Kris question to the knowledgeables - Page 2

MABAGANI · 4th January 2006, 12:49 AM

I like the book by O'ong Maryono, "Pencak Silat in the Indonesian archipelago".

nechesh · 4th January 2006, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

I like the book by O'ong Maryono, "Pencak Silat in the Indonesian archipelago".

Thanks, i've seen that book for sale, i'll have to look into it.

Pusaka · 4th January 2006, 12:55 AM

One other thing I would like to draw your attention to is that the Keris handle although it has been defaced it still has the original symbolic meaning, A man slightly bent over, hands resting on his stomach in meditation.

Rick · 4th January 2006, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

One other thing I would like to draw your attention to is that the Keris handle although it has been defaced it still has the original symbolic meaning, A man slightly bent over, hands resting on his stomach in meditation.

There are myriad styles of ukiran ; I don't think this theory really holds water .

This form that you refer to is called Jawa Demam or fevered man .
What does this have to do with the original topic we are discussing here anyway ?

Let's get back on that topic , shall we .

VANDOO · 4th January 2006, 05:08 AM

THE QUESTION IS WHICH CAME FIRST THE KERIS OR THE KRIS, I THINK THE KERIS! THEN THE LARGER FORM KRIS EVOLVED FROM IT. DID IT EVOLVE TO A LARGER SIZE IN THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE THE ADVENT OF ISLAM OR AFTER.
I WOULD GUESS THE KRIS WAS THERE BEFORE ISLAM AS THE TAILSMAN CARVINGS ARE UNLIKE ANYTHING FOUND WHERE ISLAM STARTED AND THE BELIEFS WOULD BE UNLIKELY TO HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY THE RELIGION. THE PEOPLE WHO CONVERTED TO ISLAM WOULD HAVE KEPT SOME OF THEIR TRADITIONS ALTHOUGH THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN MODIFIED BY THE NEW RELIGION AND LOST MANY OF THE MEANINGS THROUGH TIME.

AS IN MOST OCEANIC SOCIETYS THERE WERE PROBABLY VERY FEW IRON OR STEEL TOOLS OR WEAPONS IN THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE THE COMING OF THE HINDU ,ISLAM, CHRISTIAN SPANISH AND AMERICAN POWERS. ONLY THE TOP MEN IN AREAS WHERE FORIGN TRADERS CAME WERE LIKELY TO HAVE HAD THEM.
I SUSPECT THE MEANING OF THE ELEPHANT TRUNK AND OTHER CARVINGS WOULD BE MORE EASILY UNDERSTOOD BY GROUPS WHO HAVE NOT CHANGED RELIGION, CUSTOMS OR LIFE STYLE IF ANY SUCH GROUP EXHISTS. I DO THINK THAT THE HINDU BELIEFS AND ANSWERS PREDATE THE FULL DEVELOPMENT OF THE KRIS AND WOULD HAVE BEEN LOST UNDER THE RULES OF ISLAM. THE WAY OF MAKEING KRIS WOULD HAVE CONTINUED AS THAT WAS THE TRADITIONAL WAY THEY HAD ALWAYS BEEN MADE AND WHAT MADE THEM SUCH GOOD WEAPONS. I HAVE ALSO NOTICED SOME DAYAK SWORDS RESEMBLE SOME USED BY THE NAGA TRIBES IN INDIA AND BURMA SO INFLUENCE DEFINITELY CAME INTO THE REGION AT A EARLY TIME.

DISCLAIMER (THESE ARE JUST MY THOUGHTS ON IT WITH NO HARD FACTS TO BACK IT UP BUT IT SEEMS LIKE THE LOGICAL WAY FOR THINGS TO HAVE HAPPENED.) MENTIONING ONE RELIGION IS RISKY AND I HAVE MENTIONED THREE

I HOPE NO ONE TAKES OFFENCE AS NONE IS INTENDED.

MABAGANI · 4th January 2006, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I WOULD GUESS THE KRIS WAS THERE BEFORE ISLAM AS THE TAILSMAN CARVINGS ARE UNLIKE ANYTHING FOUND WHERE ISLAM STARTED AND THE BELIEFS WOULD BE UNLIKELY TO HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY THE RELIGION. THE PEOPLE WHO CONVERTED TO ISLAM WOULD HAVE KEPT SOME OF THEIR TRADITIONS ALTHOUGH THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN MODIFIED BY THE NEW RELIGION AND LOST MANY OF THE MEANINGS THROUGH TIME.

Not necessarily, the Moros practiced what was called "folk" Islam, meaning they intertwined early beliefs.
I'd agree the keris arrived in Philippines before Islam but not the kris, if it were true your timeline brings origins back a couple of centuries to before the mid 15th century? If I recall in a previous thread its rare or even unproven to find keris dated that early?
Eastern thought holds that true knowledge remains flexible, so I'll keep an open mind on this subject even if they don't fit into my own observations. It would be difficult to prove many of these opinions with concrete evidence like one would want, so many of the opinions are as good as any. Like you mentioned religion and faith can get sticky.
I've put out much of my ideas regarding the kris in this forum waiting to see how the next publication would mesh with my own study.

