Ambon Keris for interest - Page 2

kai · 13th February 2019, 06:08 PM

Hello Detlef,

Quote:

The good thing by this is that when you want to sell it one day that there are no CITES prohibition on it by international trade!

Whoa, hold your horses!

Hippo sure is regulated: The common Hippo, Hippopotamus amphibius Linnaeus, 1758, is listed in Appendix II of the CITES convention. And some populations are even under stricter control.

While antiques *should* be exempt, the truth is you have to follow international and local legislation & regulations to the letter...

Regards,
Kai

kai · 13th February 2019, 06:34 PM

Quote:

i can't state more strongly that in trying to remove the hilt, which i agree is worth attempting, it is the ivory hilt that is more likely to break before the tang will, so do work slowly and carefully. No matter how nice it would be to remove this hilt it is not worth cracking or breaking it.

I agree with David here. Since the blade appears to be pretty old (easily 19th c., maybe older) the tang may also be on the fragile side of things. Thus, it is important to move ahead gently. It really can take weeks or months to get a really stubborn hilt moving.

However, I'd suggest to really keep trying to remove the hilt and clean the tang (pesi): There certainly is rust on the tang, too; and the vinegar treatment almost certainly brought moisture (at least humidity and vinegar vapour) into the base of the hilt which will increase the risk of faster rusting.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 13th February 2019, 07:12 PM

Hello Greg,

Quote:

A few more photos - it has cleaned up quite nicely and with interesting rose tint to the blade and I’m wondering if anyone can educate me on the chemistry of the steel composition used for keris forging. I am very interested in blacksmithing but am ignorant of what the makeup of these blades might be and what would influence the colour - i.e. might it have a bit of copper in the mix or would a high phosphorous content possibly contribute to the tint?

The iron sources (as well as iron ore origins) utilized in keris production are extremely diverse and often get traded from quite distant regions. There usually is a central layer of steel (resulting in an edge that can be hardened) which gets sandwiched between layers of very mild pamor steel (often laminated from 2 or more different irons which may show contrast upon etching).

I suspect that the rose color tinge originates from the copper leached from the selut. After disassembling, another short "wash" with vinegar will probably yield more neutral colors (it may be preferable to rub the blade with lemon or lime first)...

Regards,
Kai

Larks · 13th February 2019, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I agree with David here. Since the blade appears to be pretty old (easily 19th c., maybe older) the tang may also be on the fragile side of things. Thus, it is important to move ahead gently. It really can take weeks or months to get a really stubborn hilt moving.

However, I'd suggest to really keep trying to remove the hilt and clean the tang (pesi): There certainly is rust on the tang, too; and the vinegar treatment almost certainly brought moisture (at least humidity and vinegar vapour) into the base of the hilt which will increase the risk of faster rusting.

Regards,
Kai

Understood Kai and I agree that the tang is likely to be quite heavily rusted. I’ll try again over the weekend but I agree how fragile the tang is likely to be, given the state of the blade before cleaning, so I am very wary of breaking it.

David · 13th February 2019, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Whoa, hold your horses!

Hippo sure is regulated: The common Hippo, Hippopotamus amphibius Linnaeus, 1758, is listed in Appendix II of the CITES convention. And some populations are even under stricter control.

While antiques *should* be exempt, the truth is you have to follow international and local legislation & regulations to the letter...

Kai, i am not saying there is no regulation, but AFAIK currently it is completely legal to buy and trade in hippo ivory in the USA. I am not sure about other countries, but it is openly sold at online websites. A simple google search of Hippo tusk for sale will give you numerous websites that sell it.

Sajen · 13th February 2019, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Detlef,

Whoa, hold your horses!

Hippo sure is regulated: The common Hippo, Hippopotamus amphibius Linnaeus, 1758, is listed in Appendix II of the CITES convention. And some populations are even under stricter control.

While antiques *should* be exempt, the truth is you have to follow international and local legislation & regulations to the letter...

After search I have to agree but like David told I was aware about some sites where you can buy legal hippo ivory!?

Sajen · 13th February 2019, 08:52 PM

Just read a little bit more, the trade with hippo ivory is free but need to be documented whatever this mean. But there seems to be regulations on it.

Regards,
Detlef

David · 13th February 2019, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Just read a little bit more, the trade with hippo ivory is free but need to be documented whatever this mean. But there seems to be regulations on it.

