Anglo-Indian army swords

[mrcjgscott]

Here are some images of the 1796 style officers sword I mentioned to Jim on the tulwar thread. This is one of my personal favourites, and it survived the cull of my collection, and several tempting offers from fellow enthusiasts!

Apologies for the photo quality, these are around 10 years old!

[Shakethetrees]

Great looking saber!

It appears to have a bone grip, right?

[sirupate]

Lovely sword Chris, but would this be classified as a 1796 type? I'd be very interested to hear what the other experts opinions are.

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

It appears to have a bone grip, right?

I believe so Shakethetrees, although I could not tell you from which animal it came.

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by sirupate

Lovely sword Chris, but would this be classified as a 1796 type? I'd be very interested to hear what the other experts opinions are.

Thank you Simon.

I actually said "1796 style" (not that it really matters)

The hilt is certainly based on that design, possibly for an officer of the East India Company.

I am always happy to hear other opinions.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

Thank you Simon.

I actually said "1796 style" (not that it really matters)

The hilt is certainly based on that design, possibly for an officer of the East India Company.

I am always happy to hear other opinions.

Chris, this is a beautiful sword, and what appears to be a Solingen blade, probably end of 18th to c. 1815. The M1796 light cavalry stirrup hilts were among the most widely varied of the British 'regulation' patterns. This was due to this of course being the first 'officially' recognized pattern date, and at this time there were a good number of makers all responding to orders from officers, often with their own design and innovations.

I recall when I first collected British cavalry patterns many years ago, one challenging field was variations of the M1796 lt cavalry sabre for officers. The troopers swords were pretty standard, but officers had many nuanced differences in the backstrap, langets, and clearly the grips....often there were variations in blades as well.

It seems I have seen this langet style somewhere, and it very well may have bee an EIC selection. If I can find some of the data I will add it here, there was some very obscure and brief articles back in the 70s it seems.
It is unfortunate that EIC swords were never marked, nor it seems usually inscribed (none I have seen personally at least).

I agree the grip does seem bone but hard to say, these officers had access to good ivory work in the EIC regions so that must be considered.

[mrcjgscott]

Hello Jim,

Many thanks indeed for chiming in on this one.

I have always suspected, as have most of the people who have handled this particular sword, that the blade was of Indian manufacture.

Whilst the blade itself is sound and still holding a wicked edge, the finish, especially around the fullers, isn't really up to the standard I have come to expect from a Solingen product of that era.

Is there any particular indication that makes you think it is Solingen rather than Indian? Obviously their output during this period was prodigious (one only has to consider the amount of "J.J. Runkell" examples encountered) but I had no idea that they might be importing blades into India also.

It is always good to revaluate things from time to time, especially those things which you have had so long that you have rather written them off as "knowing it all"! So I thank you for making me think twice about this old friend of mine.

As you say, the dearth of markings on early EIC blades is something of a handicap, and does leave interpretation up to combinations of other features. But perhaps that is also part of the fun?

I shall take some better images of the hilt, then perhaps, we might be able to tie that down slightly better!

All the best,

Chris

[sirupate]

That kind of fullering/groves reminded me of one of Drabya Shah's weapons circa 1559

[sirupate]

This is quite a good little PDF on Officers 1796 LCS

[kronckew]

ref: post 31 above.

now i know what my affy short sword with the solingen trade blade looked like before it was captured and turned into a shorty.

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by sirupate

That kind of fullering/groves reminded me of one of Drabya Shah's weapons circa 1559

That is a very impressive piece. I presume that it is held in Nepal?

Originally Posted by sirupate

This is quite a good little PDF on Officers 1796 LCS

Although I cannot see the name of the articles author, it would appear to be written by Richard Dellar?

Richard is probably the leading scholar working on British cavalry swords at the moment. I can thoroughly recommend his latest book:

“The British Cavalry Sword 1788 – 1912, Some New Perspectives”

Kind regards,

Chris

[sirupate]

Hi Chris, it is in the National Museum, the curator (Bhess) took me around, thanks for the heads up on the book, I'll definitely give it a shout, all the best Simon

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Chris,
My note of that blade being Solingen was very much 'off the cuff' as these triple fuller type types are characteristic of the 'trade' blades that were produced there from 18th century and well through the 19th (much like the one Kronckew has shown in the example he entered here). However, you are quite right, the blade could well be an Indian copy.
It does not seem to me that the Indian smiths were making these kinds of copied blades quite as early as this type sword as suggested by the hilt.