Boedhi Adhitya · 4th January 2006, 07:55 AM

Hi all,
First of all, I have to admit that I'm not an expert on Sundang (or anything else, I believe

), and I don't have all the answer.
Just as Mr Antonio Cejunior said, the Ricikan (or 'lattice work'

) have meanings, at least in Java. I don't know whether this philosphical meanings may apply to other blades from other region like Bali, Bugis, Malay or Moro. But since many experts believe that keris' origin was from Java and spread-out to archipelago when Majapahit kingdom reign (ca. 12/13 C.), it might be helpful to study the Javanese keris, as an aid to understand the meaning of the form, in this case, the lattice work.

Secondly, I have to warn all of the forumities that these kind of meanings are very subjectives, and may change from time-to-time, even from person-to-person, as 'pusaka' is always a private matters. This meaning usually passed by orally from generation to generation, so a good-old literature may not exist. The oldest reliable literature about the meaning of ricikan/dhapur keris is Serat Centhini, written ca. early 19 C. Other was written by Prince Karanggayam, ca. 16 C., but it's authenticity/reliability is questioned. So, the meaning I propose here is "as told by" the elders, and may not apply to as far as Majapahit era. Tracing the real meaning of it in Majapahit era could be very hard, if not impossible, since no reliable written evidence known about it exist.

Now about the ricikans :
The Elephant's trunk look-alike (pics.3 by Mr. Pusaka) called "sekar kacang" (sekar=flower, kacang=peanuts) or telale gajah (elephant's trunk). It's curled shape symbolize humble and man's obligation to worship The Almighty. Other non-curled shape called "Sekar Kacang Pogok" (broken) symbolize "dignity/proudness" and reserved for upper rank/class, as in dhapur Pasopati. The Upper class is (surely) expected to show their dignity and authorities to keep the obedience from his community, and thus, may maintain order.

The Jalu Memet (Jalu=taji=cockspur, memet=hidden) is the thorn-like protruding in the 'armpit' of Sekar Kacang (in the 3rd pics posted by Pusaka). Symbolize "the man cockspur" (just see it inside your brief,

). It should keep hidden, and use it in "the right way at the right place and in the right time" (with the right partner, indeed). The teaching behind it may go on and on.

The thorn-like protruding below the Jalu Memet called "lambe gajah" (lambe=bibir=lips). It symbolize the mouth, the teaching is simple : "watch your mouth/words"

Now the other side.. The Greneng (the lattice works on the right part of 1st pics by Mr. Antonio).

The Greneng consist of several ricikans :

The very first, single thorn, (just after the blade meets the ganja/crosspiece, pics. 1) called "thingil", means small things, symbolize as it means, the teaching is 'do not ignore the small/trivial things, keep the open and keen mind'
Pair of thorn just after the thingil called "ri pandan" = pandanus thorn. I don't know what it's meaning, yet

Just after the ri pandan, came the "W" shape (or "M", if the tip pointed down) called "ron dha". It resembles the "dha" characters in javanese 'font'. Just after 1st ron dha, came the ri pandan again, then the ron dha again, then double thorn of "kanyut" resembling the "Ma" characters (some book may define Kanyut as a curled-tail ganja). The double "ron dha" assembly called "greneng sungsun"=double/stacked greneng. All characters could be read as "dhadha ma". Serat Centhini interpret this as "The Death (MAti) is came from/inside your chest (DHADHA)" According to Garret and Solyom, Yosopangarso (elder brother of Empu Djeno, the son of Empu Supowinangun) interpret it as "My Chest likes thunder." Other elders interpret it as "Lapang Dada", means patience/tolerance. The "Greneng" word itself means grumble/complaining.
The whole assembly than could be interpreted as 'Live your life with spirit and patience, do not ignore the small things and do not grumble/complaining about your fate. We all will die after all"

Javanese culture is a very unique. When new culture/value came, they may 'reinterpret' their existing culture according to the new culture rather then completly changing their customs. Thus, the old art/culture may still being kept, but with new "interpretation", as in wayang, keris and other cultural ceremonies.

Wish may help.

Best Regards,

Boedhi Adhitya

Pusaka · 4th January 2006, 01:06 PM

I think the Keris is older then the kris. Perhaps the Keris shape influenced the shaping of native long bladed bush knives so that gradually they developed and took on a more keris like appearance. I think that they are probably pre Islamic also. The general symbolism would be the same though.

Pusaka · 4th January 2006, 01:45 PM

I think many of the vedic symbolisms involved with the keris are touch upon in this article http://www.yoga-age.com/articles/lightonvrtra.html

Pusaka · 4th January 2006, 03:44 PM

You will often hear people say that a Keris should have an odd number of luk to be considered as a good keris. If you ask them why, they most certainly don’t know why.
If we count the number of luk on the side of Indra we will see that there is more then on the side of Vrtra. Symbolically it represents that the Keris is a good keris as Indra has won the battle over Vrtra.The right hand side aspects (good) win over the left hand aspects (evil). If the number of lux was even this would not be the case and the keris would then be considered a bad keris.

