Help with Identification please - Page 2

imas560 · 31st August 2010, 11:08 PM

I read in a couple of posts about heating with a blowtorch but I'll give the candle a go. Also spotted a couple of posts dealing with a hilt that had been glued but I hope it won't come to that.

I am planning on the following process:
1. remove hilt
2. degrease
3. soak in juice
then daily (well as close to daily as possible)
4. scrub with toothbrush
5. re-soak
repeat till blade cleaned
6. lime juice and arsenic (optional depending on obtaining arsenic)
7. oil
8. re-hilt

What is a good indicator that a blade has been sufficiently cleaned to treat with lime and arsenic?
How frequently to change out the juice?
Also posts mention keris oil, where can this be sourced? and what is it's closest readily available equivalent?
Many thanks

Rick · 31st August 2010, 11:47 PM

Light Mineral Oil is what it's called in the US .
Can be scented with a bit cendana (sandlewood) oil .

Pure Sandalwood is nigh impossible to get these days and is very expensive .

A. G. Maisey · 1st September 2010, 01:42 AM

Yes, I have mentioned a couple of times that I use a gas torch, but I have never recommended this for use, because if you're new at this game, it is too difficult to control. A candle or a small kero lamp is never ever going to damage the blade through too much heat.Others may also have mentioned a torch, but maybe they have the experience to gauge the correct amount of heat. Its not a good tool for somebody without experience to use.

Apart from the daily scrubbing with a toothbrush you also need to pick any little bits of hard rust off with a sharp metal tool. A saddler's awl is good, so is an old three sided file ground to a point.

Depending on how rusty the blade is you can also scrub with steel wool and sink cleaner during the cleaning period.

When you consider the blade to be clean, you need to scrub with steel wool and sink cleaner to get it white, before you begin to stain it. If you cannot get arsenic, and you're satisfied with the result out of the pineapple juice, then obviously you don't whiten the blade.If you decide to leave the blade as is out of the juice, you need to ensure that you get every last trace of juice off that blade, dry it immediately and then dry with a hair dryer.Spray with WD40 and allow to stand over night.

You'll easily see when its clean, because there will be no rust left on it. None at all.

You don't need to change the juice. In hot weather it will grow a fungus on top, which stinks and is unsightly, but this can just be lifted off and thrown away. In cool weather it will stay clear of fungus.

As Rick has said, sandalwood oil is not easy to get and is expensive. Sandalwood is the smell of the traditional oil. In Jawa this is added to a coconut oil base. In fact, other oils are also used, and the coconut oil used in Jawa is not necessarily ideal as a base. The best protection will be afforded by a good gun oil. Light machine oil is also OK. If you can find an alternate lifestyle shop/ hippy shop or even a health food store, you'll find that they probably sell essential oils. You may find sandalwood there, or some other acceptable oil such as jasmin or rose, you can mix one of these essential oils with medicinal parrafin, and that will give you an acceptable keris oil.Essential oils are used in aroma therapy, and in Australia you can find an acceptable oil almost anywhere, even in small country towns.You don't need much of the essential oil to give the parrafin a decent smell.

I always wrap a freshly cleaned,stained, oiled blade in plastic. This will give protection against deterioration for a very long time.

BigG · 1st September 2010, 06:20 AM

I used Wahl brand light machine oil. It is odourless and colourless. It is a brand generally associated with hair clippers. To this, I would blend in my own mix of floral scent... i guess this is easier found here in my back of the woods... but essential oils use in aromatherapy.. like Mr Maisey has said, workswell too.

You may consider using a mix of something sweet and floral like jasmine, rose etc and cut it wth a bit of something citrusy.. This is to prevent the overpowering presence of the floral note.

Once you mix these oils they should generally dissolve together... if not just leave it to collect at the base of the container as it will still transmit is fragrance to the rest of the oil. use only the top clear portion when oiling your keris.. hope this wld help...

rgds

PenangsangII · 3rd September 2010, 04:34 AM

to play it safe, in order to remove the hilt that is attached to the pesi using damar/jabung etc, just soak the entire hilt in boiled water.... in less than 3 minutes, normally the hilt can easily be removed.

And to clean the blade safely, just soak it in water (best is pure water coming down from waterfall or spring water...) mix with fresh pineapple cubes (pineapple skin is better) and mengkudu (Morinda Citrifolia). This is traditional method practised by Javanese living in Malaysia.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd September 2010, 04:59 AM

That's playing it safe?

Interesting approach.

PenangsangII · 3rd September 2010, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

That's playing it safe?

Interesting approach.

Playing it safe in the sense that this way the blade meets minimum contact to heat, torch etc.... I know that this way, the hilt could be ruined or damaged, but the main issue is to preserve the keris blade, not the dress....

and in my limited experience, never once I damaged the hilt removed this way..

David · 3rd September 2010, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

to play it safe, in order to remove the hilt that is attached to the pesi using damar/jabung etc, just soak the entire hilt in boiled water.... in less than 3 minutes, normally the hilt can easily be removed.

Wow...that seems really excessive to me. It is pretty sure to do damage to the finish of the hilt i would think. Sure the blade is the most important element, but i see no reason to endanger a nice hilt in this manner. The heat required to loosen a blade is not nearly as dangerous to the blade.

BigG · 3rd September 2010, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Wow...that seems really excessive to me.

Gentlemen, Its all a matter of perspective. The method described by Penangsang is pretty much in used in M'sia & S'pore... I cant speak for Indonesia as I am not certain about the practices ther. But the main objective is to save the blade... & especially the peksi.

As I have writtn elsewhere here, the Malay perspective of the value & the strength of the keris resides in the peksi. The peksi & the blade needs to be protected above all else. On top of that, being in Malaysia and S'pore, getting access to excellent qlty hilts, whether newly made or antique is farmore relatively easier.

Thus, a combination of all this factors wld make the method decribed by Penangsang not seen to excessive at all and in fact to be very apt. So its a matter of context.

Another example is the placement of the hilts. When a hilt is not properly oriented when received & when they are unable to be removed by all other methods... I have known many serious collectors to have made the decision to destroy the hilt by hacking it off in order to save the blade, protect the peksi and ensure that the hilt is placed in the correct orientation rather then leaving it be. Again its a mtter of context. Blade & peksi first... hilts... to many collectors here is secondary...