Regards,
Detlef

Well, i would assume that the documentation needs to be on the sellers end just to make sure that the tusks were legally harvested. But I'm as the buyer, can go to one of these websites, click on the tusk i want, pay by credit card and receive it in the mail. One of the companies i saw only ships in the USA, but others were international.
Now, i do not know what the law is regarding antique and carved specimens like this hilt. But since the regulations on purchasing new hip tusks seems fairly lax compared to elephant which is completely banned, i would imaging there is a way to sell a keris like this legally if one were so disposed.

kai · 14th February 2019, 11:20 AM

Hello Detlef and David,

CITES primarily regulates international trade. But mind you, it's the national legislations which are trying to implement the international convention (and additional treaties) and, thus, the rules differ.

Some of the CITES member states decided to surpass the international agreements for a variety of reasons or notions, for example the US with the complete import stop for African elephants (for whatever reason, hunting trophies can be exempt though if I remember correctly), or some US states with even stricter bans of intrastate sale.

It is the paradox of the CITES approach that international trade shall be regulated while it does not touch national trade/utilization of the same organism: If there is no additional national legislation, you can legally buy any CITES-regulated creature at any local market and have it cooked at the next restaurant - you can't bring it into another country for conservation breeding purposes though (without doing all the official paperwork and obtaining CITES permits). Local consumption/utilization of natural resources is usually not the driving force for extinction; howeever, in larger countries even nation-wide trade can be just as devastating. Most countries have implemented legislation which also addresses use of natural resources within its borders; enforcement is much more likely to be insufficient though.

Ironically, someone offering freshly-hunted hippo might have a relatively easy time in obtaining necessary papers. When Greg bought the keris, he probably did not got any receipt; even if there was a receipt, it probably would not be specific enough to allow positive identification. So, there probably is not any valid documentation (which is needed for the permits); of course, this is true for quite a large amount of antique collector's pieces. There are certain relaxations for fully worked craft but you still have to provide documentation.

Even if you had all the needed papers and a valid reason for international transfer (depending on the respective appendix the source organism currently is listed in), the fees for obtaining certificates and permits may be pretty high compared to the price an average hilt in not-perfect condition might fetch.

Yes, hippo can be commercially traded. It is regulated though and it may be tough to conform to all regulations. Be sure to seek for an update rather than just relying on "current" practises...

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 14th February 2019, 11:39 AM

When a cautious man sees a steamroller coming down the road, he moves to one side and goes around it.

David · 14th February 2019, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

When a cautious man sees a steamroller coming down the road, he moves to one side and goes around it.

Indeed...and sometimes there are numerous ways to avoid the oncoming crusher.

Sajen · 15th February 2019, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

But since the regulations on purchasing new hip tusks seems fairly lax compared to elephant which is completely banned, i would imaging there is a way to sell a keris like this legally if one were so disposed.

That's exactly what I think. It will be more easy to sell antique hippo ivory as elephant or sperm whale ivory.

13th February 2019, 08:52 PM	#37
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,763	Just read a little bit more, the trade with hippo ivory is free but need to be documented whatever this mean. But there seems to be regulations on it. Regards, Detlef

14th February 2019, 11:20 AM	#39
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Detlef and David, CITES primarily regulates international trade. But mind you, it's the national legislations which are trying to implement the international convention (and additional treaties) and, thus, the rules differ. Some of the CITES member states decided to surpass the international agreements for a variety of reasons or notions, for example the US with the complete import stop for African elephants (for whatever reason, hunting trophies can be exempt though if I remember correctly), or some US states with even stricter bans of intrastate sale. It is the paradox of the CITES approach that international trade shall be regulated while it does not touch national trade/utilization of the same organism: If there is no additional national legislation, you can legally buy any CITES-regulated creature at any local market and have it cooked at the next restaurant - you can't bring it into another country for conservation breeding purposes though (without doing all the official paperwork and obtaining CITES permits). Local consumption/utilization of natural resources is usually not the driving force for extinction; howeever, in larger countries even nation-wide trade can be just as devastating. Most countries have implemented legislation which also addresses use of natural resources within its borders; enforcement is much more likely to be insufficient though. Ironically, someone offering freshly-hunted hippo might have a relatively easy time in obtaining necessary papers. When Greg bought the keris, he probably did not got any receipt; even if there was a receipt, it probably would not be specific enough to allow positive identification. So, there probably is not any valid documentation (which is needed for the permits); of course, this is true for quite a large amount of antique collector's pieces. There are certain relaxations for fully worked craft but you still have to provide documentation. Even if you had all the needed papers and a valid reason for international transfer (depending on the respective appendix the source organism currently is listed in), the fees for obtaining certificates and permits may be pretty high compared to the price an average hilt in not-perfect condition might fetch. Yes, hippo can be commercially traded. It is regulated though and it may be tough to conform to all regulations. Be sure to seek for an update rather than just relying on "current" practises... Regards, Kai

14th February 2019, 11:39 AM	#40
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	When a cautious man sees a steamroller coming down the road, he moves to one side and goes around it.