Pusaka · 4th January 2006, 05:51 PM

If we remember that Indra is a war god the elephant he rides is a battle elephant. War elephants often had headdresses attached to the head and trunk. These armour headdresses often had sharp spikes attached. This would explain the spikes on the Gajah as being an elephant armour headdress.

nechesh · 4th January 2006, 06:09 PM

Pusaka, i think you need to get your mode of thinking about the keris and it's significance out of the sphere of battles and war. Your martial thinking is not leading you to a proper understanding of the keris. Your concepts of "good vs. evil" are very western. Yes, the keris is in the form of an edged weapon, but it's significance goes deeper than that.

MABAGANI · 4th January 2006, 06:36 PM

On the contrary, one can't describe unity without leaving the field of unity, so there are guide posts or symbols to point the way which appear dualistic depending on the state of mind. too esoteric, pm

Rick · 4th January 2006, 06:38 PM

Please explain this ricikan and greneng with your vedic war elephant theory .
There are a fairly high percentage of keris that lack detail in the ricikan from Jawa and the Celebes ; I have even seen Moro kris with plain ricikan .

nechesh · 4th January 2006, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

On the contrary, one can't describe unity without leaving the field of unity, so there are guide posts or symbols to point the way which appear dualistic depending on the state of mind. too esoteric, pm

I am not questioning the dualistic approach per se as being too western, just the absolute B&W, good & evil understanding. Those who follow the cult of Kali are not necessarily "evil", they merely have a different perspective. Yes, it is esoteric and complex....

MABAGANI · 4th January 2006, 07:30 PM

Yes, and if everyone has the potential to reach truth, I would not expect every answer or path to be the same, or every keris/kris to fit into the same mold...its an open forum for minds to write freely

Pusaka · 4th January 2006, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Pusaka, i think you need to get your mode of thinking about the keris and it's significance out of the sphere of battles and war. Your martial thinking is not leading you to a proper understanding of the keris. Your concepts of "good vs. evil" are very western. Yes, the keris is in the form of an edged weapon, but it's significance goes deeper than that.

Ok since you seam to think that everything I have said is wrong then maybe you can correct me? Don’t give me the “I don’t know but I know your wrong” treatment because it’s not smart.

Andrew · 4th January 2006, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Ok since you seam to think that everything I have said is wrong then maybe you can correct me? Don’t give me the “I don’t know but I know your wrong” treatment because it’s not smart.

A fair request, Pusaka. But a bit defensive as phrased. Let's all take a breath and try to share information in a non-confrontational manner.

Thanks.

punal · 4th January 2006, 08:16 PM

You know guys, there's no place on earth where you can find a forum like this, it's breath taking! and I'm loving it every moment of it.
Please continue, it's very educational specially for a newbies like me.

Nice thread!

Rick · 4th January 2006, 08:31 PM

Have all involved in this discussion read these articles ?

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/KERISANDNAGA.html

http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/origin.html

IMO they're very important to read and digest whether you agree with the conclusions or not .

I personally come to the conclusion however disappointing it may be that the keris and its true history are lost to time and that discussing and interpreting the meanings are like trying to hold an egg with no shell .

There is no B&W answer , only opinions and interpretations and these vary from each societal period that the keris has existed through right up to the present .

nechesh · 4th January 2006, 09:15 PM

Thanks Rick, Alan's articles are a very good read and i get something more out of them everytime i read them.
Pusaka, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, but too much of it at once could kill a man.

I am not trying to be confrontational when i suggest you might be on the wrong track. I clearly stated at the beginning of this thread what my position is on this subject and the true difficulties that lie in the path of understanding the symbolism that may (or may not) lie behind the keris. Also, much time has already be devoted to this subject and you may find some answers in the archives. But as Mabagani points out, paths are different and could lead to different answers. You seem to want your answers in black & white and i am afraid it's not so cut and dry. You also seem to have already reached your own conclusions on the subject and i'm not so sure you would be open to my theories on the subject. I can tell you that i don't believe the symbolism of the keris is about war and conflict. I would highly recommend you read the articles which Rick has linked to (a few times really

) and draw your own conclusions.

Pusaka · 4th January 2006, 09:53 PM

If you think I was suggesting that the keris symbolises war and conflict then you have misunderstood my message.
The keris (in my opinion) symbolises the interaction of two opposite forces. Balance, Order, unity. Man and a number of other things. I dont think that one answer can be universally applied to all keris because as you know there is too much diversity for that. All I was trying to do is give some answers. I have not already made up my decision about the symbolism, I am open to ideas and would love to hear others ideas on the matter.

Rick · 4th January 2006, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

If you think I was suggesting that the keris symbolises war and conflict then you have misunderstood my message.
The keris (in my opinion) symbolises the interaction of two opposite forces. Balance, Order, unity. Man and a number of other things. I dont think that one answer can be universally applied to all keris because as you know there is too much diversity for that. All I was trying to do is give some answers. I have not already made up my decision about the symbolism, I am open to ideas and would love to hear others ideas on the matter.

