MANDAU HANDLE - Page 2

David · 27th March 2007, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

An good book is from A.R. Hein Malerei un technische künste bei den Dayaks.
or Indonesische schwertgriffe . also from Hein
Ben

Any you would recommend in English?

Dajak · 27th March 2007, 05:08 AM

The pagan tribes off Borneo Hose and mcdougall

The natives of Sarawak and british north Borneo henry ling Roth

Ben

David · 27th March 2007, 05:09 AM

Thanks Ben.

asomotif · 27th March 2007, 01:37 PM

For the sake of conversation enclosed pictures of a very large hilt

Old or New ? Tourist or not tourist ?

David · 27th March 2007, 03:18 PM

Well i couldn't tell you the age of this hilt, though it does appear that the point on the antler has been intentionally darkened. For me whether it is old or new is not nearly as important as whether it is authenic and beautiful and it does appear (to my novice eyes) to be a true and well executed expression of a Dayak artform and well worth collecting. Still, it is important for us as collectors to understand exactly what we are collecting. If it is new and presented for sale as an old piece that is a problem. I am sure there are many collectors who are quite willing to add newly crafted pieces to their collections, especially if it means keeping what would otherwise be a dying artform alive. We deal with the same issues in the keris world, perhaps on an even larger scale. There are absolutely exquisite modern works of the keris artform being produced today, though many dealers seem to feel that they must present them as old pieces in order to sell them (or get more money for them). But there is a market for well made new keris and some collectors make it their specialty.

Maurice · 27th March 2007, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Still, it is important for us as collectors to understand exactly what we are collecting. If it is new and presented for sale as an old piece that is a problem. I am sure there are many collectors who are quite willing to add newly crafted pieces to their collections, especially if it means keeping what would otherwise be a dying artform alive. .

I do agree with this. There are people who like it for the age and authentic items.
There are also people who like the "style" weather it is old or new.
For me I wood say (although I have newly made indonesian weapons in my collection in generally) I like the old mandaus.
This because they were made by the dayaks while they had very little of no influences of outside (modern) society.

Dajak · 27th March 2007, 04:25 PM

Hi Willem this is nice carving but not the old style

Ben

asomotif · 28th March 2007, 05:28 PM

One more for the sake of conversation.

Old or new ? tourist or non tourist ?

Best regards,
Willem

David · 28th March 2007, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

One more for the sake of conversation.
Old or new ? tourist or non tourist ?

Willem, these terms are meaningless unless defined. Everyone has a different impression as to what is truly old. I'm almost 50yrs. young myself, but some might consider that old.

"Tourist" is a term that get's thrown around alot. I usually try to avoid it if something is made in an authentic manner from within the indigenous populous. Many modern day keris are exquisitely made in a tradtional manner, but then sold directly to western collectors. I do not consider these to be "tourist" keris even though they never served an ethnographic function. I do not know if mandau are made in a similar manner for a similar market, but perhaps you can see what i am getting at.

This last picture is unfortunately out of focus which only makes assessment even more difficult. To my eyes it appears to be an authentic enthnographic artifact. I am not familar enough with Dayak styles to judge it's age stylisticly, but even in the bad photo it at least appears to have some wear and age. It would be interesting to see the blade it is connected to.

Dajak · 28th March 2007, 11:15 PM

Hi Willem it is new style

Tourist if it is made for not using and decoration

Ben

asomotif · 29th March 2007, 01:09 PM

Dear David,

Fully agree that these terms need some deifinition.
Although Ben had no problem interpeting these terms

He has even his own terms : new style / old style.

In Dajak art I think that 'old style' is a style where the motifs are strongly anthropomorphic. like leeches and elbows and arm sticking out of the design.

The big hilt I posted has very clear figures, the hornbills are clearly hornbills, and the dragons are clearly dragons. No mistake about that.
That is also what I feel should be considere 'new style'

Anyway , the last hilt I posted is a bit of a mystery to me.
It does not seem very old, but take a look at the blade...

Dajak · 29th March 2007, 04:33 PM

Hi Willem the blade is an old one it is always difficult from a pic to see the patina but dont forget handle can be broken and replaced but the style is also
new style for me is that after 1940 1950 so yours handle could be 50 60 years old but the blade is older .

scabbard also newer than the blade it looks like north borneo style

Regards Ben

Maurice · 30th March 2007, 12:16 AM

Hi I just got this mandauhandle.
It is made of some kind of horn.
It was a gift and just handed over to me.
I had never seen them made of horn.
Maybe also a good topic in this thread.

PS. the pictures are not all fully sharp.

