Need Help to Identify Pamor and Tangguh - Page 2

ivoke · 2nd January 2012, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Of course... "tricks (IMO) are: patiente, balance and TRY TO INCREASE THE BEARING SURFACE OF THE BLADE.

-use a 3 to 9 luk keris
-use a rough underground (karpet)
-position the point of the keris at 45 degrees to the neck of the sarong
-make the hulu face outwards
-make sure the tip toutches the sarong.

i can stand up most of my keris with these guidelines....the others are to heavy and the sarong wont stay put.

ivo

A. G. Maisey · 2nd January 2012, 10:05 PM

What I will now write is not meant to be in any way critical of anybody, and I do acknowledge that the game of balancing a keris on its point is widespread.

I first heard about a keris "standing by itself" perhaps 50 years ago. The story I heard was about a particular keris which did raise itself from a horizontal position, and stand on its point by itself.

I heard similar stories about keris "standing by itself" over the period through to the 1980's. During the 1980's the meaning of a keris "standing by itself" seemed to undergo a change from being a magical thing that a keris could accomplish unaided, or perhaps with the assistance of prayer and meditation of a human intermediary, to being a parlour trick that involved the assistance of a person and various props, such as the support of the top of the scabbard, or the use of weathered wood or a similar rough surface to stand it on.

Instead of being a demonstration of the power of the keris, or perhaps the spiritual power of a person, it became a game for amusement. A game that was indulged in by many, if not most keris collectors in Jawa, and then this game spread to western collectors.

Since at least the 14th century the keris has been the symbol of masculinity in Javanese society.

In traditional Javanese society the keris is accorded an equal degree of respect as would be the custodian of the keris. I can clearly recall many, many years ago when I was about to step over a keris that had been placed on the floor. A very distinguished Javanese gentleman pushed me off balance so that I fell and thus did not step over the keris. He apologized and explained to me that to step over the keris was the ultimate insult to not only the custodian of the keris, but to all those who had been its custodian previously, and also to its maker, and that such an action could have had very unfortunate consequences for me if he had not stopped me.

It is more than clear that the keris is something which should be treated with the same degree of respect that one would extend to one's fellow man.

However, in a situation where the keris has become merely an object for accumulation, it is equally clear that those who simply accumulate the keris, fail to extend to the keris the respect which is due to a cultural icon that in its culture of origin was representative of its custodian.

Apart from the question of respect , there is another matter that one should consider when playing the keris-balancing game, and that is the protection of wealth. There is a risk that if a keris falls it may damage the keris itself, or its hilt, of some other thing that it may strike. To my mind, this is a very good reason not to play at keris balancing, even if one has no desire to treat a keris with respect.

A keris is not a toy.

It is a cultural icon that has the status of being the symbol of a man, or as is found in an inscription from Candi Sukuh, as translated by Martha Muusses :-

"--- the sign of masculinity is the essence of the world."

I do acknowledge that for the simple collector the keris is no more than a rather odd looking dagger type thing, that carries some sort of attraction because of its odd shape, its artistic construction, or perhaps the poorly understood magical stories associated with it.

However, if one is to progress from being just an accumulator of toys to being a serious student of perhaps the most potent icon of any culture, then a good place to start might be by ceasing to play with the keris for which one has accepted responsibility, and move towards treating these keris with just a little respect.

PenangsangII · 3rd January 2012, 01:47 AM

Very well said Alan, and I cant agree more. Treating keris with respect also means not to treat it as if its a "circus act" to the amusement of audience.

David · 3rd January 2012, 05:29 AM

I completely agree...

ivoke · 3rd January 2012, 08:47 AM

in my case, i make a difference,

- the ones i bought "from the bay"...i tend to treat them with less respect as i should

-the ones i was given by friends and family: they are treated as they should be

-the ones that are in the family home in Bali: no comment on those.

David · 3rd January 2012, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivoke

in my case, i make a difference,

- the ones i bought "from the bay"...i tend to treat them with less respect as i should

-the ones i was given by friends and family: they are treated as they should be

-the ones that are in the family home in Bali: no comment on those.

It is nice that you feel able to make this distinction Ivo. But even keris bought on eBay come from a place of history and IMHO are to be treated with respect. In my case i believe in returning these items to that place of respect because without our active appreciation and honoring of these once revered objects they are indeed nothing more than metal and wood.
I do, of course, understand that certain keris will always hold a nearer and dearer place in one's heart based on the source and personal family history and connection that the keris creates.

PenangsangII · 4th January 2012, 09:22 AM

2 kerises i bought from e-bay turned out to be genuinely old and bertuah (I shall not and will not talk about this) when they were appraised by somebody who had vast experience in keris (the guy lived with his empu father). The 2 kerises currently are my pusakas.

Jean · 4th January 2012, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

2 kerises i bought from e-bay turned out to be genuinely old and bertuah (I shall not and will not talk about this) when they were appraised by somebody who had vast experience in keris (the guy lived with his empu father). The 2 kerises currently are my pusakas.

Hello PenangsangII,
Could you share some pictures with us?