Have you read the two articles linked to in my post yet ?
Did you come into contact with the keris through silat ?

MABAGANI · 4th January 2006, 11:50 PM

Thanks Rick
I needed to read the links again too.
Some of the relationships are starting to fall into place regarding the Philippines as it related to the rest of ancient Southeast Asia, examples include an early written artifact dated from the 9th century in Luzon, to other Hindu statues traced to the 12th century and Ramayana versions in Mindanao. The study may show why "modern" keris motifs from an earlier period carry over into the kris origin with multiple designs on the same sword type.

Pusaka · 5th January 2006, 01:21 AM

I can see how a Keris could also be interpreted as a Naga. Actually it’s very interesting because if you remember what I said about the Tibetan Phurba also having the elephant and dragon motif there are some interesting findings. Tibet was heavily influenced by India as was Indonesia so could the Tibetan Phurba and the Indonesian Keris have developed from a Vedic Indian dagger?? The Tibetan Phurba its self represents a Naga as could the Keris. If you look at the photos of the Naga you will notice something very interesting, look at the posture. Back slightly bent, hands on stomach. In the case of a Naga the hands are usually holding a wish fulfilling jewel at the level of the navel. Same posture seen in Majapahit Keris. The upper body is human in likeness but the lower half is snake like. The bottom half could easily be a blade, straight or wavy. The early accounts of a blade with a human like handle could be Nagas. The fact that the blade is straight dose not mean that the dagger can not represent a Naga. What is interesting is that in Tibet they kept the blade straight but instead carved snakes on it. I think we will find the common source of both these blades in Vedic India. Note that the phurba is also sometimes made from Meteorite as is the Keris.

Rick · 5th January 2006, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I can see how a Keris could also be interpreted as a Naga. Actually it’s very interesting because if you remember what I said about the Tibetan Phurba also having the elephant and dragon motif there are some interesting findings. Tibet was heavily influenced by India as was Indonesia so could the Tibetan Phurba and the Indonesian Keris have developed from a Vedic Indian dagger?? The Tibetan Phurba its self represents a Naga as could the Keris. If you look at the photos of the Naga you will notice something very interesting, look at the posture. Back slightly bent, hands on stomach. In the case of a Naga the hands are usually holding a wish fulfilling jewel at the level of the navel. Same posture seen in Majapahit Keris. The upper body is human in likeness but the lower half is snake like. The bottom half could easily be a blade, straight or wavy. The early accounts of a blade with a human like handle could be Nagas. The fact that the blade is straight dose not mean that the dagger can not represent a Naga. What is interesting is that in Tibet they kept the blade straight but instead carved snakes on it. I think we will find the common source of both these blades in Vedic India. Note that the phurba is also sometimes made from Meteorite as is the Keris.

I guess you must have me on your ignore list .

You may construct any suit of clothes that you wish to fit this cultural icon Pusaka but it does not necessarily mean that they are the correct ones .

Rick · 5th January 2006, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

Thanks Rick
I needed to read the links again too.
Some of the relationships are starting to fall into place regarding the Philippines as it related to the rest of ancient Southeast Asia, examples include an early written artifact dated from the 9th century in Luzon, to other Hindu statues traced to the 12th century and Ramayana versions in Mindanao. The study may show why "modern" keris motifs from an earlier period carry over into the kris origin with multiple designs on the same sword type.

You're welcome Mabagani , there is good fodder in those two pieces ; stuff that every person trying to understand the keris should read and refer back to on occasion .
Mr. Maisey is a virtual treasure trove of information and keris lore .

A half century of research and study cannot be just tossed aside .

Antonio Cejunior · 5th January 2006, 04:40 AM

Thank you all gentlemen,

I think this is a very important element of reference that deserves a bit more of study anf of systemization.

The thread picked up speed and perhaps somebody like Battara or Fred Malibago could do something of a copy and paste for reason that some will know.

Thank you Pusaka for illustrating my photo.
This is absolutely fascinating.

Thank you all

BluErf · 5th January 2006, 01:55 PM

************************************************** ********
Rick Wrote:

Have all involved in this discussion read these articles ?

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/KERISANDNAGA.html

http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/origin.html

IMO they're very important to read and digest whether you agree with the conclusions or not .

I personally come to the conclusion however disappointing it may be that the keris and its true history are lost to time and that discussing and interpreting the meanings are like trying to hold an egg with no shell .

There is no B&W answer , only opinions and interpretations and these vary from each societal period that the keris has existed through right up to the present .
************************************************** ********

Just quoting Rick's post for the URLs.

Hey Pusaka, can't remember if I've welcomed you to the forum before, but just in case I haven't, welcome!

You have now experienced first-hand how controversial and emotionally-charged the keris discussions can get in this forum. Actually, I'd hazard that it's the same everywhere. Its the 'power' of keris, I guess.

You have many interesting ideas about the keris and you have a good ability to link images and symbols from different cultural settings, and draw connections between them, but what you are putting forth are hypotheses that have not been put through a rigorous academic/research process to substantiate them. And where it is a hypothesis, it may be good to state so, so that they are not taken as facts, especially by fellow members just starting out on the "Keris journey" (Yes, I liken collecting and studying Keris to an endless journey

).

