Research - Page 2

Bob A · 28th July 2015, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

What does it mean to collect?

Does it mean to pile a lot of weapons together, asking others about them - age or place of origin, and doing nothing yourself?

Or does it mean to ask others, and at the same time research the items yourself?

Being on a forum will mean, that you will be willing to share, at least some of your reaserch with the other members.

Earlier - years ago - there was a lot of different researches shared, but lately it seems as if the questions are more commen - why is that?

Jens

The internet has changed the face of collecting, and in fact made it both simpler and more complicated.

Definition: to collect
transitive verb
1
a : to bring together into one body or place
b : to gather or exact from a number of persons or sources <collect taxes>
c : to gather an accumulation of (objects) especially as a hobby <collects stamps>
2
: infer, deduce

I have been an inveterate collector since childhood. However, the scope and direction of my collecting has been increased by several orders of magnitude by internet access. It would literally have been impossible for me to locate and purchase a fraction of what I have, under the circumstances that prevailed when I was a child, six decades ago.

Jens' questions have a range of answers, of course, and they fit well with the dictionary definitions; in fact, it's surprising to see how the two definitions seem to apply to the arc of collection.

First of course must be the interest, soon followed by the amassing of data, in the form of the objects collected. Initially the focus is broad and uninformed.

Information about the collected objects follows, and is sought in different degrees according to the lights of the individual collector. It is hard to imagine anyone actually "collecting" by merely amassing objects; even the process of acquisition infers and requires gaining information. Asking others is in itself a process of research.

Collectors new to a field will gravitate toward sources of information like this site; in the olden times, a library would be involved, and lucky would be the collector who would have access to a fraction of what is available now, at a few keystrokes. For study in any depth, resources at the university level would probably have been necessary.

Sharing, or show-and-tell, takes on different forms depending on the experience of the collector. Simple questions from novices go far toward encouraging further and deeper exploration; examples from experienced collectors tend toward the erudite, and are welcomed by their peers and serve as examples to the novice.

The final question doubtless has a myriad of answers, but I would hazard a guess or two. The early appearance of this board brought together a group of experienced and knowledgeable students of the area of study; discussion flourished and topics of universal interest were researched and brought forth. This activity is not sustainable at such a level indefinitely, though it is probably cyclic. The fact that there now exists questioning at a lower level speaks to a broadening base of interest; new faces are finding the site, and the population of ethnographic weapons collectors is expanding.

I look on this as positive; I for one hope to learn much more about the objects I find of interest, and for those who have been in the game for a considerable period, this is an opportunity for their knowledge to be passed on.

I hope my attempt to answer the OP will not be taken as any sort of effrontery; the questions posed are worthy, and the various responses have thrown light on many facets of the nature of collecting, and the nature of research, and the nature of the personalities who form this assembly. As one who has limited exposure here, I trust my comments will be taken for what may be worthwhile within them.

Jens Nordlunde · 28th July 2015, 10:49 PM

Bob,
Collecting and researching can be seen from different sides, and it all comes to who the collector/researcher is.
To some, collecting is to get a few things, and ask on a forum what it is, so he can tell/boast to his friends.
Researching is more or less the same, as some buy a book or two and that is that, while others, when they have started buying books, never stop - and some even read the books.
Then there are the ones who do a real good job, they buy books, read them - and they go and see the places, photographing like mad men - I would at least.
Inbetween these collectors/researchers there are many shades. I can not say that the one type is better than the other, as each must deside for himself what he want, but I do hope that more of the collectors would start researching seriously.

sirupate · 29th July 2015, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

What does it mean to collect?

Does it mean to pile a lot of weapons together, asking others about them - age or place of origin, and doing nothing yourself?

Or does it mean to ask others, and at the same time research the items yourself?

Being on a forum will mean, that you will be willing to share, at least some of your reaserch with the other members.

Earlier - years ago - there was a lot of different researches shared, but lately it seems as if the questions are more commen - why is that?

Jens

Hi Jen, For me it is a mix of things, in the past not only collecting my specialty (kukri), but also going to the country origin on two specific researching trips in 2008 and 2009, whenever possible being taken around the museum's by the curator, and Nepalese historians, talking/communicating to British Gurkha Officers from WW2, Gurkhas from WW2 and Civilian Nepalese themselves, visiting the Museums in the country and being taken around by the curators, and museums in England especially the GM, where the then curator took me around giving me his insight into the kukri there, reading books and so on.
On subjects I don't know very much about and I can't afford to collect in any great quantity and travel to the country of origin for research, I rely on others, in terms of books, videos and forums like this to fill in the gaps.
All the best Simon

A. G. Maisey · 29th July 2015, 12:47 AM

Jens, I would like to expand just a little on the nature of research by providing a brief outline of my own history in gaining an understanding of my specific interest.