A. G. Maisey · 3rd September 2010, 09:21 AM

The advice I have already given is based upon this:-

I have in excess of 55 years collecting, buying, selling, making, restoring keris.

Apart from what I have taught myself, I have learnt Javanese methods of restoration from several mranggis, including two who were in my employ for many years. One of these men was the son, and grandson of mranggis.

I have learnt other aspects of keris manufacture and restoration from several blade makers.

I have also made a very large number of damascus and carbon steel blades and was a member of the Australian Knifemakers Guild for a number of years.

The way in which heat can damage a blade is by heating it to a point where the temper will be drawn. The area of the blade that is heated to remove a hilt is almost never heat treated in a keris blade, thus there is no temper to draw.

The heat generated by a candle or a small kerosene lamp is not sufficient to damage a blade in any way at all.It is not possible to raise the temperature of a blade to the point where temper can be drawn, by use of a candle or kerosene lamp.

Hilt to blade can be secured by rust, cloth, hair, damar, jabung, or shellac, or in some cases a modern glue or epoxy resin.

Boiling water may soften jabung if the wax content is sufficiently high, but it will have no effect on rust, damar, shellac or epoxy resin.

Boiling water will cause cloth to expand at approximately the same rate that it causes wood to expand, because of this there is a risk of splitting the wood in the hilt.

That risk of splitting applies in all cases as soon as the hilt enters the boiling water.

If the hilt does not split, depending upon the finish that has been applied to the hilt, it will possibly need refinishing.

In my most humble opinion the practice here related of immersing a complete hilt into boiling water in order to remove it from a blade is most certainly barbaric and verges upon idiocy.

I accept what has been related , that this is common practice in Singapore and Malaysia, and this being the case, it tells me all I need to know about the professionalism and skill of the people who engage in this practice.

Regrettably Big G I must disagree with you that this is a matter of perspective.

It is not.

It is a matter of professional standards.

The dominant professional standard to be applied in the restoration of any keris is to proceed in a way that will cause no damage to the keris. No damage to blade. No damage to hilt. No damage to mendak. No damage to any part of the keris.

The profession involved is the profession of the m'ranggi, and this has had a long and continuous history in Jawa.

I would most sincerely suggest that the people who currently subscribe to the boiling water philosophy would be doing themselves and their clients a very great service by seeking out some instruction from true professionals in this field of keris restoration.

BigG · 3rd September 2010, 09:58 AM

Thank you for the reiteration, yet again, of the vast experience that you have in the field. I accept that not many amongst us here can hope to claim to have the vastness of experience that you do. However mr Maisey, your views, perspective and practices on the matter and its origins are just one of many. The context that you practice and espouse those views is yet again different from our own.

That the views and underlying basis for those views do not match yours is, whether you accept it or not, a matter of fact. That you would denigrate them because it doesnt quite fit in into your own comfort level saddens me. but I do hope that you would be more mindful of using the terms that you have in refering to us in the way that you have.

In the mind of many collectors here, the blade & the Peksi is everything. Thus, the manner that is employed. Not everyone do this, but many do.

There is a rich seam of untapped knowledge in terms of practices that are based on matters of practicality and customs amongs the collectors here that are unknown by many forumers. Many are not motivated to share but some are... What penangsang have done in making us aware of one of the practicalities of the collectors here should be applauded. It may not to the liking and may astound many, but it was shared in the spirit of openness. It is sad that his views have been treated in the way that it has been.

Jussi M. · 3rd September 2010, 11:18 AM

Greetings,

Sorry to jump in like this but I feel compelled to and in the following I´ll explain why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigG

In the mind of many collectors here, the blade & the Peksi is everything. Thus, the manner that is employed. Not everyone do this, but many do.

There is a rich seam of untapped knowledge in terms of practices that are based on matters of practicality and customs amongs the collectors here that are unknown by many forumers. Many are not motivated to share but some are... What penangsang have done in making us aware of one of the practicalities of the collectors here should be applauded. It may not to the liking and may astound many, but it was shared in the spirit of openness.

Yes, it is true that there is variance to methods used to maintain and restore a keris and it´s dress within different areas and groups of people associated with the keris. That is OK, each to his own, and all that. Yes, it is wonderful that knowledge is shared – is that not the very reason for the existence of this forum? Yes, it is true that - and I quote - "In the mind of many collectors here, the blade & the Peksi is everything. Thus, the manner that is employed." That is true also BUT, and this is a big but, all here do not share this view. In fact to many - myself included - the dress is also of utmost importance, sometimes even more so than the actual blade itself regardless of how heretic that may appear to others.

Most people here like myself are ignorant and participate in order to learn - to ask those with more experience what and what not to do in order to not mess things up. Think about the possible consequences that may result if someone ignorant who has bought a keris for it´s dress decides to clean and re-stain it´s blade and decides to follow PenangsangII´s advise:

(emphasis added)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

to play it safe, in order to remove the hilt that is attached to the pesi using damar/jabung etc, just soak the entire hilt in boiled water.... in less than 3 minutes, normally the hilt can easily be removed.

And to clean the blade safely, just soak it in water (best is pure water coming down from waterfall or spring water...) mix with fresh pineapple cubes (pineapple skin is better) and mengkudu (Morinda Citrifolia). This is traditional method practised by Javanese living in Malaysia.

It is clear that the above statement is made with the best of intentions but it stems from a frame in which dress is seen as something disposable. Yet for many collectors dress matters. Thus it is of utmost importance to address the pros and cons when describing these things here as people´s values differ. For someone like me thus the proposed method is not safe but a very likely guarantee to end up in the most saddest of conditions.

One should always remember the audience one is addressing. Little knowledge is dangerous if it is not understood where it stems from and what it´s implications are. Reflected against this background I feel that Mr. Maisey´s commentary on this boiling the hilt-practice within the frame of this international collectors forum was to a point if - pun intended - admittedly a bit pointy. For me personally the dress with all it´s components parts are alike culturally and artistically appreciable as is the actual blade itself. Other peoples mileage may – and does – vary, and that is why these "other people" should always be kept in mind when addressing procedures such as the proposed method of removing the hilt on an international forum such as this.

Thanks,

J.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd September 2010, 12:18 PM

Big G, I have read and understood this most recent post of yours, the one prior to it, and the post of Penangsang.