The study of keris has been plagued by a serious lack of literature and historical records. In fact, many authors of the keris subject rely on 'informants' from this area (my home region - Southeast Asia - the proud home of the Keris and Kris!!

), who themselves learn about kerises from their elders or people around them. There is such a diversity of perceived meanings and names that it is impossible to say who is right or wrong. This phenomenon, like the myriad forms of kerises and krises, are a testament to the incredible diversity of this region. A feature or pamor of a keris can have one name in one village, and a different one in the next. And if you like, you could visit the Minang Kabau people in Central Sumatra. Just the number of keris hilt forms alone will bewilder anyone.

The keris has pre-Islamic origins, however, it is an interesting observation that it is mainly adopted in places where Islam took hold. Of course, we know about Bali and Lombok being Hinduistic and having the keris, but look at everywhere else - Java, Sumatra, Malay Peninsula, southern parts of Kalimantan, southern parts of Sulawesi, Moroland - its really kerises and krises being found in areas where the people are predominantly Muslim. Its not to say that kerises are Islamic in origin, but they are found where the Muslims are. And would a weapon adopted mostly in Muslim areas be called an Islamic weapon? I can't really say. It could be that the spread of the keris is not due to Islam, but because these areas happen to be on the major trade routes where both the keris and Religion could travel and reach. But I must admit this is my hypothesis.

And like what Rick and Vandoo has said -- the keris goes back a long time, and meanings and interpretations get changed, or even lost. One such example is the Jawa Demam hilt. It is representing a sick person, wearing a headdress (a 'tanjak'), squatting down, face lowered, with one arm wrapped around the body, holding a blanket over the other arm. We have seen examples that have carved 'eyes' at the tip of the head where the headdress is. The reason being that the headdress was re-interpreted as the nose, and therefore, the eyes must be beside it. Its just an example of people having lost the original understanding of what things meant.

You may be frustrated by the lack of straight answers, but this is the uncertainty you have to live with and deal with when studying and collecting the keris. Patience is very important. Good luck collecting, and keep learning.

Pusaka · 5th January 2006, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I guess you must have me on your ignore list .

You may construct any suit of clothes that you wish to fit this cultural icon Pusaka but it does not necessarily mean that they are the correct ones .

No I am not ignoring you. I Read the first one and will read the second one later when I get the time. In the first article there is no real evidence to prove that wavy blades were not around at the same time. Straight keris blades have always been more common then wavy blades. It dose not surprise me that the accounts are only of straight blades, and not many accounts as you can see.
As I said such wavy blades did exist in Vedic India so when India warriors arrived in Indonesia they would have had such weapons, may not be common but dose not mean there were none. Indonesians have two blades, one for common every day use and pusaka. I dont see why it could not have been the same back then.
Yes I know that there are hypothesis but the truth is this information is lost so you either forget about the whole thing and dont try to even understand the symbolism or you do your best to work it out. Someone mentioned that I am mixing in my Western way of thinking; actually I have studied eastern philosophy for some time now and know that everything I have said fits with an Eastern way of thinking. As many have said the keris is many things to many people and they dont all agree.

Personally I think that the problem will be solved with a trip to the Museum archives. To find the common Indian ancestor of these blades. I will do so when I get the time.

4th January 2006, 12:55 AM	#33
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	One other thing I would like to draw your attention to is that the Keris handle although it has been defaced it still has the original symbolic meaning, A man slightly bent over, hands resting on his stomach in meditation. Attached Images