VANDOO · 30th March 2007, 02:31 AM

FROM WHAT I COULD LEARN FROM DEALERS ON MY TRIP TO BORNEO THEY SOMETIMES MAKE TRIPS UP THE RIVERS TO THE DAYAK COMUNITYS AND TRADE OR BUY ARTEFACTS DIRECTLY FROM THE LOCALS. THEY ALSO BUY FROM TRADERS WHO REGULARLY MAKE TRIPS THRU MALYSIAN AND INDONESIAN BORNEO. I AM SURE THERE ARE SOME LOCALLY MADE BY ARTISTS IN THE CITYS AND THERE MAY BE SOME ITEMS IMPORTED FROM OTHER AREAS OF MALAYSIA AND INDONESIA. THERE WERE LOTS OF SHOPS IN KUCHING AND QUITE A VARIETY AND RANGE OF SWORDS, MASKS, SHIELDS AND SPEARS.

FROM WHAT I SAW IN THE SHOPS THERE ARE SEVERAL CLASSIFICATIONS OF SWORDS.
1. THE GOOD OLD ONES OVER 100 YEARS OLD WHICH ARE OFTEN IN THE SHOP OWNERS PRIVATE COLLECTIONS, NOT MANY FOR SALE.
2. THOSE WHICH ARE 100 YEARS OR LESS OLD THAT ARE MADE IN A TRADITIONAL MANNER AND ARE GOOD ENOUGH TO ACTUALLY USE AS INTENDED . (TO CHOP BRUSH AND AS A TOOL THESE DAYS)
3. THOSE 100 YEARS OR LESS THAT HAVE TRADITIONAL DESIGNS BUT BLADES TOO POOR TO BE VERY GOOD JUNGLE KNIVES. (SOME OF THESE ARE FOR CEREMONYS OR PRESENTATION ON SPECIAL OCCASIONS OR TO PEOPLE WHO PREFORM A GOOD SERVICE TO THE TRIBE OR INDIVIDUAL.)
4. THOSE 50 YEARS OR LESS THAT HAVE NON TRADITIONAL DESIGNS SOME WITH FUNCTIONAL BLADES AND SOME DECORATIVE ONLY. ( SOME NON TRADITIONAL DESIGNS I HAVE SEEN ARE MERMAIDS OR CHINESE DRAGONS)
5. THOSE MADE WITH VERY POOR BLADES, POOR CARVINGS PAINTED AND HUNG WITH BEADS,HAIR, SHELLS, BONES AND TEETH I THINK THEY MAY COME FROM KALIMANTAN. I HAVE ALSO SEEN SMALL SHIELDS, KERIS AND SPEARS WITH PARMOR BLADES WITH THIS SAME TYPE OF DESIGN. THESE ARE VERY BARBARIC LOOKING BUT I DON'T THINK THEY WERE EVER THE TRADITIONAL STYLE OF ANY DAYAK GROUP, BUT I COULD BE WRONG

6. WITHIN THESE GROUPS THERE ARE THOSE THAT HAVE SEEN USE AND HAVE BEEN PERSONALIZED BY THE OWNER. SOME OF THESE ARE FANCY AND SOME QUITE PLAIN. SOME HAVE BEEN PAINTED WITH MODERN PAINTS SOME WITH NATURAL DYES OR MORE PRIMATIVE NATURAL PAINTS. SOME HAVE HAD HUNTING TROPHYS ATTACHED OR TAILSMEN ATTACHED.
7. THOSE WITH A OLDER BLADE , NEWER HANDLE AND SCABBARD THOSE WITH NEWER BLADES AND OLDER HANDLES ATTACHED TAILSMEN ECT. DONE AT A SHOP RATHER THAN BY AN INDIVIDUAL.
8 THOSE THAT WERE NOT MADE IN AND HAVE NEVER BEEN TO BORNEO. ( OF THIS I HAVE NO PROOF BUT CONSIDERING TODAYS PRICES AND THE ARTISTIC ABILITY AND BUSINESS SENSE OF SEVERAL OTHER AREAS I CONSIDER IT LIKELY.)

KUCHING (SARAWAK) HAD THE MOST OF THESE TYPES OF ARTEFACTS FOR SALE, THERE WERE SOME SHOPS IN SABAH BUT NOT AS MANY AS IN KUCHING. I DID NOT GET TO KALIMANTAN BUT AM SURE THERE IS PROBABLY A CITY THERE LIKE KUCHING WHICH HAS LOTS OF SHOPS AND ITEMS ALSO.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH BUYING A MORE RECENT ITEM IF IT IS SOLD AS RECENT, THE WORKMANSHIP IS GOOD, TRADITIONAL DESIGNS AND MATERIALS ARE USED AND IT IS MADE BY THE PROPER SOCIETY. FOR INSTANCE I WOULD PREFER TO BUY A CHEYENNE WAR CLUB MADE BY A CHEYENNE NOT BY AN IRISHMAN BECAUSE NO MATTER HOW MUCH IT LOOKED LIKE A CHEYENNE CLUB I WOULD KNOW THE ONE MADE BY THE IRISHMAN HAD TO BE A SHILLELAGH

ariel · 30th March 2007, 04:34 AM

What about this one? My only Mandau...

asomotif · 30th March 2007, 09:54 AM

Hello Ariel,

Very nice old mandau. Lovely handle with lots of patina.
Would like to bump into that quality mandaus any day.