The comments I have made to date I personally consider to be very restrained,and in no way criticism of an unfair nature, which of course is the meaning of "denigrate". In light of the recommendations made, even though made in good faith, I consider that I have been overly polite and quite delicate in my comments.

Most certainly I have criticised the methods which are apparently employed in Singapore and Malaysia, by those entrusted with the preservation of the creations of their ancestors. However, this criticism is no way unfair. The methods described by Penangsang, and supported by yourself are methods which will cause damage, they are not methods which can be used in full assurance that no damage will result to a hilt.

Perhaps sometimes immersion in boiling water will assist in freeing a hilt from a pesi, but at what cost?

Penangsang has mentioned that he has used boiling water a number of times without damage to the hilt. I would suggest two things, firstly he has been lucky, and secondly that if he followed exactly the process he advised in his post, it is probable that the hilt could have been removed without the application of any kind of heat, but just by the application of a little professional skill.

Not only can these methods not be relied upon not to damage a hilt, but they can most certainly be relied upon to create an increased level of risk of breakage of the pesi where that pesi is heavily rusted and is being retained in the hilt by rust.This risk will be multiplied where the hilt is of ivory, bone or horn. rather than wood. Then of course, we have the tayuman situation, and old tayuman hilts are not low cost disposables.

The judicious use of heat will loosen any pesi , whether it has been retained by rust, jabung or anything else.

Boiling water will not be effective in all cases, but can be relied upon to raise the level of risk of a broken pesi, as well as a split hilt.

If one has no concern as to whether the hilt is damaged, and the pesi is broken, by all means immerse the hilt in boiling water.

However, if one wishes to free the hilt without breaking the pesi and with no damage to the hilt, then one should learn how to use heat to do this.

I most certainly accept that the methods I have recommended are not the only methods, however, they are methods used in Central Jawa by people with a great deal more experience than I have, in some cases by people who can count generations of their forebears as mranggis before them.The methods I have recommended are well tested, and they do work, not only that, but used correctly they do not ever result in damage to any part of the keris.

What I have stated here is not opinion.

It is demonstrable fact.

BigG · 3rd September 2010, 02:51 PM

Firstly let me state that I agree that the dress of the keris is of equal importance to the blade of the keris. I have personally never used the boiling method and have been careful to inform ay craftsmen who would restore pieces that I own to not employ this method. I personally value the asthetics of the dress as much as I do the blade. The pcs that I have shared wth here and would share more in the future, wld attest to this... But what I am stating here is the fact, that this method is employed by many, not all... but many as a means of removing a hilt. And I have given the forumers the rationale of why this method is being employed by many in this particular region...

And that rationale in my opinion is bcos of the inordinate importance that is given by them to the blade as well as the peksi as oppose to the dress, especially the hilt. The other rationale to this is because of the relative ease in which a hilt can be replace here... new or antique... I have endeavoured to inform the forumers here, newbies & veterans alike that there is an alternative but it is chosen as a result of the specific context of the situation found here. That this method is found to be shocking or unacceptable should not detract from the fact that it exist and is being employed. I accept that it is unacceptable to many in the forum... It is also something that would not be resorted to by many here, including myself... but that it exist, and is considered valid by peope for the reasons that I have mentioned should also be made known.

Be critical of this method if you feel needful to by all means... Explain the contextual rationale behind it to make the forumers understand why this may not be something that they should consider, by all means... but surely by any standard of decorum... labelling a member's effort at disclosing what he applies and intend to share in good faith as an act of barbarism & idiocy would be far from what wld be considered as restrained. We may disagree about what is being said, we should endeavour to tamper its impact and we should if we believe that we know better... but we should not maligned these views the way that it has been done here...

As we Malays would say it;
"Orang berbudi kita berbahasa"...
As they are civil so are we courteous. ..

Lets reciprocate ideas and views sounded off in good faith in the manner that it deserves...

David · 3rd September 2010, 04:10 PM

Gentlemen, please allow me to state my views here.
We have here a new collector seeking advice on methods of cleaning and restoration. I think that it is important that we consider when we give advise in such a case that the new and relatively uninformed collector may well try a method when it is suggested to him. I personally would feel remiss if i did not stand up and yell loudly from the hilltop if i were to see someone suggest a methodology which i felt could be dangerous or damaging to any part of a keris. I think that for the most part we all consider the blade to take a prime position of importance when we deal with the keris. However, i also believe that the vast majority of collectors on this forum are also interested in preserving dress, especially antique dress, and most particularly well crafted dress whenever possible. I am also not completely convinced that it is always the Malay's notion that the dress is unimportant compared to the blade. I can't, for instance, see any of our Malay collectors using this boiling water method on their favorite antique keris tajong. Neither am i convinced that well carved antique tajong hilt are at all easy to replace, even for those who live in the region and i might be wrong, but whenever i have seen tajong presented the emphasis of importance always seems to be on the dress, not the blade.
I don't think that anyone is dismissing the actuality of this practice of boiling hilts as one that it commonly done. We are simply remarking on the fact that commonly done or not, it is not a good idea. To present such a method to an impressionable new collect is also not a good idea, especially when methods have already been presented that have been proven to work and not damage any part of the keris.
I am not sure that i would use the words that Mr. Maisey has in describing this practice, however, i would not argue with his viewpoint either. Many things throughout history have been accepted by certain facet of society, but that did not make them necessarily good ideas. If you would allow an admittedly extreme example, it was once considered necessary,right and proper for a woman to throw herself (or be thrown) upon her husbands funeral pyre (sati) in Hindu culture. That it was condoned, that it was a fact, didn't make it a good idea.
I suggest that we proceed with caution here in this discussion. I do not believe it is anyone's intention to dismiss or insult the practices of any person or group of people here so i trust that we can all remain civil and calm. I see nothing wrong with discussing different ideas and method used for anything keris related on this forum, but i also think that it is most important that we make clear the possible dangers that some of these methods might hold, especially for impressionable new collectors seeking the best and lest invasive methods of restoration. Not to do so would be irresponsible

A. G. Maisey · 3rd September 2010, 04:21 PM

Big G, I thank you for your further explanation.

The situation as it applies in Singapore and Malaysia is now much more clear to me. Perhaps if something like this had been written initially you may have been able to avoid taking umbrage at my most civil and restrained comments.

My comments were most certainly critical, and were intended to be.