4th January 2006, 07:55 AM	#37
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	Some meaning on Javanese Keris' Ricikan Hi all, First of all, I have to admit that I'm not an expert on Sundang (or anything else, I believe ), and I don't have all the answer. Just as Mr Antonio Cejunior said, the Ricikan (or 'lattice work' ) have meanings, at least in Java. I don't know whether this philosphical meanings may apply to other blades from other region like Bali, Bugis, Malay or Moro. But since many experts believe that keris' origin was from Java and spread-out to archipelago when Majapahit kingdom reign (ca. 12/13 C.), it might be helpful to study the Javanese keris, as an aid to understand the meaning of the form, in this case, the lattice work. Secondly, I have to warn all of the forumities that these kind of meanings are very subjectives, and may change from time-to-time, even from person-to-person, as 'pusaka' is always a private matters. This meaning usually passed by orally from generation to generation, so a good-old literature may not exist. The oldest reliable literature about the meaning of ricikan/dhapur keris is Serat Centhini, written ca. early 19 C. Other was written by Prince Karanggayam, ca. 16 C., but it's authenticity/reliability is questioned. So, the meaning I propose here is "as told by" the elders, and may not apply to as far as Majapahit era. Tracing the real meaning of it in Majapahit era could be very hard, if not impossible, since no reliable written evidence known about it exist. Now about the ricikans : The Elephant's trunk look-alike (pics.3 by Mr. Pusaka) called "sekar kacang" (sekar=flower, kacang=peanuts) or telale gajah (elephant's trunk). It's curled shape symbolize humble and man's obligation to worship The Almighty. Other non-curled shape called "Sekar Kacang Pogok" (broken) symbolize "dignity/proudness" and reserved for upper rank/class, as in dhapur Pasopati. The Upper class is (surely) expected to show their dignity and authorities to keep the obedience from his community, and thus, may maintain order. The Jalu Memet (Jalu=taji=cockspur, memet=hidden) is the thorn-like protruding in the 'armpit' of Sekar Kacang (in the 3rd pics posted by Pusaka). Symbolize "the man cockspur" (just see it inside your brief, ). It should keep hidden, and use it in "the right way at the right place and in the right time" (with the right partner, indeed). The teaching behind it may go on and on. The thorn-like protruding below the Jalu Memet called "lambe gajah" (lambe=bibir=lips). It symbolize the mouth, the teaching is simple : "watch your mouth/words" Now the other side.. The Greneng (the lattice works on the right part of 1st pics by Mr. Antonio). The Greneng consist of several ricikans : The very first, single thorn, (just after the blade meets the ganja/crosspiece, pics. 1) called "thingil", means small things, symbolize as it means, the teaching is 'do not ignore the small/trivial things, keep the open and keen mind' Pair of thorn just after the thingil called "ri pandan" = pandanus thorn. I don't know what it's meaning, yet Just after the ri pandan, came the "W" shape (or "M", if the tip pointed down) called "ron dha". It resembles the "dha" characters in javanese 'font'. Just after 1st ron dha, came the ri pandan again, then the ron dha again, then double thorn of "kanyut" resembling the "Ma" characters (some book may define Kanyut as a curled-tail ganja). The double "ron dha" assembly called "greneng sungsun"=double/stacked greneng. All characters could be read as "dhadha ma". Serat Centhini interpret this as "The Death (MAti) is came from/inside your chest (DHADHA)" According to Garret and Solyom, Yosopangarso (elder brother of Empu Djeno, the son of Empu Supowinangun) interpret it as "My Chest likes thunder." Other elders interpret it as "Lapang Dada", means patience/tolerance. The "Greneng" word itself means grumble/complaining. The whole assembly than could be interpreted as 'Live your life with spirit and patience, do not ignore the small things and do not grumble/complaining about your fate. We all will die after all" Javanese culture is a very unique. When new culture/value came, they may 'reinterpret' their existing culture according to the new culture rather then completly changing their customs. Thus, the old art/culture may still being kept, but with new "interpretation", as in wayang, keris and other cultural ceremonies. Wish may help. Best Regards, Boedhi Adhitya

4th January 2006, 03:44 PM	#40
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	You will often hear people say that a Keris should have an odd number of luk to be considered as a good keris. If you ask them why, they most certainly don’t know why. If we count the number of luk on the side of Indra we will see that there is more then on the side of Vrtra. Symbolically it represents that the Keris is a good keris as Indra has won the battle over Vrtra.The right hand side aspects (good) win over the left hand aspects (evil). If the number of lux was even this would not be the case and the keris would then be considered a bad keris. Attached Images Last edited by Pusaka; 4th January 2006 at 04:05 PM.

4th January 2006, 05:51 PM	#41
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	If we remember that Indra is a war god the elephant he rides is a battle elephant. War elephants often had headdresses attached to the head and trunk. These armour headdresses often had sharp spikes attached. This would explain the spikes on the Gajah as being an elephant armour headdress. Attached Images

4th January 2006, 06:38 PM	#44
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Please explain this ricikan and greneng with your vedic war elephant theory . There are a fairly high percentage of keris that lack detail in the ricikan from Jawa and the Celebes ; I have even seen Moro kris with plain ricikan . Attached Images

4th January 2006, 12:49 AM	#31
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	I like the book by O'ong Maryono, "Pencak Silat in the Indonesian archipelago".