Maurice · 30th March 2007, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Very nice old mandau. Lovely handle with lots of patina.
Would like to bump into that quality mandaus any day.

I do agree with you completely Willem.

paolo · 30th March 2007, 02:49 PM

I'm proud of my mandau !!!
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=361
Paolo

ariel · 30th March 2007, 10:53 PM

Hey, guys, if you like my mandau so much, you know who to contact if you have an unwanted Caucasian, Turkish, Arabian or Central Asian sword

27th March 2007, 01:37 PM	#34
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	For the sake of conversation enclosed pictures of a very large hilt Old or New ? Tourist or not tourist ? Attached Images

28th March 2007, 05:28 PM	#38
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	One more for the sake of conversation. One more for the sake of conversation. Old or new ? tourist or non tourist ? Best regards, Willem Attached Images

29th March 2007, 01:09 PM	#41
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Dear David, Fully agree that these terms need some deifinition. Although Ben had no problem interpeting these terms He has even his own terms : new style / old style. In Dajak art I think that 'old style' is a style where the motifs are strongly anthropomorphic. like leeches and elbows and arm sticking out of the design. The big hilt I posted has very clear figures, the hornbills are clearly hornbills, and the dragons are clearly dragons. No mistake about that. That is also what I feel should be considere 'new style' Anyway , the last hilt I posted is a bit of a mystery to me. It does not seem very old, but take a look at the blade... Attached Images

30th March 2007, 12:16 AM	#43
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,346	horn mandau handle Hi I just got this mandauhandle. It is made of some kind of horn. It was a gift and just handed over to me. I had never seen them made of horn. Maybe also a good topic in this thread. PS. the pictures are not all fully sharp. Attached Images

30th March 2007, 04:34 AM	#45
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What about this one? My only Mandau... Attached Images

27th March 2007, 05:08 AM	#32
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	The pagan tribes off Borneo Hose and mcdougall The natives of Sarawak and british north Borneo henry ling Roth Ben

27th March 2007, 05:09 AM	#33
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Thanks Ben.

27th March 2007, 03:18 PM	#35
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Well i couldn't tell you the age of this hilt, though it does appear that the point on the antler has been intentionally darkened. For me whether it is old or new is not nearly as important as whether it is authenic and beautiful and it does appear (to my novice eyes) to be a true and well executed expression of a Dayak artform and well worth collecting. Still, it is important for us as collectors to understand exactly what we are collecting. If it is new and presented for sale as an old piece that is a problem. I am sure there are many collectors who are quite willing to add newly crafted pieces to their collections, especially if it means keeping what would otherwise be a dying artform alive. We deal with the same issues in the keris world, perhaps on an even larger scale. There are absolutely exquisite modern works of the keris artform being produced today, though many dealers seem to feel that they must present them as old pieces in order to sell them (or get more money for them). But there is a market for well made new keris and some collectors make it their specialty.

27th March 2007, 04:25 PM	#37
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Willem this is nice carving but not the old style Ben

28th March 2007, 11:15 PM	#40
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Willem it is new style Tourist if it is made for not using and decoration Ben

29th March 2007, 04:33 PM	#42
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Willem the blade is an old one it is always difficult from a pic to see the patina but dont forget handle can be broken and replaced but the style is also new style for me is that after 1940 1950 so yours handle could be 50 60 years old but the blade is older . scabbard also newer than the blade it looks like north borneo style Regards Ben