To offer advice such this to people with little experience or knowledge could result in severe loss for such people.Apparently you concur with this point of view, as you now advise us that you do not subscribe to the boiling water philosophy.

May I suggest that you swallow your bile and re-read my post that has seemingly caused you such offence?

To assist you in this I quote here the words to which you seem to object:-

In my most humble opinion the practice here related of immersing a complete hilt into boiling water in order to remove it from a blade is most certainly barbaric and verges upon idiocy.

Please take note:-

I have given my opinion that the act of immersing a hilt into boiling water is an act that I consider to be barbaric and verging upon idiocy.

I have not said that Penangsang's effort at relating this act was one of barbarism and near idiocy; in fact, I offer Penangsang my sincere thanks for providing me with this information, as it permits me to form an opinion of the level of professionalism that is to be found in respect of keris restoration in Singapore and Malaysia.

However, although I appreciate this invaluable gain in knowledge, I repeat that to offer such advice to the inexperienced is more than a little irresponsible.

There is a very great difference between describing an act as barbaric and verging upon idiocy, and describing the recounting of that act as barbaric and verging upon idiocy.

I'm sure that when you have reread and understood what I have written you will be able to appreciate this difference.

Now, to address your little gem of wisdom, which seems to imply that I may have been discourteous.

Big G, I always endeavor to be as polite as is possible when I write in this forum. In this present exchange I have not varied from this approach. I have restrained myself from saying what I would like to say about this boiling water business, and I have directed my very restrained criticism at the act itself. My remarks in respect of those who engage in this practice have been limited to offering some advice, which, as with all advice, they are free to accept or reject as they see fit:-

I would most sincerely suggest that the people who currently subscribe to the boiling water philosophy would be doing themselves and their clients a very great service by seeking out some instruction from true professionals in this field of keris restoration.

I most earnestly request that you read only the words I have written, rather than to imagine that which I have not written.

In order to demonstrate that I bear you no ill will because of your misrepresentation of my comments, I will terminate my involvement in this exchange at this point. Should you have anything to add, please do so in confidence that I will not respond to any further of your posts in this matter.

BigG · 3rd September 2010, 05:43 PM

Mr Maisey... I fully understand what it is that you had said and the intended manner of its saying...

As a Malay would put it, I truly understand what has been written "yang tersurat" and what is implied behind it "yang tersirat". I end this exchange with you with a gift of a Pantun (Traditional Malay quatrain)...

Tumbuh di rimba si daun palas
Gugur di hutan berbelas-belas
Kata hamba kata beralas
Kata tuan duri berhias

By the woods the leaves a-twining
Green grown their tendrils a-winding
My words... are words a-soothing
Thy own.. barbed and wounding

Rgds..

Alam Shah · 3rd September 2010, 06:13 PM

Dear friends, I live in Singapore and have never used the boiling water treatment. Most of my fellow collectors here, do not subscribe to this treatment, as well, although we are aware of it.

Personally, I value the few old hilts that I have and would prefer to use other techniques of hilt removal to prevent damage to them. Hilts are easily replaced but in the olden days, they are highly prized item, normally made of selected quality materials, with certain attributes to them. From a cultural aspect, it does represents something that if understood, one would value it.

Currently I do have a piece which I have difficulty removing. A Sumatran keris, with what I believe to be a rhino hilt. Any suggestions on what course of action I should take?

David · 3rd September 2010, 07:42 PM

Shahrial, thank you for providing different perspective from the Singapore keris community.
I nice and unusual hilt you have there. I certainly don't think you would want to destroy it for the sake of the blade.

I presume you have already tried applying heat to the blade as has been described in this thread? I know sometimes it takes much persistence an repetition.

Rick · 3rd September 2010, 08:18 PM

The heat also needs some time to penetrate up the pesi and stay there; especially if you are trying to melt/soften a substance .

Yes, I'd say that's Rhino .

A. G. Maisey · 4th September 2010, 01:00 AM

Thank you Shahrial for your further clarification of the place that the technique of boiling a hilt free of the pesi occupies in your part of the world. I can now understand that this is far from being a generally utilised practice, and it seems that perhaps it may be used by only a very few people. It is comforting to know that the practice is not as widespread as it initially appeared to be.

This keris that you have shown a photo of will very likely take an extended period of time before it gives up its hilt. I have encountered several cases where I have needed to heat and reheat over a long time before the hilt finally came free. In all cases the hilt materials were other than wood; one was ivory, a couple were horn, one was probably rhino horn, and one was very similar to the hilt on your keris.

In a couple of these instances, when the hilt finally did come free the pesi was only about as thick as a darning needle, inside the hole in the hilt there were layers of rust. When a pesi is as badly rusted as these were it is very easy to break , so you need to proceed very carefully and do not overdo the twisting action, rather apply very little twisting force, and try to pull the hilt free by gripping the blade with your left hand and pushing your thumbs against one another.

In other instances I have found that perhaps half the length of the pesi has turned completely into rust.

I would suggest that you heat the sorsoran, combined with gentle twisting and pulling action, every day or so, over an extended period of time. Be patient with it, it doesn't matter if it takes several months before it comes free, but the repeated heating and cooling with loosen any bond over time. If you grip the blade about halfway down, and apply heat to the sorsoran, when the blade gets too hot to hold, that's the time when you stop, you set it aside until it cools a little and then repeat, probably about 15 or 20 minutes at a time is sufficient to work at it. Then come back to it again the following day.

The silver (?) cover on the gonjo should not be a problem, but of course you will ensure that no direct heat is applied to it.

kai · 4th September 2010, 01:13 AM

Hello Shahrial,

Quote:

Currently I do have a piece which I have difficulty removing. A Sumatran keris, with what I believe to be a rhino hilt. Any suggestions on what course of action I should take?

Yes, most definitely: Please send it over to me....

How many times (and how long) have you tried the heating cycle?

Regards,
Kai

kai · 4th September 2010, 01:27 AM

Alan beat me to it. The blade looks very healthy and I do hope that the pesi is in a good condition but playing it safe it certainly the way to go.

Quote:

When a pesi is as badly rusted as these were it is very easy to break , so you need to proceed very carefully and do not overdo the twisting action, rather apply very little twisting force, and try to pull the hilt free by gripping the blade with your left hand and pushing your thumbs against one another.

Just to emphasize: Utilizing the thumbs gives much better control than pulling with the arms.