4th January 2006, 05:08 AM	#35
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE QUESTION IS WHICH CAME FIRST THE KERIS OR THE KRIS, I THINK THE KERIS! THEN THE LARGER FORM KRIS EVOLVED FROM IT. DID IT EVOLVE TO A LARGER SIZE IN THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE THE ADVENT OF ISLAM OR AFTER. I WOULD GUESS THE KRIS WAS THERE BEFORE ISLAM AS THE TAILSMAN CARVINGS ARE UNLIKE ANYTHING FOUND WHERE ISLAM STARTED AND THE BELIEFS WOULD BE UNLIKELY TO HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY THE RELIGION. THE PEOPLE WHO CONVERTED TO ISLAM WOULD HAVE KEPT SOME OF THEIR TRADITIONS ALTHOUGH THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN MODIFIED BY THE NEW RELIGION AND LOST MANY OF THE MEANINGS THROUGH TIME. AS IN MOST OCEANIC SOCIETYS THERE WERE PROBABLY VERY FEW IRON OR STEEL TOOLS OR WEAPONS IN THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE THE COMING OF THE HINDU ,ISLAM, CHRISTIAN SPANISH AND AMERICAN POWERS. ONLY THE TOP MEN IN AREAS WHERE FORIGN TRADERS CAME WERE LIKELY TO HAVE HAD THEM. I SUSPECT THE MEANING OF THE ELEPHANT TRUNK AND OTHER CARVINGS WOULD BE MORE EASILY UNDERSTOOD BY GROUPS WHO HAVE NOT CHANGED RELIGION, CUSTOMS OR LIFE STYLE IF ANY SUCH GROUP EXHISTS. I DO THINK THAT THE HINDU BELIEFS AND ANSWERS PREDATE THE FULL DEVELOPMENT OF THE KRIS AND WOULD HAVE BEEN LOST UNDER THE RULES OF ISLAM. THE WAY OF MAKEING KRIS WOULD HAVE CONTINUED AS THAT WAS THE TRADITIONAL WAY THEY HAD ALWAYS BEEN MADE AND WHAT MADE THEM SUCH GOOD WEAPONS. I HAVE ALSO NOTICED SOME DAYAK SWORDS RESEMBLE SOME USED BY THE NAGA TRIBES IN INDIA AND BURMA SO INFLUENCE DEFINITELY CAME INTO THE REGION AT A EARLY TIME. DISCLAIMER (THESE ARE JUST MY THOUGHTS ON IT WITH NO HARD FACTS TO BACK IT UP BUT IT SEEMS LIKE THE LOGICAL WAY FOR THINGS TO HAVE HAPPENED.) MENTIONING ONE RELIGION IS RISKY AND I HAVE MENTIONED THREE I HOPE NO ONE TAKES OFFENCE AS NONE IS INTENDED.

4th January 2006, 01:06 PM	#38
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I think the Keris is older then the kris. Perhaps the Keris shape influenced the shaping of native long bladed bush knives so that gradually they developed and took on a more keris like appearance. I think that they are probably pre Islamic also. The general symbolism would be the same though.

4th January 2006, 01:45 PM	#39
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I think many of the vedic symbolisms involved with the keris are touch upon in this article http://www.yoga-age.com/articles/lightonvrtra.html

4th January 2006, 06:09 PM	#42
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Pusaka, i think you need to get your mode of thinking about the keris and it's significance out of the sphere of battles and war. Your martial thinking is not leading you to a proper understanding of the keris. Your concepts of "good vs. evil" are very western. Yes, the keris is in the form of an edged weapon, but it's significance goes deeper than that.

4th January 2006, 06:36 PM	#43
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	On the contrary, one can't describe unity without leaving the field of unity, so there are guide posts or symbols to point the way which appear dualistic depending on the state of mind. too esoteric, pm

4th January 2006, 07:30 PM	#46
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	Yes, and if everyone has the potential to reach truth, I would not expect every answer or path to be the same, or every keris/kris to fit into the same mold...its an open forum for minds to write freely

4th January 2006, 08:16 PM	#49
punal Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 91	You know guys, there's no place on earth where you can find a forum like this, it's breath taking! and I'm loving it every moment of it. Please continue, it's very educational specially for a newbies like me. Nice thread!

4th January 2006, 08:31 PM	#50
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Have all involved in this discussion read these articles ? http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/KERISANDNAGA.html http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/origin.html IMO they're very important to read and digest whether you agree with the conclusions or not . I personally come to the conclusion however disappointing it may be that the keris and its true history are lost to time and that discussing and interpreting the meanings are like trying to hold an egg with no shell . There is no B&W answer , only opinions and interpretations and these vary from each societal period that the keris has existed through right up to the present . Last edited by Rick; 4th January 2006 at 08:53 PM.

4th January 2006, 09:15 PM	#51
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Thanks Rick, Alan's articles are a very good read and i get something more out of them everytime i read them. Pusaka, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, but too much of it at once could kill a man. I am not trying to be confrontational when i suggest you might be on the wrong track. I clearly stated at the beginning of this thread what my position is on this subject and the true difficulties that lie in the path of understanding the symbolism that may (or may not) lie behind the keris. Also, much time has already be devoted to this subject and you may find some answers in the archives. But as Mabagani points out, paths are different and could lead to different answers. You seem to want your answers in black & white and i am afraid it's not so cut and dry. You also seem to have already reached your own conclusions on the subject and i'm not so sure you would be open to my theories on the subject. I can tell you that i don't believe the symbolism of the keris is about war and conflict. I would highly recommend you read the articles which Rick has linked to (a few times really ) and draw your own conclusions.

4th January 2006, 09:53 PM	#52
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	If you think I was suggesting that the keris symbolises war and conflict then you have misunderstood my message. The keris (in my opinion) symbolises the interaction of two opposite forces. Balance, Order, unity. Man and a number of other things. I dont think that one answer can be universally applied to all keris because as you know there is too much diversity for that. All I was trying to do is give some answers. I have not already made up my decision about the symbolism, I am open to ideas and would love to hear others ideas on the matter.

