bulbous wood handles are very ergonomic. Besides, the flattened area at the base of the shank is ideal for attaching a wrench to, so you can generate some awesome torque to back out a stubborn nut or screw.
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#42 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nipmuc USA
Posts: 496
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I recently received an item that was cleaned and conserved simply with soft cloths and paste wax. While it was minimally invasive of its then current state, what that left after a decade or so was simply cloaking dirt and even rust which continued to progress. My point, I guess is that the heavier viscosity of olive oil and any remaining "wax" is simply adding to patina instead of simple cleaning and more serious conservation. Thanks for the reply GC |
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#43 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 607
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Did you finish your conservation?
Perhaps we can see the results? |
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#44 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 607
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Also, I've searched 'tannin' and couldn't find any pharmacy products. Would anyone care to elaborate on it?
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#45 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Search for "Tannic acid".
Contained in red whine, coffe, tea, spinach, etc The formula is C76H52O46. The other day, a museum restorer also adviced this stuff. It is found, over here, in traditional drug stores. Certainly acquirable in the Internet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannic_acid |
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#46 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 607
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Thank you. I know what a tannic acid is. I was hoping it was available as a commercial product.The easiest way for me to obtain it is probably to brew some strong tea. Perhaps that's what I should do, and try it on an iron nail.
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#47 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 607
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Found this -
http://www.homebrewit.com/aisle/p/6300B |
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#48 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Good that you found it.
I was already thinking of how to get some, over here, and send it to you. |
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#49 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 607
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Will take some photos 'before and after'. |
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#50 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
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Dmitry/Gentlemen.
Its just been sat with WD40 on it to protect it while I decide what to do next. |
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#51 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 607
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For what it's worth, I wouldn't call this sword a Pappenheimer. The hilt is quite English in style and construction, at least to these green eyes.
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