Quote:

If you grip the blade about halfway down, and apply heat to the sorsoran, when the blade gets too hot to hold, that's the time when you stop, you set it aside until it cools a little and then repeat, probably about 15 or 20 minutes at a time is sufficient to work at it. Then come back to it again the following day.

The silver (?) cover on the gonjo should not be a problem, but of course you will ensure that no direct heat is applied to it.

I'd also prefer to shield the hulu from radiating heat by holding it with a padded glove (kitchen ware).

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 4th September 2010, 01:41 AM

Kai, I usually hold the hilt in my hand, this way you can feel how hot its getting. If you use a candle or a small kerosene lamp there is in fact very little radiated heat. I'm not as cautious as I advise others to be, I use a propane torch held in a vice, and pass the blade through the flame, even doing it this way and holding the hilt in my bare hand, there is very little radiated heat. I don't like to isolate myself from the hilt and the blade by using gloves, if you can feel them you know exactly how much heat is going into the keris, and where it is going.

Alam Shah · 4th September 2010, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I presume you have already tried applying heat to the blade as has been described in this thread? I know sometimes it takes much persistence an repetition.

Believe me, I've tried.. I usually use the candle technique, safest method yet.. then I'll put it in between a phone book, and gently try to twist the hilt.. This is my hardest hilt yet..

A. G. Maisey · 4th September 2010, 12:40 PM

Alam Shah, going back a few years I had a pedang that took me about a year to get the hilt off.

I bought it in Solo, and I wanted to get it stained there before I brought it home. I worked on it for the time I was there, probably about a month, and it did not shift even a little bit. I kept working on it when I got home, not every day, but whenever I had time and remembered.

It was a pedang, so it had a square section tang, not a round tang, that meant it could only be very slightly worked side to side while it was being pulled.

It took me months and months to get it free, and when it finally did come out of the hilt, at least half the tang was left in the hilt in the form of rust.

In my experience, the heating/cooling treatment will always free a tang, but it takes time. You just keep working at it and don't lose patience.

I once saw Pak Parman work on a hilt every single day for 6 weeks, using a candle for heat, at the end of the six weeks it was just beginning to move.

Alam Shah · 4th September 2010, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The heat also needs some time to penetrate up the pesi and stay there; especially if you are trying to melt/soften a substance .

Yes, I'd say that's Rhino .

Thanks, point noted. It took me a while to identify it as rhino.. and it takes ages to convince friends.. When Michael Marlow (VVV), was in Singapore, we met at MAG, Adni was also skeptical but Kai Wee was somewhat convinced..

Alam Shah · 4th September 2010, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

.. I would suggest that you heat the sorsoran, combined with gentle twisting and pulling action, every day or so, over an extended period of time. Be patient with it, it doesn't matter if it takes several months before it comes free, but the repeated heating and cooling with loosen any bond over time. If you grip the blade about halfway down, and apply heat to the sorsoran, when the blade gets too hot to hold, that's the time when you stop, you set it aside until it cools a little and then repeat, probably about 15 or 20 minutes at a time is sufficient to work at it. Then come back to it again the following day.

Hi Alan,
Thank you for the detailed advice.. I'll proceed as suggested..

Sometimes, half the fun is trying to do thing ourselves. I've a friend whom while trying to remove an old bugis hilt, broke the pesi into 3 parts.. with only half an inch left. Although it can get fixed.. the damage is done.

Alam Shah · 4th September 2010, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Shahrial,

Yes, most definitely: Please send it over to me....

How many times (and how long) have you tried the heating cycle?

Regards,
Kai

Yeah Kai, as far as I can remember, you already have this blade form..

I've tried at least 10 times, over a period of one year.. I've done as what Alan explained.. with one hand holding the blade to feel if it's too hot.. sometimes I use a piece of cloth, so that I can heat the blade a little hotter.. normally, 3 cycles..

Alam Shah · 4th September 2010, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Alam Shah, going back a few years I had a pedang that took me about a year to get the hilt off.
..

It took me months and months to get it free, and when it finally did come out of the hilt, at least half the tang was left in the hilt in the form of rust.

In my experience, the heating/cooling treatment will always free a tang, but it takes time. You just keep working at it and don't lose patience...

So, I reckon it's normal then. Since I'm the current custodian, I'll normally take my time working on it.. Sometimes giving it some thought, to conserve or restore..

3rd September 2010, 04:10 PM	#45
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,119	Gentlemen, please allow me to state my views here. We have here a new collector seeking advice on methods of cleaning and restoration. I think that it is important that we consider when we give advise in such a case that the new and relatively uninformed collector may well try a method when it is suggested to him. I personally would feel remiss if i did not stand up and yell loudly from the hilltop if i were to see someone suggest a methodology which i felt could be dangerous or damaging to any part of a keris. I think that for the most part we all consider the blade to take a prime position of importance when we deal with the keris. However, i also believe that the vast majority of collectors on this forum are also interested in preserving dress, especially antique dress, and most particularly well crafted dress whenever possible. I am also not completely convinced that it is always the Malay's notion that the dress is unimportant compared to the blade. I can't, for instance, see any of our Malay collectors using this boiling water method on their favorite antique keris tajong. Neither am i convinced that well carved antique tajong hilt are at all easy to replace, even for those who live in the region and i might be wrong, but whenever i have seen tajong presented the emphasis of importance always seems to be on the dress, not the blade. I don't think that anyone is dismissing the actuality of this practice of boiling hilts as one that it commonly done. We are simply remarking on the fact that commonly done or not, it is not a good idea. To present such a method to an impressionable new collect is also not a good idea, especially when methods have already been presented that have been proven to work and not damage any part of the keris. I am not sure that i would use the words that Mr. Maisey has in describing this practice, however, i would not argue with his viewpoint either. Many things throughout history have been accepted by certain facet of society, but that did not make them necessarily good ideas. If you would allow an admittedly extreme example, it was once considered necessary,right and proper for a woman to throw herself (or be thrown) upon her husbands funeral pyre (sati) in Hindu culture. That it was condoned, that it was a fact, didn't make it a good idea. I suggest that we proceed with caution here in this discussion. I do not believe it is anyone's intention to dismiss or insult the practices of any person or group of people here so i trust that we can all remain civil and calm. I see nothing wrong with discussing different ideas and method used for anything keris related on this forum, but i also think that it is most important that we make clear the possible dangers that some of these methods might hold, especially for impressionable new collectors seeking the best and lest invasive methods of restoration. Not to do so would be irresponsible Last edited by David; 3rd September 2010 at 04:36 PM. Reason: grammar

