Schiavona - The one that got away

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Philip

Hey, Victrix, I really dig that broadsword! Especially with the inscription on the blade! Do you have a pic of the entire thing? (I know this kind of sword is wandering from the topic of this thread, but I can't resist...

The topic of the thread started out as "swords you didn't get or lost" and only thereafter got changed to be more "Schiavona-centric" so in that sense I feel like it is certainly within the scope of the thread.

[schiavonafleck]

Hello wewecow!
I am the owner of that schiavone and I know exactly what you are talking about! I’ve had experiences like this when your heart aches because you failed to buy the schiavona you wanted!
I deal exclusively with schiavona swords because they bind me to the history of my people! I am from Croatia where these swords were widely used and probably produced (baskets) from the 16th to the 18th century. (Dalmatia and northern Adriatic)
I am sure that in time there will be a beautiful schiavona that will belong to you! )
This is my collection! )

[ulfberth]

That is a beautiful collection of good Schiavona's !
In my opinion the schiavona is under rated on today's market, if compared to the basket hilt swords than schiavona's are realy under priced, after al they are mostly of the same period.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[werecow]

Very nice collection indeed! Quite a lot of variation in a single sword type, too. Do they handle as differently as they look?
The one that started the thread would still be my favorite in terms of looks. There's just something about that blade.

Can't win them all, but perhaps one day I'll find something comparable. }|:o)

[schiavonafleck]

Thanks ulfberth and werecow!
The price of schiavona swords has been rising quite a bit in the last few years. Schiavona swords generally do not have a standard balance. Some are very upbeat while others with wide and long blades are quite difficult to handle. But generally great moving swords that perfectly protect the fists, and of course the perfect look.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by schiavonafleck

Hello wewecow!
I am the owner of that schiavone and I know exactly what you are talking about! I’ve had experiences like this when your heart aches because you failed to buy the schiavona you wanted!
I deal exclusively with schiavona swords because they bind me to the history of my people! I am from Croatia where these swords were widely used and probably produced (baskets) from the 16th to the 18th century. (Dalmatia and northern Adriatic)
I am sure that in time there will be a beautiful schiavona that will belong to you! )
This is my collection! )

Wow! That is a MAGNIFICENT collection, and right you are to be focused on these beautiful swords which indeed proudly represent your heritage. It has always been my understanding that these were widely held to have been used by the palace guards in Venice for the Doge, and that these personnel were typically Croatian. The basket hilts evolved from simpler S guard sword hilts from Hungary, where there were diplomatic and cultural connections of long standing. In the 18th century the pandours of Austro-Hungary who were irregular forces comprised of mostly Croatians and Hungarians. Many of the cavalry sabers were Hungarian, but as far as I have known, they did not use schiavona.

This is despite the fact that the schiavona was widely used often by other Italian forces, with other incidental cases elsewhere. It was once thought that the schiavona was the inspiration for the Scottish basket hilt, but this was thoroughly disproven, though they are both wonderfully attractive forms.

I am curious about the production of the hilts in Croatia.

It seems the lineage and evolution of the hilt form ,especially some of the components have their own evolutionary line. The familiar 'cats head' pommel seems to have existed with Slavonic soldiers in the 14thc. By into the 15th c. in Hungary there were rectangular pommels with notable boss at center. The recurved crossguard and evolving other bars (including the leaf shapes over ricasso) were evolving in S. Germany (which often it seems were close to developments in N. Italy).
It would seem these early forms of 'schiavona' style hilts were evolving by 16th into early 17th c. referencing S. German styles of course becoming more widely used.

The term 'schiavona' is often referred to a painting of 1510-1512 (by Titian) called "the Woman from Dalmatia" (Croatian or Slavonic, which is more linguistically applied), and which might explain the application of the term to the sword. This was because of its primary association with the Croatian guards of the Doges place in Venice. As always, colloquial terms for things cover a wide, often tenuous berth.

Years ago, I too wanted just a good example of a schiavona, my opportunity came when through a good deal of horse trading, I got the example attached here. Its asymmetrical feel in the hilt was intriguing, and has a cavalry style backsword blade as popular in mid to late 18th c. The blade is inscribed VIVA Ferdinand IV of the Two Sicilies who was deposed by the Sicilian constitution of 1812. He was reinstated as king of the Two Sicilies (Sicily and Naples) in 1816, and the kingdom prevailed until Italian unification in 1861.

I feel this is likely an example used by loyalists in the post 1812 period.

I think one of the most exciting examples to find would be with the CX marking (Council of Ten of Venice).

[urbanspaceman]

I've just bought a Pappenheim rapier so I've got no money left for a while unfortunately; I also am in love with these swords

[werecow]

I just bought a Walloon sword, so I'm probably tapped for the rest of the year as well.