30th March 2007, 02:31 AM	#44
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	FROM WHAT I COULD LEARN FROM DEALERS ON MY TRIP TO BORNEO THEY SOMETIMES MAKE TRIPS UP THE RIVERS TO THE DAYAK COMUNITYS AND TRADE OR BUY ARTEFACTS DIRECTLY FROM THE LOCALS. THEY ALSO BUY FROM TRADERS WHO REGULARLY MAKE TRIPS THRU MALYSIAN AND INDONESIAN BORNEO. I AM SURE THERE ARE SOME LOCALLY MADE BY ARTISTS IN THE CITYS AND THERE MAY BE SOME ITEMS IMPORTED FROM OTHER AREAS OF MALAYSIA AND INDONESIA. THERE WERE LOTS OF SHOPS IN KUCHING AND QUITE A VARIETY AND RANGE OF SWORDS, MASKS, SHIELDS AND SPEARS. FROM WHAT I SAW IN THE SHOPS THERE ARE SEVERAL CLASSIFICATIONS OF SWORDS. 1. THE GOOD OLD ONES OVER 100 YEARS OLD WHICH ARE OFTEN IN THE SHOP OWNERS PRIVATE COLLECTIONS, NOT MANY FOR SALE. 2. THOSE WHICH ARE 100 YEARS OR LESS OLD THAT ARE MADE IN A TRADITIONAL MANNER AND ARE GOOD ENOUGH TO ACTUALLY USE AS INTENDED . (TO CHOP BRUSH AND AS A TOOL THESE DAYS) 3. THOSE 100 YEARS OR LESS THAT HAVE TRADITIONAL DESIGNS BUT BLADES TOO POOR TO BE VERY GOOD JUNGLE KNIVES. (SOME OF THESE ARE FOR CEREMONYS OR PRESENTATION ON SPECIAL OCCASIONS OR TO PEOPLE WHO PREFORM A GOOD SERVICE TO THE TRIBE OR INDIVIDUAL.) 4. THOSE 50 YEARS OR LESS THAT HAVE NON TRADITIONAL DESIGNS SOME WITH FUNCTIONAL BLADES AND SOME DECORATIVE ONLY. ( SOME NON TRADITIONAL DESIGNS I HAVE SEEN ARE MERMAIDS OR CHINESE DRAGONS) 5. THOSE MADE WITH VERY POOR BLADES, POOR CARVINGS PAINTED AND HUNG WITH BEADS,HAIR, SHELLS, BONES AND TEETH I THINK THEY MAY COME FROM KALIMANTAN. I HAVE ALSO SEEN SMALL SHIELDS, KERIS AND SPEARS WITH PARMOR BLADES WITH THIS SAME TYPE OF DESIGN. THESE ARE VERY BARBARIC LOOKING BUT I DON'T THINK THEY WERE EVER THE TRADITIONAL STYLE OF ANY DAYAK GROUP, BUT I COULD BE WRONG 6. WITHIN THESE GROUPS THERE ARE THOSE THAT HAVE SEEN USE AND HAVE BEEN PERSONALIZED BY THE OWNER. SOME OF THESE ARE FANCY AND SOME QUITE PLAIN. SOME HAVE BEEN PAINTED WITH MODERN PAINTS SOME WITH NATURAL DYES OR MORE PRIMATIVE NATURAL PAINTS. SOME HAVE HAD HUNTING TROPHYS ATTACHED OR TAILSMEN ATTACHED. 7. THOSE WITH A OLDER BLADE , NEWER HANDLE AND SCABBARD THOSE WITH NEWER BLADES AND OLDER HANDLES ATTACHED TAILSMEN ECT. DONE AT A SHOP RATHER THAN BY AN INDIVIDUAL. 8 THOSE THAT WERE NOT MADE IN AND HAVE NEVER BEEN TO BORNEO. ( OF THIS I HAVE NO PROOF BUT CONSIDERING TODAYS PRICES AND THE ARTISTIC ABILITY AND BUSINESS SENSE OF SEVERAL OTHER AREAS I CONSIDER IT LIKELY.) KUCHING (SARAWAK) HAD THE MOST OF THESE TYPES OF ARTEFACTS FOR SALE, THERE WERE SOME SHOPS IN SABAH BUT NOT AS MANY AS IN KUCHING. I DID NOT GET TO KALIMANTAN BUT AM SURE THERE IS PROBABLY A CITY THERE LIKE KUCHING WHICH HAS LOTS OF SHOPS AND ITEMS ALSO. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH BUYING A MORE RECENT ITEM IF IT IS SOLD AS RECENT, THE WORKMANSHIP IS GOOD, TRADITIONAL DESIGNS AND MATERIALS ARE USED AND IT IS MADE BY THE PROPER SOCIETY. FOR INSTANCE I WOULD PREFER TO BUY A CHEYENNE WAR CLUB MADE BY A CHEYENNE NOT BY AN IRISHMAN BECAUSE NO MATTER HOW MUCH IT LOOKED LIKE A CHEYENNE CLUB I WOULD KNOW THE ONE MADE BY THE IRISHMAN HAD TO BE A SHILLELAGH

30th March 2007, 09:54 AM	#46
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Hello Ariel, Very nice old mandau. Lovely handle with lots of patina. Would like to bump into that quality mandaus any day.

30th March 2007, 02:49 PM	#48
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	I'm proud of my mandau !!! http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=361 Paolo

30th March 2007, 10:53 PM	#49
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Hey, guys, if you like my mandau so much, you know who to contact if you have an unwanted Caucasian, Turkish, Arabian or Central Asian sword