31st August 2010, 11:08 PM	#31
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	I read in a couple of posts about heating with a blowtorch but I'll give the candle a go. Also spotted a couple of posts dealing with a hilt that had been glued but I hope it won't come to that. I am planning on the following process: 1. remove hilt 2. degrease 3. soak in juice then daily (well as close to daily as possible) 4. scrub with toothbrush 5. re-soak repeat till blade cleaned 6. lime juice and arsenic (optional depending on obtaining arsenic) 7. oil 8. re-hilt What is a good indicator that a blade has been sufficiently cleaned to treat with lime and arsenic? How frequently to change out the juice? Also posts mention keris oil, where can this be sourced? and what is it's closest readily available equivalent? Many thanks

31st August 2010, 11:47 PM	#32
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Light Mineral Oil is what it's called in the US . Can be scented with a bit cendana (sandlewood) oil . Pure Sandalwood is nigh impossible to get these days and is very expensive .

1st September 2010, 01:42 AM	#33
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Yes, I have mentioned a couple of times that I use a gas torch, but I have never recommended this for use, because if you're new at this game, it is too difficult to control. A candle or a small kero lamp is never ever going to damage the blade through too much heat.Others may also have mentioned a torch, but maybe they have the experience to gauge the correct amount of heat. Its not a good tool for somebody without experience to use. Apart from the daily scrubbing with a toothbrush you also need to pick any little bits of hard rust off with a sharp metal tool. A saddler's awl is good, so is an old three sided file ground to a point. Depending on how rusty the blade is you can also scrub with steel wool and sink cleaner during the cleaning period. When you consider the blade to be clean, you need to scrub with steel wool and sink cleaner to get it white, before you begin to stain it. If you cannot get arsenic, and you're satisfied with the result out of the pineapple juice, then obviously you don't whiten the blade.If you decide to leave the blade as is out of the juice, you need to ensure that you get every last trace of juice off that blade, dry it immediately and then dry with a hair dryer.Spray with WD40 and allow to stand over night. You'll easily see when its clean, because there will be no rust left on it. None at all. You don't need to change the juice. In hot weather it will grow a fungus on top, which stinks and is unsightly, but this can just be lifted off and thrown away. In cool weather it will stay clear of fungus. As Rick has said, sandalwood oil is not easy to get and is expensive. Sandalwood is the smell of the traditional oil. In Jawa this is added to a coconut oil base. In fact, other oils are also used, and the coconut oil used in Jawa is not necessarily ideal as a base. The best protection will be afforded by a good gun oil. Light machine oil is also OK. If you can find an alternate lifestyle shop/ hippy shop or even a health food store, you'll find that they probably sell essential oils. You may find sandalwood there, or some other acceptable oil such as jasmin or rose, you can mix one of these essential oils with medicinal parrafin, and that will give you an acceptable keris oil.Essential oils are used in aroma therapy, and in Australia you can find an acceptable oil almost anywhere, even in small country towns.You don't need much of the essential oil to give the parrafin a decent smell. I always wrap a freshly cleaned,stained, oiled blade in plastic. This will give protection against deterioration for a very long time.

1st September 2010, 06:20 AM	#34
BigG Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Singapore Posts: 75	I used Wahl brand light machine oil. It is odourless and colourless. It is a brand generally associated with hair clippers. To this, I would blend in my own mix of floral scent... i guess this is easier found here in my back of the woods... but essential oils use in aromatherapy.. like Mr Maisey has said, workswell too. You may consider using a mix of something sweet and floral like jasmine, rose etc and cut it wth a bit of something citrusy.. This is to prevent the overpowering presence of the floral note. Once you mix these oils they should generally dissolve together... if not just leave it to collect at the base of the container as it will still transmit is fragrance to the rest of the oil. use only the top clear portion when oiling your keris.. hope this wld help... rgds

3rd September 2010, 04:34 AM	#35
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	to play it safe, in order to remove the hilt that is attached to the pesi using damar/jabung etc, just soak the entire hilt in boiled water.... in less than 3 minutes, normally the hilt can easily be removed. And to clean the blade safely, just soak it in water (best is pure water coming down from waterfall or spring water...) mix with fresh pineapple cubes (pineapple skin is better) and mengkudu (Morinda Citrifolia). This is traditional method practised by Javanese living in Malaysia.

3rd September 2010, 04:59 AM	#36
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	That's playing it safe? Interesting approach.

3rd September 2010, 09:21 AM	#40
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	The advice I have already given is based upon this:- I have in excess of 55 years collecting, buying, selling, making, restoring keris. Apart from what I have taught myself, I have learnt Javanese methods of restoration from several mranggis, including two who were in my employ for many years. One of these men was the son, and grandson of mranggis. I have learnt other aspects of keris manufacture and restoration from several blade makers. I have also made a very large number of damascus and carbon steel blades and was a member of the Australian Knifemakers Guild for a number of years. The way in which heat can damage a blade is by heating it to a point where the temper will be drawn. The area of the blade that is heated to remove a hilt is almost never heat treated in a keris blade, thus there is no temper to draw. The heat generated by a candle or a small kerosene lamp is not sufficient to damage a blade in any way at all.It is not possible to raise the temperature of a blade to the point where temper can be drawn, by use of a candle or kerosene lamp. Hilt to blade can be secured by rust, cloth, hair, damar, jabung, or shellac, or in some cases a modern glue or epoxy resin. Boiling water may soften jabung if the wax content is sufficiently high, but it will have no effect on rust, damar, shellac or epoxy resin. Boiling water will cause cloth to expand at approximately the same rate that it causes wood to expand, because of this there is a risk of splitting the wood in the hilt. That risk of splitting applies in all cases as soon as the hilt enters the boiling water. If the hilt does not split, depending upon the finish that has been applied to the hilt, it will possibly need refinishing. In my most humble opinion the practice here related of immersing a complete hilt into boiling water in order to remove it from a blade is most certainly barbaric and verges upon idiocy. I accept what has been related , that this is common practice in Singapore and Malaysia, and this being the case, it tells me all I need to know about the professionalism and skill of the people who engage in this practice. Regrettably Big G I must disagree with you that this is a matter of perspective. It is not. It is a matter of professional standards. The dominant professional standard to be applied in the restoration of any keris is to proceed in a way that will cause no damage to the keris. No damage to blade. No damage to hilt. No damage to mendak. No damage to any part of the keris. The profession involved is the profession of the m'ranggi, and this has had a long and continuous history in Jawa. I would most sincerely suggest that the people who currently subscribe to the boiling water philosophy would be doing themselves and their clients a very great service by seeking out some instruction from true professionals in this field of keris restoration.