4th January 2006, 11:50 PM	#54
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	Thanks Rick I needed to read the links again too. Some of the relationships are starting to fall into place regarding the Philippines as it related to the rest of ancient Southeast Asia, examples include an early written artifact dated from the 9th century in Luzon, to other Hindu statues traced to the 12th century and Ramayana versions in Mindanao. The study may show why "modern" keris motifs from an earlier period carry over into the kris origin with multiple designs on the same sword type.

5th January 2006, 01:21 AM	#55
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I can see how a Keris could also be interpreted as a Naga. Actually it’s very interesting because if you remember what I said about the Tibetan Phurba also having the elephant and dragon motif there are some interesting findings. Tibet was heavily influenced by India as was Indonesia so could the Tibetan Phurba and the Indonesian Keris have developed from a Vedic Indian dagger?? The Tibetan Phurba its self represents a Naga as could the Keris. If you look at the photos of the Naga you will notice something very interesting, look at the posture. Back slightly bent, hands on stomach. In the case of a Naga the hands are usually holding a wish fulfilling jewel at the level of the navel. Same posture seen in Majapahit Keris. The upper body is human in likeness but the lower half is snake like. The bottom half could easily be a blade, straight or wavy. The early accounts of a blade with a human like handle could be Nagas. The fact that the blade is straight dose not mean that the dagger can not represent a Naga. What is interesting is that in Tibet they kept the blade straight but instead carved snakes on it. I think we will find the common source of both these blades in Vedic India. Note that the phurba is also sometimes made from Meteorite as is the Keris. Attached Images

5th January 2006, 04:40 AM	#58
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Thanks Thank you all gentlemen, I think this is a very important element of reference that deserves a bit more of study anf of systemization. The thread picked up speed and perhaps somebody like Battara or Fred Malibago could do something of a copy and paste for reason that some will know. Thank you Pusaka for illustrating my photo. This is absolutely fascinating. Thank you all

5th January 2006, 01:55 PM	#59
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	************************************************ **** Rick Wrote: Have all involved in this discussion read these articles ? http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/KERISANDNAGA.html http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/origin.html IMO they're very important to read and digest whether you agree with the conclusions or not . I personally come to the conclusion however disappointing it may be that the keris and its true history are lost to time and that discussing and interpreting the meanings are like trying to hold an egg with no shell . There is no B&W answer , only opinions and interpretations and these vary from each societal period that the keris has existed through right up to the present . ********************************************** ****** Just quoting Rick's post for the URLs. Hey Pusaka, can't remember if I've welcomed you to the forum before, but just in case I haven't, welcome! You have now experienced first-hand how controversial and emotionally-charged the keris discussions can get in this forum. Actually, I'd hazard that it's the same everywhere. Its the 'power' of keris, I guess. You have many interesting ideas about the keris and you have a good ability to link images and symbols from different cultural settings, and draw connections between them, but what you are putting forth are hypotheses that have not been put through a rigorous academic/research process to substantiate them. And where it is a hypothesis, it may be good to state so, so that they are not taken as facts, especially by fellow members just starting out on the "Keris journey" (Yes, I liken collecting and studying Keris to an endless journey ). The study of keris has been plagued by a serious lack of literature and historical records. In fact, many authors of the keris subject rely on 'informants' from this area (my home region - Southeast Asia - the proud home of the Keris and Kris!! ), who themselves learn about kerises from their elders or people around them. There is such a diversity of perceived meanings and names that it is impossible to say who is right or wrong. This phenomenon, like the myriad forms of kerises and krises, are a testament to the incredible diversity of this region. A feature or pamor of a keris can have one name in one village, and a different one in the next. And if you like, you could visit the Minang Kabau people in Central Sumatra. Just the number of keris hilt forms alone will bewilder anyone. The keris has pre-Islamic origins, however, it is an interesting observation that it is mainly adopted in places where Islam took hold. Of course, we know about Bali and Lombok being Hinduistic and having the keris, but look at everywhere else - Java, Sumatra, Malay Peninsula, southern parts of Kalimantan, southern parts of Sulawesi, Moroland - its really kerises and krises being found in areas where the people are predominantly Muslim. Its not to say that kerises are Islamic in origin, but they are found where the Muslims are. And would a weapon adopted mostly in Muslim areas be called an Islamic weapon? I can't really say. It could be that the spread of the keris is not due to Islam, but because these areas happen to be on the major trade routes where both the keris and Religion could travel and reach. But I must admit this is my hypothesis. And like what Rick and Vandoo has said -- the keris goes back a long time, and meanings and interpretations get changed, or even lost. One such example is the Jawa Demam hilt. It is representing a sick person, wearing a headdress (a 'tanjak'), squatting down, face lowered, with one arm wrapped around the body, holding a blanket over the other arm. We have seen examples that have carved 'eyes' at the tip of the head where the headdress is. The reason being that the headdress was re-interpreted as the nose, and therefore, the eyes must be beside it. Its just an example of people having lost the original understanding of what things meant. You may be frustrated by the lack of straight answers, but this is the uncertainty you have to live with and deal with when studying and collecting the keris. Patience is very important. Good luck collecting, and keep learning.