?1900s Indian Army saber? - Page 2

Jim McDougall · 3rd November 2017, 07:42 PM

Tim and Jen, thank you guys so much for these most helpful photos!!!!
It really means a lot to see the weapons we discuss in real time images and in use.

Likhari · 18th November 2017, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Is there a name for this feature on the spine where the false edge begins ?
Looks like a good no nonsense weapon Tim; fully functional beauty .

Do you mean the part in this interesting example covered in gold and in the shape of a makara ?

ariel · 18th November 2017, 10:40 AM

Some time ago I asked a question whether tulwars with classical indo-persian handles continued to be manufactured in the 20th century as regulation swords for Indian military. The answer was inconclusive: Swords were made for the cavalry, but what kind?

From this thread it appears that there already were regulation swords with EUROPEAN style handles.

So my question still stands: were tulwars still used by the Indian military or were they summarily replaced?

Likhari · 18th November 2017, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Some time ago I asked a question whether tulwars with classical indo-persian handles continued to be manufactured in the 20th century as regulation swords for Indian military. The answer was inconclusive: Swords were made for the cavalry, but what kind?

From this thread it appears that there already were regulation swords with EUROPEAN style handles.

So my question still stands: were tulwars still used by the Indian military or were they summarily replaced?

Ariel the Indian Military in the 20th century was not a homogenous unit. It was made up of the British Indian Army and the armies of the Princely States. Some of the State Forces did carry the traditional tulwars as the attached picture of a Sate Cavalry Trooper shows. The British Indian Army did not carry traditional tulwars. After independence for a brief period in the 1990s one of the Indian Army Chiefs changed the ceremonial sabre to the tulwar form but they reverted back to the European influenced straight sword when he left office.

Jim McDougall · 21st November 2017, 07:55 PM

There was no doubt a great deal of diversity in the swords used in the British controlled armies of India, that is the Native forces. These were of course primarily supplied by the British government, in the early days of the Raj, the East India Company.
Certainly later in the century, there would have been few traditional or native made tulwars in the ranks, beyond of course, those used by officers who may have used heirloom weapons.

Actually, while 'colonial' forms of British pattern swords were produced by makers in England, there were instances of 'traditional' style (Indo-Persian hilt) tulwars also made for these forces. According to records from John Wilkinson-Latham using records from c 1903, a number of the Native Cavalry units selected tulwars of traditional form.
Realizing that the term 'tulwar' is used collectively for 'sword' in Indian parlance, it is noted that the other swords selected by other units are described by pattern type, (i.e, M1796; M1853 etc. ).

I have seen examples of brass cast traditional tulwar hilts made by MOLE and there have been others seen over the years. These seemed to be almost
'rack' type weapons, though I do not recall numbering.

I have also seen Indo-Persian hilts on M1796 blades bearing the etched cartouches of British officers blades; M1788 blades mounted in traditional shamshir style Indian hilts and koftari decoration added to blade; and examples of khanda hilts on British military blades later in the century.

It would be difficult to say how late tulwar forms might have been produced for Indian forces, but British sword making firms produced ethnographic form weapons for colonial regions well into the 20th century. While it would be difficult to specify the many cases, that is my opinion in general.

Likhari · 22nd November 2017, 05:59 PM

I would beg to differ with you on this one Jim.

To the best of my knowledge in the 20th Century not a single unit in the British Indian Army carried the Indian hilted tulwars. I would love to be persuaded otherwise. If you can provide any photograph or painting to prove your point I will gladly eat some crow.

The forces of the Native Princely States of course carried Indian hilted swords well into the 20th Century as I have already stated.

In the 19th Century on the other hand there was significant laxity allowed in the uniforms of the British Indian Army so much so that some soldiers in one unit would carry tulwars and others British Pattern swords as the attached picture shows:

Jim McDougall · 22nd November 2017, 10:59 PM

Well its Thanksgiving day tomorrow, and I'm afraid I'm the one who will have crow instead of turkey!

You seem to be correct, and I am afraid that my recollection was swayed by those MOLE tulwars I once had, given that MOLE was also the maker of many of the three bar hilt forms I have seen.

In "Pictorial History of Swords and Bayonets" by R.J. Wilkinson-Latham, 1973, pp.28-31, there are lists of the sword types preferred by cavalry and infantry regiments 1850-1918. I think that the instances of State troops vs. The British Indian Army also brought my misperception,
"...state troops raised and maintained at the expense of their rulers did not always follow the style used in the regular army and many variations exist in this category, some weapons engraved with the state badge while others had distinctive hilt designs made for them by British manufacturers".

Further,
"...officers swords also varied but were in the main confined to two patterns, the light cavalry of 1822 and the heavy cavalry pattern of 1856 and 1896.
Dress swords were either like the British style levee swords, or COPIES OF THE NATIVE TULWAR PATTERN".
p.30.

I think this may have added to my confusion.

Thank you so much for bringing this up, and for the clarification.
It really is good to be looking into these Indian units and weaponry here, and to get back to studies from quite a long time ago.
Really glad you're here on this, and look forward to more talks!

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd November 2017, 05:26 PM

Likhari could you please show a close up of the yelman shown in post #32, and of the whole sword if possible?