My collecting was started at age 12 with the gift of a small collection.

My early research was focused not on keris, but rather on the society, culture, art of Jawa. This focus was driven by educational requirements.

I was about 20 years old before I even knew that Stone existed:- bought a copy, read it. In fact I wore it out.

Before the 1980's there were not many books about keris, but what there was in English and in Indonesian, I acquired and read.

In 1980 I was accepted by Empu Suparman as his student. Empu Suparman at that time was the designated empu of the Karaton Surakarta. I continued as Empu Suparman's student until his passing in 1995. Prior to acceptance by Empu Suparman, I had already begun to experiment with the forging and carving of the keris.

Commencing in 1976 and continuing through to April of this year I have spent between 2 and 4 months every year in Indonesia, and most of the time I have spent in Jawa, Bali and Madura has been given over to visiting historic sites, and gathering information that in one way or another concerns the keris.

Also commencing in the 1980's, books of various qualities about the keris have frequently appeared. I have acquired many, if not most of these books, but regrettably I consider that all these books are deficient in some respects. "The World of the Javanese Keris" by Garrett and Bronwen Solyom remains the only keris book that I can wholeheartedly recommend.

Since about 1990 I have given a lot of attention to the old Javanese literature. I have been somewhat handicapped with this aspect of research because I have only been able to read those texts which have been romanised, and are available in English, Indonesian, or Javanese.

A couple of years ago I was fortunate enough to be able to examine and photograph some of the earliest keris to enter Europe; these keris are retained in the collections of several major European museums.

In short my understanding of the idea of "research" is to access every possible avenue that may contain even a snippet of information that concerns the keris of Jawa. Once the information has been collected it is then subjected to a process of logical analysis and conclusions can then be drawn.

Silver John · 29th July 2015, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

There were several "research" papers published here. Some were incredibly sophomoric and some had logical and factual holes size of Great Lakes.

There is evidently a huge difference between accumulating information for our own personal interest and conducting legitimate research.

Can anyone recommend a text that lays out the correct way to record and assess historical information and evidence? It would be a shame to spend years looking into a particular subject only to find that nothing one has uncovered is given credence by other collectors and researchers.

Jens Nordlunde · 29th July 2015, 05:16 PM

Alan,
What you have done, is what most would like to do - should do if possible.
It must have been fantastic, to read about some of the places, and to go there for research.
I am searching for a photo at the moment from Ramisseram, South east India, just acroo from Sri Lanka. Someone must have taken the photo, but so far I only have a very good drawing - and unfortunately it is not good enough. But I doubt very much that I will go to India to take the photo my self.
Jens

A. G. Maisey · 29th July 2015, 11:03 PM

The actual experience of time spent in Indonesia is far less wonderful than the telling of it Jens. I have made it a practice for more than 30 years to live at a low socio-economic level while I have been in Jawa. Although I consider this approach to be essential in order to understand indigenous thought processes, patterns and world view, it has never been easy.

VANDOO · 30th July 2015, 12:04 AM

RESEARCH 1. DIRECT OBSERVATION AND STUDY , WHERE ALL THE WRITTEN AND COLLECTED MATERIAL ORIGINATED.
2. READING BOOKS AND STUDYING ITEMS BROUGHT FROM THE DIRECT APPROACH.
TIME IS A FACTOR WITHOUT THE AID OF A TIME MACHINE ALL WE HAVE IS OLD OFTEN IMPERFECT DATA FROM #1 DATA COLLECTION TO GO ON.