Actually Solingen blades were quite regularly into India, particularly in the western regions via Malabar and Mahrattas, and of course via many of the EIC key regions and presidencies via the flow of these into England. In England, the constant influx of German blades remained a bit of a standard.

Thank you for noting the superb work by Richard Dellar, "The British Cavalry Sword 1788-1912", in my opinion one of the most significant works on regulation cavalry swords to date. It delves into the history of many of these well known forms through research and study including those who actually used them, rather the exact way I deeply enjoy studying these weapons whenever possible.

Simon thank you for adding the PDF and example of the tulwar with profoundly heavy blade, one we often regard as the much debated 'tegha'.

Chris, I also heartily agree with your note on some swords we have had for so long we think their tales are finished, Like you say, those old swords from more years ago I collected were indeed my friends, and very much my guides into exciting forays into history!!
Now, many years later, and with a 'bit' more knowledge, it is amazing how much more they have to share with me.
We NEVER know it all, the cases are never closed, and the search remains never ending. It is the pure joy and adventure of collecting and studying arms.

I still have not found the examples of these type langets, nor the general look of that M1796 light cav stirrup hilt. I feel pretty confident that its form corresponds to those which might have been selected by EIC officers though. It seems to resemble some of those I recall which were to particular cavalry regiments, remembering that officers swords were private purchase just as were EIC types.

All best,
Jim

[sirupate]

Thanks for the added info Jim, what does 'tegha' mean and refer to? all the best Simon

[sirupate]

Here is the rest of Drabya Shah's weapons circa 1559, the Tulwar is on the top left

[Jim McDougall]

The word 'tegha' seems to be another of the dialectic Indian terms used for a sword type, in this case, I believe (by recollection) to refer to a very heavy blade and slightly curved sword. I think it is noted in "The Indian Sword" (Rawson, 1967) as well as Pant (Lahore, 1980, "Indian Arms andArmour")
Thank you for the images of this grouping, impressive!
Refresh my memory please on Drabya Shah, where was he situated?

[sirupate]

Hi Jim, thanks for the info on Tegha, Drabya Shah was the first of the Shah's of Gorkha in Nepal, when Drabya Shah killed Khadka Raja in personnel combat, there is a nick in the beam of ceiling from Drabya Shah's killing cut on Khadka Raja's head which split it in two in the Palace in Gorkha, which Lt. Col. Cross was able to see, as he was mistaken for a Brahmin and allowed in.
It is quite a climb just over 3000 feet, which I did in 2000, but worth it for the view alone, and good prep for the trekking!

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Simon, I thought the name was familiar from some of the info John Powell used to share, seems like eons ago.

[Sancar]

This is a very interesting and informative topic. Thank you all

While reading earlier posts, this picture from 1912 Wilkinson catalogue, posted by mrcjgscott, cought my attention. The second saber from the left is very different from all the rest, with an unusual hilt for a British-made and western influenced military sword; yet it does not look like a tulwar either. It looks almost like an Ethiopian gurade. My question is simply what is this, why is it different and are there any surviving examples? Is it a British attempt to (poorly)imitate a tulwar hilt or something else?

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent observation Sancar!
Actually that is indeed an Ethiopian shotel with the European type blade, if I am correct on terminology. I have understood the 'gurade' as typically the stirrup hilt military style sabres for Ethiopia (usually German made).
In the early 20th century, Wilkinson Sword Co. had been supplying then Abyssinia with swords for a time, and these catalogs listed their wares.

Other similar pages illustrate Ethiopian blade variations for the traditional rhino horn 'shotel' which included both the deeply curved sickle type as well as the shallow curve military style. Both were used into the 1930s.

It is curious how this became mixed in with the Indian grouping, but in these times it does not seem uncommon for such interpolation in many references and in this case catalogs.

I once had a pair of British made tulwars (by Mole, contracted to Wilkinson) which had cast brass Indo-Persian hilts. These were quite true to form, and the British were quite attuned to such details. Native cavalry during the Raj were permitted to choose their favored weapons it would seem, as there are variations by regiment and some had traditional tulwars. Since the term tulwar was of course a general term for sword, and equally used to refer to the European style sabres in these regiments, it is unclear exactly what the actual form was.