But I believe links to active auctions are not allowed on the forums.

[werecow]

Speaking of which, this one was on auction earlier today. Presumably it's been sold now so I hope that's OK. It looks a little odd to me (though it's got one of those broad fullered blades that tickle my fancy!), but I still have lots to learn about these so I'm curious about your opinions. Aside from the wire wrap, is it maybe a composite of old, or even old and new parts? That pommel looks more like something belonging on a swept hilt rapier, and something about the basket looks a bit oddly proportioned to me, as if it's too wide for its length.

[urbanspaceman]

I'm not even remotely expert in judging authenticity; Dirk is the man to ask.
However, I have to agree with you that the grip has been rebound and the pommel replaced, beyond that it seems ok to me.
My preference for schiavona blade types is the wide broadsword with multiple fullers, but failing that, this wide hollow is agreeable.

[Victrix]

Yes in the 19thC the Victorians were avid collectors of anything which was displayed in the stately homes for visitors to view. This included antique arms and armour and sometimes unscrupulous dealers would fashion ”composites” of parts to sell on to unsuspecting collectors. This includes schiavonas which were probably considered exotic collectibles, and some are composites. At the same time part of the charm is the great diversity and artistic beauty of schiavonas where they are all different. This particular item may be a composite but also looks Spanish as the grip ends in ferrules and with the wide fullered blade. The pommel looks baroque and may be a replacement but may also have been added to suit local tastes.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I'm not even remotely expert in judging authenticity; Dirk is the man to ask.
However, I have to agree with you that the grip has been rebound and the pommel replaced, beyond that it seems ok to me.
.

Agreed. Re-wrapping of grips can be expected due to wear or damage during service life, especially considering that the norm for the original configurations was leather over cord winding. The wire binding is a bit out-of-character but understandable considering the long service life of this sword type (the hilt on this example looks to be an earlier style as well). That pommel is the most jarring mismatch, and I would be suspicious of the piece from that standpoint alone.

[schiavonafleck]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Wow! That is a MAGNIFICENT collection, and right you are to be focused on these beautiful swords which indeed proudly represent your heritage. It has always been my understanding that these were widely held to have been used by the palace guards in Venice for the Doge, and that these personnel were typically Croatian. The basket hilts evolved from simpler S guard sword hilts from Hungary, where there were diplomatic and cultural connections of long standing. In the 18th century the pandours of Austro-Hungary who were irregular forces comprised of mostly Croatians and Hungarians. Many of the cavalry sabers were Hungarian, but as far as I have known, they did not use schiavona.

This is despite the fact that the schiavona was widely used often by other Italian forces, with other incidental cases elsewhere. It was once thought that the schiavona was the inspiration for the Scottish basket hilt, but this was thoroughly disproven, though they are both wonderfully attractive forms.

I am curious about the production of the hilts in Croatia.

It seems the lineage and evolution of the hilt form ,especially some of the components have their own evolutionary line. The familiar 'cats head' pommel seems to have existed with Slavonic soldiers in the 14thc. By into the 15th c. in Hungary there were rectangular pommels with notable boss at center. The recurved crossguard and evolving other bars (including the leaf shapes over ricasso) were evolving in S. Germany (which often it seems were close to developments in N. Italy).
It would seem these early forms of 'schiavona' style hilts were evolving by 16th into early 17th c. referencing S. German styles of course becoming more widely used.

The term 'schiavona' is often referred to a painting of 1510-1512 (by Titian) called "the Woman from Dalmatia" (Croatian or Slavonic, which is more linguistically applied), and which might explain the application of the term to the sword. This was because of its primary association with the Croatian guards of the Doges place in Venice. As always, colloquial terms for things cover a wide, often tenuous berth.

Years ago, I too wanted just a good example of a schiavona, my opportunity came when through a good deal of horse trading, I got the example attached here. Its asymmetrical feel in the hilt was intriguing, and has a cavalry style backsword blade as popular in mid to late 18th c. The blade is inscribed VIVA Ferdinand IV of the Two Sicilies who was deposed by the Sicilian constitution of 1812. He was reinstated as king of the Two Sicilies (Sicily and Naples) in 1816, and the kingdom prevailed until Italian unification in 1861.

I feel this is likely an example used by loyalists in the post 1812 period.

I think one of the most exciting examples to find would be with the CX marking (Council of Ten of Venice).