3rd September 2010, 09:58 AM	#41
BigG Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Singapore Posts: 75	Thank you for the reiteration, yet again, of the vast experience that you have in the field. I accept that not many amongst us here can hope to claim to have the vastness of experience that you do. However mr Maisey, your views, perspective and practices on the matter and its origins are just one of many. The context that you practice and espouse those views is yet again different from our own. That the views and underlying basis for those views do not match yours is, whether you accept it or not, a matter of fact. That you would denigrate them because it doesnt quite fit in into your own comfort level saddens me. but I do hope that you would be more mindful of using the terms that you have in refering to us in the way that you have. In the mind of many collectors here, the blade & the Peksi is everything. Thus, the manner that is employed. Not everyone do this, but many do. There is a rich seam of untapped knowledge in terms of practices that are based on matters of practicality and customs amongs the collectors here that are unknown by many forumers. Many are not motivated to share but some are... What penangsang have done in making us aware of one of the practicalities of the collectors here should be applauded. It may not to the liking and may astound many, but it was shared in the spirit of openness. It is sad that his views have been treated in the way that it has been.

3rd September 2010, 12:18 PM	#43
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Big G, I have read and understood this most recent post of yours, the one prior to it, and the post of Penangsang. The comments I have made to date I personally consider to be very restrained,and in no way criticism of an unfair nature, which of course is the meaning of "denigrate". In light of the recommendations made, even though made in good faith, I consider that I have been overly polite and quite delicate in my comments. Most certainly I have criticised the methods which are apparently employed in Singapore and Malaysia, by those entrusted with the preservation of the creations of their ancestors. However, this criticism is no way unfair. The methods described by Penangsang, and supported by yourself are methods which will cause damage, they are not methods which can be used in full assurance that no damage will result to a hilt. Perhaps sometimes immersion in boiling water will assist in freeing a hilt from a pesi, but at what cost? Penangsang has mentioned that he has used boiling water a number of times without damage to the hilt. I would suggest two things, firstly he has been lucky, and secondly that if he followed exactly the process he advised in his post, it is probable that the hilt could have been removed without the application of any kind of heat, but just by the application of a little professional skill. Not only can these methods not be relied upon not to damage a hilt, but they can most certainly be relied upon to create an increased level of risk of breakage of the pesi where that pesi is heavily rusted and is being retained in the hilt by rust.This risk will be multiplied where the hilt is of ivory, bone or horn. rather than wood. Then of course, we have the tayuman situation, and old tayuman hilts are not low cost disposables. The judicious use of heat will loosen any pesi , whether it has been retained by rust, jabung or anything else. Boiling water will not be effective in all cases, but can be relied upon to raise the level of risk of a broken pesi, as well as a split hilt. If one has no concern as to whether the hilt is damaged, and the pesi is broken, by all means immerse the hilt in boiling water. However, if one wishes to free the hilt without breaking the pesi and with no damage to the hilt, then one should learn how to use heat to do this. I most certainly accept that the methods I have recommended are not the only methods, however, they are methods used in Central Jawa by people with a great deal more experience than I have, in some cases by people who can count generations of their forebears as mranggis before them.The methods I have recommended are well tested, and they do work, not only that, but used correctly they do not ever result in damage to any part of the keris. What I have stated here is not opinion. It is demonstrable fact.

3rd September 2010, 02:51 PM	#44
BigG Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Singapore Posts: 75	Firstly let me state that I agree that the dress of the keris is of equal importance to the blade of the keris. I have personally never used the boiling method and have been careful to inform ay craftsmen who would restore pieces that I own to not employ this method. I personally value the asthetics of the dress as much as I do the blade. The pcs that I have shared wth here and would share more in the future, wld attest to this... But what I am stating here is the fact, that this method is employed by many, not all... but many as a means of removing a hilt. And I have given the forumers the rationale of why this method is being employed by many in this particular region... And that rationale in my opinion is bcos of the inordinate importance that is given by them to the blade as well as the peksi as oppose to the dress, especially the hilt. The other rationale to this is because of the relative ease in which a hilt can be replace here... new or antique... I have endeavoured to inform the forumers here, newbies & veterans alike that there is an alternative but it is chosen as a result of the specific context of the situation found here. That this method is found to be shocking or unacceptable should not detract from the fact that it exist and is being employed. I accept that it is unacceptable to many in the forum... It is also something that would not be resorted to by many here, including myself... but that it exist, and is considered valid by peope for the reasons that I have mentioned should also be made known. Be critical of this method if you feel needful to by all means... Explain the contextual rationale behind it to make the forumers understand why this may not be something that they should consider, by all means... but surely by any standard of decorum... labelling a member's effort at disclosing what he applies and intend to share in good faith as an act of barbarism & idiocy would be far from what wld be considered as restrained. We may disagree about what is being said, we should endeavour to tamper its impact and we should if we believe that we know better... but we should not maligned these views the way that it has been done here... As we Malays would say it; "Orang berbudi kita berbahasa"... As they are civil so are we courteous. .. Lets reciprocate ideas and views sounded off in good faith in the manner that it deserves...