ALL THE PEOPLE I LEARNED FROM WHEN I STARTED COLLECTING IN MY YOUTH HAVE PASSED LONG AGO. I STILL HAVE QUESTIONS I WOULD HAVE ASKED THEM TODAY BUT IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO DO SO. I ONLY REMEMBER BITS AND PIECES OF WHAT THEY TOLD ME IN THOSE DAYS.ITS MUCH THE SAME WITH BOOKS I HAVE READ IN THE PAST I KNOW I READ SOMETHING ABOUT A SUBJECT BUT NOT ENOUGH TO GIVE THE REFERENCE OR COMPLETE INFORMATION. THIS IS THE WAY ITS ALWAYS BEEN AND STILL IS TODAY QUITE A FEW VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE FORUM MEMBERS ARE NOW GONE THE LATEST BEING MATCHLOCK " WHAT A LOSS!"
I CONSIDER THE FORUM IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT GIVES AN OPPORTUNITY TO PRESERVE SOME OF THIS KNOWLEDGE BEFORE IT IS LOST. UNFORTUNATELY MANY SCHOLARS WILL NEVER BE AWARE OF THE FORUM TODAY OR WILL CHOOSE NOT TO CONTRIBUTE. THE REASONS ARE THEY PLAN TO PUBLISH WHICH OFTEN NEVER GET'S FINISHED OR THEY CONSIDER KNOWLEDGE IS POWER AND DO NOT WISH TO SHARE OR GIVE FOR FREE WHAT THEY HAVE WORKED FOR OR BEEN GIVEN.
THE FORUM IS A GROWING RESOURCE AND IS DOING AN EXCELLENT JOB OF COMPILING DATA. THERE IS CHAFF ALONG WITH THE GRAIN BUT MANY KERNELS OF KNOWLEDGE CAN BE FOUND AMONG IT. THE FORUM IS A PLACE FOR SHOW AND TELL "LOOK WHAT I GOT !" , " WHAT IS THIS?" AS WELL AS A PLACE TO DEPOSIT DATA, FACTS AND EXAMPLES. I CAN PARROT WHAT I HAVE READ FROM THE FEW REFERENCES ON FIJI CLUBS FOR INSTANCE BUT THAT IS JUST ARRANGING DATA. I CONTRIBUTE NEW DATA WHEN I POST PICTURES OF LOTS OF EXAMPLES OLD OR RECENT THAT ARE NOT IN THE OLD REFERENCES. THE FACT THAT IT IS ALL IN ONE PLACE HELPS SPEED UP RESEARCH.
LIFE IS SHORT SO THE TIME TAKEN FINDING ALL RESOURCES IS IMPORTANT. FINDING ALL BOOKS READING THEM TRAVELING TO SEE IMPORTANT COLLECTIONS ALL TAKES TIME AND IS USUALLY ONLY COVERING GROUND ALREADY THOROUGHLY GONE OVER. FEW PEOPLE COME ALONG WITH THE NATURAL ABILITY TO DRAW EVERYTHING TOGETHER AND MAKE SENSE OF IT IN ONE LIFETIME. HOPEFULLY IN FUTURE WHEN ALL THE PIECES ARE DEPOSITED IN THE BOX SUCH A ONE WILL BE ABLE TO FIND THEM HERE ON THE FORUM AND OTHER PLACES AND PUT THE PIECES TOGETHER.
I THINK TODAY THERE ARE MORE DEALERS THAN COLLECTORS MOSTLY DUE TO T.V. PROGRAMS SOME WILL NO DOUBT USE THE FORUM FOR INFORMATION AND ONLY TAKE AND NEVER CONTRIBUTE. THE MAIN GOAL OF A TRUE DEALER IS MONEY NOT STUFF,INFORMATION IS ONLY NECESSARY TO GET THE BEST PRICE. THEN THERE IS THE COLLECTOR DEALER WHO SELLS TO COLLECT AND LIKES STUFF AND ITS HISTORY. THE HARD CORE COLLECTOR WHO LIKES, STUDIES AND KEEPS EVERYTHING. TO EACH HIS OWN

A ONE WORD SEARCH ON THE COMPUTER BRINGS MULTIPLE SOURCES OF DATA ON THE FORUM OR GOOGLE MAKING IT FASTER AND EASIER.
WITH MY PARTICULAR VIEW AND STYLE I DON'T FIND DEBATE WORTHWHILE AS IT USUALLY ENDS UP " YES IT IS!", "NO ITS NOT!" OVER AND OVER. SO WHEN I FIND I AM IN ONE I JUST STATE MY DATA MY VIEWS AND WHY AND MOVE ON REGARDLESS OF IF I AGREE OR NOT.

DATA GATHERING, QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS, SHOW AND TELL ARE ALL PART OF THE REASON FOR THE FORUM BUT FUN, COMRADERY AND ENCOURAGING NEW COLLECTORS ARE ALSO VERY IMPORTANT.

Miguel · 2nd August 2015, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Interesting thread Jens...

I guess in this age of closing library's being replaced by the internet as "The learning medium." for many, It shouldn't surprise me that for some the full scope of research & indeed the first step of research is to post something & says "whats this"

I guess some are happy just to collect & be told what something is, others get part of the pleasure of collecting from researching , I guess that's those amongst us who have a thirst for knowledge not just a plain possession.