[Jens Nordlunde]

In Robert Elgood's new book Arms and Armour ar the Jaipur Court, he writes as follow on page 73.
"A Jaipur copy of en English Officer's sabre with basket hilt and pierced silver and silver gilt scabbard in similar floral style is stated to have been made for a captain Man Singh of Jaipur".
A note says that it was shown in Hendley's Memorials og the Jeypore Exhibibition 1883, plate XLIX (attached).
In the text to the plate Hendley writes.
"1. Sword. Talwar. Basket hilt. 2. Scabbard of no 1. Pierced floral pattern. Silver and gold chasing. Colst of 1. and 2. 200 rs.
Made at Jeypore for Captain Man Singh."

[sirupate]

Great observation Sancar, and thanks for the clarification Jim, I didn't realise Mole was contracted to Wilkinson for some swords.

[sirupate]

What a beauty Jens

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

In Robert Elgood's new book Arms and Armour ar the Jaipur Court, he writes as follow on page 73.
"A Jaipur copy of en English Officer's sabre with basket hilt and pierced silver and silver gilt scabbard in similar floral style is stated to have been made for a captain Man Singh of Jaipur".
A note says that it was shown in Hendley's Memorials og the Jeypore Exhibibition 1883, plate XLIX (attached).
In the text to the plate Hendley writes.
"1. Sword. Talwar. Basket hilt. 2. Scabbard of no 1. Pierced floral pattern. Silver and gold chasing. Colst of 1. and 2. 200 rs.
Made at Jeypore for Captain Man Singh."

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Chris, I also heartily agree with your note on some swords we have had for so long we think their tales are finished, Like you say, those old swords from more years ago I collected were indeed my friends, and very much my guides into exciting forays into history!!
Now, many years later, and with a 'bit' more knowledge, it is amazing how much more they have to share with me.
We NEVER know it all, the cases are never closed, and the search remains never ending. It is the pure joy and adventure of collecting and studying arms.

All best,
Jim

Thank you for the clarification on the importation of German blades into India Jim. It seems NOTHING should be taken for granted with arms and armour!

As you say, it is always refreshing when an old piece in your collection can yield new information, even when you think all the threads have been unravelled...

I know researchers who do occasionally make grandiose statements about new discoveries, only to find, when digging a little deeper, that such proclamations are not all they are cracked up to be.

The field of study doesn't matter, I am sure such things happen across the spectrum when undertaking research. We must stick to the facts, and judge each case on its own merits. As you say, there is always more information to be gleaned.

Originally Posted by sirupate

I didn't realise Mole was contracted to Wilkinson for some swords.

Wilkinson and Mole had a long history of cooperation, Mole running a very close second to Wilkinson until Wilkinson finally bought them out in 1920.

[mrcjgscott]

Many thanks for posting that example Jens. I am very much looking forward to Elgood's forthcoming work.

Here are two more Indian Infantry swords with British influenced hilts, similar to the one posted by A.alnakkas earlier in the thread.

Both have subtle differences, but both carry an European style coat of arms in the central guard cartouche. I presume typical of the many Indian states, although I have no idea to which these swords belonged.

Note the horn grip and tulwar style scabbard on the bottom example.

[RSWORD]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

this one was in my collection. Blade and scabbard are wootz but dont think its Indian?

Lofty,

Yours is Persian and early 20th century.

[Silver John]

Hi Chris,

I don't know if it'll be any help identifying where the sword came from, but I believe the six characters on the guard in the top picture are; Ri Ya S Ta Ha Ta(long a).

I'm not sure on the fifth character 'Ha', as it's a little blurred, but the others are a pretty good match to my eye.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Chris,
I think I see two numbers on your hilt, the number '1' in the middle of the text, and '8' at the end of the text, but what the text inbetween says I don't know.

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Chris,
I think I see two numbers on your hilt, the number '1' in the middle of the text, and '8' at the end of the text, but what the text inbetween says I don't know.

Thank you Jens,

That is certainly more than I knew when I woke up this morning! I would imagine they are either a unit designation or possibly a rack number (perhaps both)

Kind regards,

Chris

[Silver John]

Hi Chris & Jens,

I thought I'd posted up a crude translation last night, but it's either still waiting for a Mods approval or it's been lost in the ether, so I'll try again.

I don't know if it'll be any help in identifying the origins, but the six characters on the top picture look like: Ri Ya S Ta Ha Taa.

Not sure about the 5th character as it's a bit blurred.

On the other example. The numbers are 1 and 4. The two characters look like Ga and Ja though there are additional marks on them (vowel diacritics? that I don't recognise)