Jim McDougall, thank you for the nice introductory words. I am also studying possible blacksmiths who worked in Dalmatia/Croatia. On some baskets of schiavonas are visible inscriptions in Croatian Cyrillic used in Dalmatia in that period. "Grgur" and "Sava" were signed, which I am sure are names from the Croatian area. The "M-C" inscription on the baskets also appears, but I'm not sure where it comes from. If I understood correctly it is your schiavona that you attached!? A very beautiful example with historical important blade! I have this one of mine with "GRGUR" inscription.(you can see in the middle photo)

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by schiavonafleck

Jim McDougall, thank you for the nice introductory words. I am also studying possible blacksmiths who worked in Dalmatia/Croatia. On some baskets of schiavonas are visible inscriptions in Croatian Cyrillic used in Dalmatia in that period. "Grgur" and "Sava" were signed, which I am sure are names from the Croatian area. The "M-C" inscription on the baskets also appears, but I'm not sure where it comes from. If I understood correctly it is your schiavona that you attached!? A very beautiful example with historical important blade! I have this one of mine with "GRGUR" inscription.(you can see in the middle photo)

Thank you! Yes, it is indeed my sword which I acquired some years ago. While I simply wanted an example, I had not anticipated the depth of the history associated with this one. While schiavona are not typically thought of in the 'Napoleonic' period, it is known they found service in numerous circumstances outside the Italian regions.

It is interesting that examples as you note have Croatian names etc. but I would have thought these were inscriptions associated with the individuals using them in the service of the Doge. I honestly had not thought of the hilts being fashioned in Croatia, and just as many cutlers assembled swords throughout Styria and other areas it is probably hard to find reliable records of these shops.

Thank you so much for responding and the kind words.

Best regards
Jim

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by werecow

Speaking of which, this one was on auction earlier today. Presumably it's been sold now so I hope that's OK. It looks a little odd to me (though it's got one of those broad fullered blades that tickle my fancy!), but I still have lots to learn about these so I'm curious about your opinions. Aside from the wire wrap, is it maybe a composite of old, or even old and new parts? That pommel looks more like something belonging on a swept hilt rapier, and something about the basket looks a bit oddly proportioned to me, as if it's too wide for its length.

This is an example of a composite schiavona in the collection of the Swedish Royal Armoury. The pommel, guard and blade are each from different centuries! The sword appears in White Arms of the Royal Armoury (1984) by Lena Nordström, in the section on ”Combination weapons, Miscellaneous, Fakes.”

[werecow]

I saw this on catawiki last week and the combination of the typical cats head pommel and the simple half basket hilt caught my eye. I'm guessing the blade and hilt were a later pairing. Not a combination familiar to me and the blade's shoulders don't seem to fit. A composite? Or something else?

[Philip]

Looks like a recently-assembled composite to me. There is nothing remotely schiavona-ish (schiavonesque? schiavonoid?) about the basket guard. The fit of guard to blade looks clumsy. The peening of the tang to the pommel looks new, the metal is bright with no sign of corrosion or patina to the iron.

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by Philip

Looks like a recently-assembled composite to me. There is nothing remotely schiavona-ish (schiavonesque? schiavonoid?) about the basket guard. The fit of guard to blade looks clumsy. The peening of the tang to the pommel looks new, the metal is bright with no sign of corrosion or patina to the iron.

I agree with Philip, the pommel is from a shiavona, the blade possibly and the guard is from a walloon type or German type veld degen.
The guard is 18th c but indeed composit and recently peened.

[urbanspaceman]

Strange, I didn't see that on Catawiki.
Ugly marriage.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Strange, I didn't see that on Catawiki.
Ugly marriage.

Over here :o)


.

[werecow]

I see my post was edited... I don't mind as it wasn't important anyway. But I'm not sure I understand why? I linked to an auction that was closed.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by werecow

I see my post was edited... I don't mind as it wasn't important anyway. But I'm not sure I understand why? I linked to an auction that was closed.

Perhaps the moderator was not aware that the auction had closed before you posted it. I understand that it is alright to post about auctions already dead and gone, not live upcoming ones.

[fernando]

The one item was sold but the site linked was open for active sales; and the sword in question was already shown in post #46.



.

[ulfberth]

These belong also in the category " used to be" had to let them go to be able to move on to other things...

[Victrix]

What were the marks on the schiavona with the plain pommel? Feel free to let me know if you are about to let go of other items.

[ulfberth]

the classic Venetian arsenal stamps, that one was a munitiong grade schiavona

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

the classic Venetian arsenal stamps, that one was a munitiong grade schiavona

That’s what I thought. I like it! The other two are nice too.

[ulfberth]

This one got away years ago and besides the high quality gold inlay it had a nice Toledo blade to.

[werecow]

They all tickle my fancy ulfberth, especially the rapier and the middle schiavona!

[Philip]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

This one got away years ago and besides the high quality gold inlay it had a nice Toledo blade to.

Oh my, I sure wish I was around when you let go of it! Not only the blade, but the inlaid hilt is gorgeous. I like inlay work so much better than the damascene or overlay work because the designs are more precise and durable.