Spiral

Hi Spiral,
I think you have said it all and I entirely agree with you.
Regards
Miguel

29th July 2015, 05:16 PM	#36
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Alan, What you have done, is what most would like to do - should do if possible. It must have been fantastic, to read about some of the places, and to go there for research. I am searching for a photo at the moment from Ramisseram, South east India, just acroo from Sri Lanka. Someone must have taken the photo, but so far I only have a very good drawing - and unfortunately it is not good enough. But I doubt very much that I will go to India to take the photo my self. Jens Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 29th July 2015 at 05:31 PM.

28th July 2015, 10:49 PM	#32
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Bob, Collecting and researching can be seen from different sides, and it all comes to who the collector/researcher is. To some, collecting is to get a few things, and ask on a forum what it is, so he can tell/boast to his friends. Researching is more or less the same, as some buy a book or two and that is that, while others, when they have started buying books, never stop - and some even read the books. Then there are the ones who do a real good job, they buy books, read them - and they go and see the places, photographing like mad men - I would at least. Inbetween these collectors/researchers there are many shades. I can not say that the one type is better than the other, as each must deside for himself what he want, but I do hope that more of the collectors would start researching seriously.

29th July 2015, 12:47 AM	#34
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Jens, I would like to expand just a little on the nature of research by providing a brief outline of my own history in gaining an understanding of my specific interest. My collecting was started at age 12 with the gift of a small collection. My early research was focused not on keris, but rather on the society, culture, art of Jawa. This focus was driven by educational requirements. I was about 20 years old before I even knew that Stone existed:- bought a copy, read it. In fact I wore it out. Before the 1980's there were not many books about keris, but what there was in English and in Indonesian, I acquired and read. In 1980 I was accepted by Empu Suparman as his student. Empu Suparman at that time was the designated empu of the Karaton Surakarta. I continued as Empu Suparman's student until his passing in 1995. Prior to acceptance by Empu Suparman, I had already begun to experiment with the forging and carving of the keris. Commencing in 1976 and continuing through to April of this year I have spent between 2 and 4 months every year in Indonesia, and most of the time I have spent in Jawa, Bali and Madura has been given over to visiting historic sites, and gathering information that in one way or another concerns the keris. Also commencing in the 1980's, books of various qualities about the keris have frequently appeared. I have acquired many, if not most of these books, but regrettably I consider that all these books are deficient in some respects. "The World of the Javanese Keris" by Garrett and Bronwen Solyom remains the only keris book that I can wholeheartedly recommend. Since about 1990 I have given a lot of attention to the old Javanese literature. I have been somewhat handicapped with this aspect of research because I have only been able to read those texts which have been romanised, and are available in English, Indonesian, or Javanese. A couple of years ago I was fortunate enough to be able to examine and photograph some of the earliest keris to enter Europe; these keris are retained in the collections of several major European museums. In short my understanding of the idea of "research" is to access every possible avenue that may contain even a snippet of information that concerns the keris of Jawa. Once the information has been collected it is then subjected to a process of logical analysis and conclusions can then be drawn.

29th July 2015, 11:03 PM	#37
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	The actual experience of time spent in Indonesia is far less wonderful than the telling of it Jens. I have made it a practice for more than 30 years to live at a low socio-economic level while I have been in Jawa. Although I consider this approach to be essential in order to understand indigenous thought processes, patterns and world view, it has never been easy.