Regards

ivoke · 4th January 2012, 12:48 PM

think i need to clarify "i tend to treat them with less respect as i should"

-what i sometimes buy from ebay, mostly cheap new wilah's, cause i like the form and i like them polished. They stay in my desk until i find a gerantim or a tapukan. Then they go point up in a little ploncon, to be admired. I do feel that a kris bought is not the same as a keris given. I do not repair, polish or stain them.....i must admit i put them on their point sometimes.

-the keris that were given to me are in a big ploncon, get there daily dose of dupa and go to the odalan Tumpek Landep where they are washed by a Pemanku (yes there is a balinese temple here, pretty one to)

PenangsangII · 5th January 2012, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello PenangsangII,
Could you share some pictures with us?

Regards

purchases of keris on ebay is a gamble actually..... out of 10 kerises, we may be lucky once or twice....

since those are already my pusaka (after undergoing tangguh and tayuh process for compatibility with my character / profession), there would be no chance of me uploading them. Sorry Jean....

2nd January 2012, 10:05 PM	#32
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	What I will now write is not meant to be in any way critical of anybody, and I do acknowledge that the game of balancing a keris on its point is widespread. I first heard about a keris "standing by itself" perhaps 50 years ago. The story I heard was about a particular keris which did raise itself from a horizontal position, and stand on its point by itself. I heard similar stories about keris "standing by itself" over the period through to the 1980's. During the 1980's the meaning of a keris "standing by itself" seemed to undergo a change from being a magical thing that a keris could accomplish unaided, or perhaps with the assistance of prayer and meditation of a human intermediary, to being a parlour trick that involved the assistance of a person and various props, such as the support of the top of the scabbard, or the use of weathered wood or a similar rough surface to stand it on. Instead of being a demonstration of the power of the keris, or perhaps the spiritual power of a person, it became a game for amusement. A game that was indulged in by many, if not most keris collectors in Jawa, and then this game spread to western collectors. Since at least the 14th century the keris has been the symbol of masculinity in Javanese society. In traditional Javanese society the keris is accorded an equal degree of respect as would be the custodian of the keris. I can clearly recall many, many years ago when I was about to step over a keris that had been placed on the floor. A very distinguished Javanese gentleman pushed me off balance so that I fell and thus did not step over the keris. He apologized and explained to me that to step over the keris was the ultimate insult to not only the custodian of the keris, but to all those who had been its custodian previously, and also to its maker, and that such an action could have had very unfortunate consequences for me if he had not stopped me. It is more than clear that the keris is something which should be treated with the same degree of respect that one would extend to one's fellow man. However, in a situation where the keris has become merely an object for accumulation, it is equally clear that those who simply accumulate the keris, fail to extend to the keris the respect which is due to a cultural icon that in its culture of origin was representative of its custodian. Apart from the question of respect , there is another matter that one should consider when playing the keris-balancing game, and that is the protection of wealth. There is a risk that if a keris falls it may damage the keris itself, or its hilt, of some other thing that it may strike. To my mind, this is a very good reason not to play at keris balancing, even if one has no desire to treat a keris with respect. A keris is not a toy. It is a cultural icon that has the status of being the symbol of a man, or as is found in an inscription from Candi Sukuh, as translated by Martha Muusses :- "--- the sign of masculinity is the essence of the world." I do acknowledge that for the simple collector the keris is no more than a rather odd looking dagger type thing, that carries some sort of attraction because of its odd shape, its artistic construction, or perhaps the poorly understood magical stories associated with it. However, if one is to progress from being just an accumulator of toys to being a serious student of perhaps the most potent icon of any culture, then a good place to start might be by ceasing to play with the keris for which one has accepted responsibility, and move towards treating these keris with just a little respect.

3rd January 2012, 01:47 AM	#33
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Very well said Alan, and I cant agree more. Treating keris with respect also means not to treat it as if its a "circus act" to the amusement of audience.

3rd January 2012, 05:29 AM	#34
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	I completely agree...

3rd January 2012, 08:47 AM	#35
ivoke Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 20	in my case, i make a difference, - the ones i bought "from the bay"...i tend to treat them with less respect as i should -the ones i was given by friends and family: they are treated as they should be -the ones that are in the family home in Bali: no comment on those.

4th January 2012, 09:22 AM	#37
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	2 kerises i bought from e-bay turned out to be genuinely old and bertuah (I shall not and will not talk about this) when they were appraised by somebody who had vast experience in keris (the guy lived with his empu father). The 2 kerises currently are my pusakas.

4th January 2012, 12:48 PM	#39
ivoke Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 20	think i need to clarify "i tend to treat them with less respect as i should" -what i sometimes buy from ebay, mostly cheap new wilah's, cause i like the form and i like them polished. They stay in my desk until i find a gerantim or a tapukan. Then they go point up in a little ploncon, to be admired. I do feel that a kris bought is not the same as a keris given. I do not repair, polish or stain them.....i must admit i put them on their point sometimes. -the keris that were given to me are in a big ploncon, get there daily dose of dupa and go to the odalan Tumpek Landep where they are washed by a Pemanku (yes there is a balinese temple here, pretty one to)