Likhari · 24th November 2017, 05:47 PM

A sword or talwar with a curved blade and an iron hilt with knuckleguard and circular pommel gilded and inlaid with diamonds and rubies around edge of pommel. The edge section of the blade near the bottom overlaid with gold to represent a makara, a dragon-like mythological creature associated with Hindu iconography. The black velvet covered wooden scabbard embroidered with seed pearls and silver gilt mounts set with diamonds.

Provenance

Presented to King Edward VII, when Prince of Wales, during his tour of India in 1875-76 by Mahendra Singh, Maharaja of Patiala.

22nd November 2017, 05:59 PM	#36
Likhari Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: USA Posts: 34	I would beg to differ with you on this one Jim. To the best of my knowledge in the 20th Century not a single unit in the British Indian Army carried the Indian hilted tulwars. I would love to be persuaded otherwise. If you can provide any photograph or painting to prove your point I will gladly eat some crow. The forces of the Native Princely States of course carried Indian hilted swords well into the 20th Century as I have already stated. In the 19th Century on the other hand there was significant laxity allowed in the uniforms of the British Indian Army so much so that some soldiers in one unit would carry tulwars and others British Pattern swords as the attached picture shows: Attached Images

24th November 2017, 05:47 PM	#39
Likhari Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: USA Posts: 34	A sword or talwar with a curved blade and an iron hilt with knuckleguard and circular pommel gilded and inlaid with diamonds and rubies around edge of pommel. The edge section of the blade near the bottom overlaid with gold to represent a makara, a dragon-like mythological creature associated with Hindu iconography. The black velvet covered wooden scabbard embroidered with seed pearls and silver gilt mounts set with diamonds. Provenance Presented to King Edward VII, when Prince of Wales, during his tour of India in 1875-76 by Mahendra Singh, Maharaja of Patiala. Attached Images

3rd November 2017, 07:42 PM	#31
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Tim and Jen, thank you guys so much for these most helpful photos!!!! It really means a lot to see the weapons we discuss in real time images and in use.

18th November 2017, 10:40 AM	#33
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Some time ago I asked a question whether tulwars with classical indo-persian handles continued to be manufactured in the 20th century as regulation swords for Indian military. The answer was inconclusive: Swords were made for the cavalry, but what kind? From this thread it appears that there already were regulation swords with EUROPEAN style handles. So my question still stands: were tulwars still used by the Indian military or were they summarily replaced?

21st November 2017, 07:55 PM	#35
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	There was no doubt a great deal of diversity in the swords used in the British controlled armies of India, that is the Native forces. These were of course primarily supplied by the British government, in the early days of the Raj, the East India Company. Certainly later in the century, there would have been few traditional or native made tulwars in the ranks, beyond of course, those used by officers who may have used heirloom weapons. Actually, while 'colonial' forms of British pattern swords were produced by makers in England, there were instances of 'traditional' style (Indo-Persian hilt) tulwars also made for these forces. According to records from John Wilkinson-Latham using records from c 1903, a number of the Native Cavalry units selected tulwars of traditional form. Realizing that the term 'tulwar' is used collectively for 'sword' in Indian parlance, it is noted that the other swords selected by other units are described by pattern type, (i.e, M1796; M1853 etc. ). I have seen examples of brass cast traditional tulwar hilts made by MOLE and there have been others seen over the years. These seemed to be almost 'rack' type weapons, though I do not recall numbering. I have also seen Indo-Persian hilts on M1796 blades bearing the etched cartouches of British officers blades; M1788 blades mounted in traditional shamshir style Indian hilts and koftari decoration added to blade; and examples of khanda hilts on British military blades later in the century. It would be difficult to say how late tulwar forms might have been produced for Indian forces, but British sword making firms produced ethnographic form weapons for colonial regions well into the 20th century. While it would be difficult to specify the many cases, that is my opinion in general.

22nd November 2017, 10:59 PM	#37
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Well its Thanksgiving day tomorrow, and I'm afraid I'm the one who will have crow instead of turkey! You seem to be correct, and I am afraid that my recollection was swayed by those MOLE tulwars I once had, given that MOLE was also the maker of many of the three bar hilt forms I have seen. In "Pictorial History of Swords and Bayonets" by R.J. Wilkinson-Latham, 1973, pp.28-31, there are lists of the sword types preferred by cavalry and infantry regiments 1850-1918. I think that the instances of State troops vs. The British Indian Army also brought my misperception, "...state troops raised and maintained at the expense of their rulers did not always follow the style used in the regular army and many variations exist in this category, some weapons engraved with the state badge while others had distinctive hilt designs made for them by British manufacturers". Further, "...officers swords also varied but were in the main confined to two patterns, the light cavalry of 1822 and the heavy cavalry pattern of 1856 and 1896. Dress swords were either like the British style levee swords, or COPIES OF THE NATIVE TULWAR PATTERN". p.30. I think this may have added to my confusion. Thank you so much for bringing this up, and for the clarification. It really is good to be looking into these Indian units and weaponry here, and to get back to studies from quite a long time ago. Really glad you're here on this, and look forward to more talks!

23rd November 2017, 05:26 PM	#38
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Likhari could you please show a close up of the yelman shown in post #32, and of the whole sword if possible?