30th July 2015, 12:04 AM	#38
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	RESEARCH 1. DIRECT OBSERVATION AND STUDY , WHERE ALL THE WRITTEN AND COLLECTED MATERIAL ORIGINATED. 2. READING BOOKS AND STUDYING ITEMS BROUGHT FROM THE DIRECT APPROACH. TIME IS A FACTOR WITHOUT THE AID OF A TIME MACHINE ALL WE HAVE IS OLD OFTEN IMPERFECT DATA FROM #1 DATA COLLECTION TO GO ON. ALL THE PEOPLE I LEARNED FROM WHEN I STARTED COLLECTING IN MY YOUTH HAVE PASSED LONG AGO. I STILL HAVE QUESTIONS I WOULD HAVE ASKED THEM TODAY BUT IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO DO SO. I ONLY REMEMBER BITS AND PIECES OF WHAT THEY TOLD ME IN THOSE DAYS.ITS MUCH THE SAME WITH BOOKS I HAVE READ IN THE PAST I KNOW I READ SOMETHING ABOUT A SUBJECT BUT NOT ENOUGH TO GIVE THE REFERENCE OR COMPLETE INFORMATION. THIS IS THE WAY ITS ALWAYS BEEN AND STILL IS TODAY QUITE A FEW VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE FORUM MEMBERS ARE NOW GONE THE LATEST BEING MATCHLOCK " WHAT A LOSS!" I CONSIDER THE FORUM IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT GIVES AN OPPORTUNITY TO PRESERVE SOME OF THIS KNOWLEDGE BEFORE IT IS LOST. UNFORTUNATELY MANY SCHOLARS WILL NEVER BE AWARE OF THE FORUM TODAY OR WILL CHOOSE NOT TO CONTRIBUTE. THE REASONS ARE THEY PLAN TO PUBLISH WHICH OFTEN NEVER GET'S FINISHED OR THEY CONSIDER KNOWLEDGE IS POWER AND DO NOT WISH TO SHARE OR GIVE FOR FREE WHAT THEY HAVE WORKED FOR OR BEEN GIVEN. THE FORUM IS A GROWING RESOURCE AND IS DOING AN EXCELLENT JOB OF COMPILING DATA. THERE IS CHAFF ALONG WITH THE GRAIN BUT MANY KERNELS OF KNOWLEDGE CAN BE FOUND AMONG IT. THE FORUM IS A PLACE FOR SHOW AND TELL "LOOK WHAT I GOT !" , " WHAT IS THIS?" AS WELL AS A PLACE TO DEPOSIT DATA, FACTS AND EXAMPLES. I CAN PARROT WHAT I HAVE READ FROM THE FEW REFERENCES ON FIJI CLUBS FOR INSTANCE BUT THAT IS JUST ARRANGING DATA. I CONTRIBUTE NEW DATA WHEN I POST PICTURES OF LOTS OF EXAMPLES OLD OR RECENT THAT ARE NOT IN THE OLD REFERENCES. THE FACT THAT IT IS ALL IN ONE PLACE HELPS SPEED UP RESEARCH. LIFE IS SHORT SO THE TIME TAKEN FINDING ALL RESOURCES IS IMPORTANT. FINDING ALL BOOKS READING THEM TRAVELING TO SEE IMPORTANT COLLECTIONS ALL TAKES TIME AND IS USUALLY ONLY COVERING GROUND ALREADY THOROUGHLY GONE OVER. FEW PEOPLE COME ALONG WITH THE NATURAL ABILITY TO DRAW EVERYTHING TOGETHER AND MAKE SENSE OF IT IN ONE LIFETIME. HOPEFULLY IN FUTURE WHEN ALL THE PIECES ARE DEPOSITED IN THE BOX SUCH A ONE WILL BE ABLE TO FIND THEM HERE ON THE FORUM AND OTHER PLACES AND PUT THE PIECES TOGETHER. I THINK TODAY THERE ARE MORE DEALERS THAN COLLECTORS MOSTLY DUE TO T.V. PROGRAMS SOME WILL NO DOUBT USE THE FORUM FOR INFORMATION AND ONLY TAKE AND NEVER CONTRIBUTE. THE MAIN GOAL OF A TRUE DEALER IS MONEY NOT STUFF,INFORMATION IS ONLY NECESSARY TO GET THE BEST PRICE. THEN THERE IS THE COLLECTOR DEALER WHO SELLS TO COLLECT AND LIKES STUFF AND ITS HISTORY. THE HARD CORE COLLECTOR WHO LIKES, STUDIES AND KEEPS EVERYTHING. TO EACH HIS OWN A ONE WORD SEARCH ON THE COMPUTER BRINGS MULTIPLE SOURCES OF DATA ON THE FORUM OR GOOGLE MAKING IT FASTER AND EASIER. WITH MY PARTICULAR VIEW AND STYLE I DON'T FIND DEBATE WORTHWHILE AS IT USUALLY ENDS UP " YES IT IS!", "NO ITS NOT!" OVER AND OVER. SO WHEN I FIND I AM IN ONE I JUST STATE MY DATA MY VIEWS AND WHY AND MOVE ON REGARDLESS OF IF I AGREE OR NOT. DATA GATHERING, QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS, SHOW AND TELL ARE ALL PART OF THE REASON FOR THE FORUM BUT FUN, COMRADERY AND ENCOURAGING NEW COLLECTORS ARE ALSO VERY IMPORTANT.