Oldest dated flyssa - appeal to EU/Spanish forumites - Page 2

Jim McDougall · 10th May 2019, 02:09 AM

Kubur, , this may be a case for Wikipedia fallibility. In the 'Kabyles' entry, this illustration is listed as "A Seated Kabyla" by Martinus Rorbye (1803-48). Apparently he traveled extensively and sketched for his paintings, but as far as I could find, while he visited Ottoman regions, nothing indicated he had been to the Maghreb.
Thank you for the correction, which I will note accordingly.

Actually Tirri was of course not the first to suggest the similarities between the Laz bichagi and the flyssa.

It was first noted in the Danish article "Origins of the Shashka" (1941) by Triikman & Jacobsen. Years ago as I was having that article translated, I noticed a comparison noted in "Schwert Degen Sabel" (1962)by Gerhard Seifert which showed a flyssa, and a Laz Bichagi (termed by him a Kurdish-Armenian yataghan).
Neither of these noted in detail any connections beyond the obvious similarity in the needle point blade.
When I contacted Herr Seifert (late 90s)and asked about his source for the term he used for these horned hilt, needle point recurved blades, he told me he had received the information from Holger Jacobsen (the co author of 1941 article) whom he noted had been his 'mentor'.
When I asked more on the 'Kurdish-Armenian' yataghan, he told me he recalled (he no longer had it) that it had strange inscriptions in unusual alphabet. I took it that these may well have been Georgian, as it seems I had seen examples with such inscriptions, and persons I was in touch with in Tblisi had noted these swords had been occasionally present in their regions.

The so called 'Laz bichagi' is also regarded as Transcaucasian and the examples in the article (1941) noted them from Erzerum and Trebizon, but as far as I could determine, were relative late comers to the edged weapon forms of these areas. I believe these were collected mid 19th c. or later. Examples of their type were noted with other oddly recurved swords noted in an 1897 reference by a Hungarian traveler (cited in 1941).

It is my impression that the flyssa predates the Laz Bichagi, but doubt that it influenced these recurved swords of Asia Minor, as flyssa seem possibly late 18th c. But we need further proof to make that an assertion. In any case, the influences indirectly to either weapon may have come from yataghans convergently.

10th May 2019, 02:09 AM	#31
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Kubur, , this may be a case for Wikipedia fallibility. In the 'Kabyles' entry, this illustration is listed as "A Seated Kabyla" by Martinus Rorbye (1803-48). Apparently he traveled extensively and sketched for his paintings, but as far as I could find, while he visited Ottoman regions, nothing indicated he had been to the Maghreb. Thank you for the correction, which I will note accordingly. Actually Tirri was of course not the first to suggest the similarities between the Laz bichagi and the flyssa. It was first noted in the Danish article "Origins of the Shashka" (1941) by Triikman & Jacobsen. Years ago as I was having that article translated, I noticed a comparison noted in "Schwert Degen Sabel" (1962)by Gerhard Seifert which showed a flyssa, and a Laz Bichagi (termed by him a Kurdish-Armenian yataghan). Neither of these noted in detail any connections beyond the obvious similarity in the needle point blade. When I contacted Herr Seifert (late 90s)and asked about his source for the term he used for these horned hilt, needle point recurved blades, he told me he had received the information from Holger Jacobsen (the co author of 1941 article) whom he noted had been his 'mentor'. When I asked more on the 'Kurdish-Armenian' yataghan, he told me he recalled (he no longer had it) that it had strange inscriptions in unusual alphabet. I took it that these may well have been Georgian, as it seems I had seen examples with such inscriptions, and persons I was in touch with in Tblisi had noted these swords had been occasionally present in their regions. The so called 'Laz bichagi' is also regarded as Transcaucasian and the examples in the article (1941) noted them from Erzerum and Trebizon, but as far as I could determine, were relative late comers to the edged weapon forms of these areas. I believe these were collected mid 19th c. or later. Examples of their type were noted with other oddly recurved swords noted in an 1897 reference by a Hungarian traveler (cited in 1941). It is my impression that the flyssa predates the Laz Bichagi, but doubt that it influenced these recurved swords of Asia Minor, as flyssa seem possibly late 18th c. But we need further proof to make that an assertion. In any case, the influences indirectly to either weapon may have come from yataghans convergently. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 10th May 2019 at 02:28 AM.