3rd September 2010, 04:21 PM	#46
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Big G, I thank you for your further explanation. The situation as it applies in Singapore and Malaysia is now much more clear to me. Perhaps if something like this had been written initially you may have been able to avoid taking umbrage at my most civil and restrained comments. My comments were most certainly critical, and were intended to be. To offer advice such this to people with little experience or knowledge could result in severe loss for such people.Apparently you concur with this point of view, as you now advise us that you do not subscribe to the boiling water philosophy. May I suggest that you swallow your bile and re-read my post that has seemingly caused you such offence? To assist you in this I quote here the words to which you seem to object:- In my most humble opinion the practice here related of immersing a complete hilt into boiling water in order to remove it from a blade is most certainly barbaric and verges upon idiocy. Please take note:- I have given my opinion that the act of immersing a hilt into boiling water is an act that I consider to be barbaric and verging upon idiocy. I have not said that Penangsang's effort at relating this act was one of barbarism and near idiocy; in fact, I offer Penangsang my sincere thanks for providing me with this information, as it permits me to form an opinion of the level of professionalism that is to be found in respect of keris restoration in Singapore and Malaysia. However, although I appreciate this invaluable gain in knowledge, I repeat that to offer such advice to the inexperienced is more than a little irresponsible. There is a very great difference between describing an act as barbaric and verging upon idiocy, and describing the recounting of that act as barbaric and verging upon idiocy. I'm sure that when you have reread and understood what I have written you will be able to appreciate this difference. Now, to address your little gem of wisdom, which seems to imply that I may have been discourteous. Big G, I always endeavor to be as polite as is possible when I write in this forum. In this present exchange I have not varied from this approach. I have restrained myself from saying what I would like to say about this boiling water business, and I have directed my very restrained criticism at the act itself. My remarks in respect of those who engage in this practice have been limited to offering some advice, which, as with all advice, they are free to accept or reject as they see fit:- I would most sincerely suggest that the people who currently subscribe to the boiling water philosophy would be doing themselves and their clients a very great service by seeking out some instruction from true professionals in this field of keris restoration. I most earnestly request that you read only the words I have written, rather than to imagine that which I have not written. In order to demonstrate that I bear you no ill will because of your misrepresentation of my comments, I will terminate my involvement in this exchange at this point. Should you have anything to add, please do so in confidence that I will not respond to any further of your posts in this matter.

3rd September 2010, 05:43 PM	#47
BigG Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Singapore Posts: 75	Mr Maisey... I fully understand what it is that you had said and the intended manner of its saying... As a Malay would put it, I truly understand what has been written "yang tersurat" and what is implied behind it "yang tersirat". I end this exchange with you with a gift of a Pantun (Traditional Malay quatrain)... Tumbuh di rimba si daun palas Gugur di hutan berbelas-belas Kata hamba kata beralas Kata tuan duri berhias By the woods the leaves a-twining Green grown their tendrils a-winding My words... are words a-soothing Thy own.. barbed and wounding Rgds..

3rd September 2010, 06:13 PM	#48
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Dear friends, I live in Singapore and have never used the boiling water treatment. Most of my fellow collectors here, do not subscribe to this treatment, as well, although we are aware of it. Personally, I value the few old hilts that I have and would prefer to use other techniques of hilt removal to prevent damage to them. Hilts are easily replaced but in the olden days, they are highly prized item, normally made of selected quality materials, with certain attributes to them. From a cultural aspect, it does represents something that if understood, one would value it. Currently I do have a piece which I have difficulty removing. A Sumatran keris, with what I believe to be a rhino hilt. Any suggestions on what course of action I should take?

3rd September 2010, 07:42 PM	#49
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,119	Shahrial, thank you for providing different perspective from the Singapore keris community. I nice and unusual hilt you have there. I certainly don't think you would want to destroy it for the sake of the blade. I presume you have already tried applying heat to the blade as has been described in this thread? I know sometimes it takes much persistence an repetition.

3rd September 2010, 08:18 PM	#50
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	The heat also needs some time to penetrate up the pesi and stay there; especially if you are trying to melt/soften a substance . Yes, I'd say that's Rhino .

4th September 2010, 01:00 AM	#51
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Thank you Shahrial for your further clarification of the place that the technique of boiling a hilt free of the pesi occupies in your part of the world. I can now understand that this is far from being a generally utilised practice, and it seems that perhaps it may be used by only a very few people. It is comforting to know that the practice is not as widespread as it initially appeared to be. This keris that you have shown a photo of will very likely take an extended period of time before it gives up its hilt. I have encountered several cases where I have needed to heat and reheat over a long time before the hilt finally came free. In all cases the hilt materials were other than wood; one was ivory, a couple were horn, one was probably rhino horn, and one was very similar to the hilt on your keris. In a couple of these instances, when the hilt finally did come free the pesi was only about as thick as a darning needle, inside the hole in the hilt there were layers of rust. When a pesi is as badly rusted as these were it is very easy to break , so you need to proceed very carefully and do not overdo the twisting action, rather apply very little twisting force, and try to pull the hilt free by gripping the blade with your left hand and pushing your thumbs against one another. In other instances I have found that perhaps half the length of the pesi has turned completely into rust. I would suggest that you heat the sorsoran, combined with gentle twisting and pulling action, every day or so, over an extended period of time. Be patient with it, it doesn't matter if it takes several months before it comes free, but the repeated heating and cooling with loosen any bond over time. If you grip the blade about halfway down, and apply heat to the sorsoran, when the blade gets too hot to hold, that's the time when you stop, you set it aside until it cools a little and then repeat, probably about 15 or 20 minutes at a time is sufficient to work at it. Then come back to it again the following day. The silver (?) cover on the gonjo should not be a problem, but of course you will ensure that no direct heat is applied to it.

4th September 2010, 01:41 AM	#54
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Kai, I usually hold the hilt in my hand, this way you can feel how hot its getting. If you use a candle or a small kerosene lamp there is in fact very little radiated heat. I'm not as cautious as I advise others to be, I use a propane torch held in a vice, and pass the blade through the flame, even doing it this way and holding the hilt in my bare hand, there is very little radiated heat. I don't like to isolate myself from the hilt and the blade by using gloves, if you can feel them you know exactly how much heat is going into the keris, and where it is going.

4th September 2010, 12:40 PM	#56
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Alam Shah, going back a few years I had a pedang that took me about a year to get the hilt off. I bought it in Solo, and I wanted to get it stained there before I brought it home. I worked on it for the time I was there, probably about a month, and it did not shift even a little bit. I kept working on it when I got home, not every day, but whenever I had time and remembered. It was a pedang, so it had a square section tang, not a round tang, that meant it could only be very slightly worked side to side while it was being pulled. It took me months and months to get it free, and when it finally did come out of the hilt, at least half the tang was left in the hilt in the form of rust. In my experience, the heating/cooling treatment will always free a tang, but it takes time. You just keep working at it and don't lose patience. I once saw Pak Parman work on a hilt every single day for 6 weeks, using a candle for heat, at the end of the six weeks it was just beginning to move.