iron cuirass

[estcrh]

There is one of these cuirasses for sale at auction currently, since there is some sort of silly rule about posting pictures of items that are for sale on the forum, if anyone wants information on it send me a message.

[Iain]

I should also mention the image illustrates a cavalryman of the Moundang people. One of the groups within the Mandara region of north Cameroon.

[Iain]

Well after quite a few years I am finally in possession of one of these. I need to do a proper photo session in the coming weeks and it needs a little clean on the inside of the cuirass but I thought some might enjoy a quick picture of it enjoying its new home with an old takouba.

[colin henshaw]

Originally Posted by Iain

Well after quite a few years I am finally in possession of one of these. I need to do a proper photo session in the coming weeks and it needs a little clean on the inside of the cuirass but I thought some might enjoy a quick picture of it enjoying its new home with an old takouba.

A good piece Iain, well done. In fact it would look nice with my chainmail hauberk

Looking forward to more pics...

[Iain]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

A good piece Iain, well done. In fact it would look nice with my chainmail hauberk

Looking forward to more pics...

Thanks Colin, a maille hauberk is another thing on my long term list. Not easy to find one of the good old riveted ones!

I'll hopefully have time and good enough light this weekend for an extended photo session.

Hard to date these things precisely but this example shows quite a lot of age to the iron, surprisingly large as well.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Iain

Well after quite a few years I am finally in possession of one of these. I need to do a proper photo session in the coming weeks and it needs a little clean on the inside of the cuirass but I thought some might enjoy a quick picture of it enjoying its new home with an old takouba.

Iain, I am glad to see that I am not the only one here who invests in obscure armors!!

[TVV]

Very nice Iain, congratulations. When it comes to mail hauberks, my understanding is that they were imported to the Sahel from the Middle Eats and Europe, and it may be tricky to find a North African one unless there is some very solid provenance.

Teodor

[Iain]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Iain, I am glad to see that I am not the only one here who invests in obscure armors!!

Thanks Eric, this is my first venture into the armour side of things, I guess for many armour doesn't evoke the same reaction as a sword.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by TVV

Very nice Iain, congratulations. When it comes to mail hauberks, my understanding is that they were imported to the Sahel from the Middle Eats and Europe, and it may be tricky to find a North African one unless there is some very solid provenance.

Teodor

Hi Teodor,

most maille in the Sahel was sourced from Egypt, other Ottoman territories, Persia or of course to some degree Europe. Bivar's Nigerian Panoply illustrates this variety nicely. So you are of course correct, by and large maille wasn't made locally and what was, at least in the case of Sudan they were making butted and not riveted maille as I recall.

Managed to take some more images, still not the best I'm afraid but the weather is playing up and not being conducive to photo sessions!

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Teodor,

most maille in the Sahel was sourced from Egypt, other Ottoman territories, Persia or of course to some degree Europe. Bivar's Nigerian Panoply illustrates this variety nicely. So you are of course correct, by and large maille wasn't made locally and what was, at least in the case of Sudan they were making butted and not riveted maille as I recall.

Managed to take some more images, still not the best I'm afraid but the weather is playing up and not being conducive to photo sessions!

Thats correct from what I have read and seen. Sudanese mail was butted, Khedival Egypt imported split ring mail from England in the mid to late 1800s. I believe all riveted mail would have been imported.

Good photos anyway.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Thats correct from what I have read and seen. Sudanese mail was butted, Khedival Egypt imported split ring mail from England in the mid to late 1800s. I believe all riveted mail would have been imported.

Good photos anyway.

Thanks, I'll do some detailed images of the riveting and materials when I get a chance.

I had thought there was a sketch in a period account showing one of these. However having looked in Barth, Denham and Nachtigal I'm drawing a blank.

[TVV]

Iain,

I believe the image you are looking for was originally made by Denham, but you can find it also in Spring or in Cairns' little book "The African Knights".

Teodor

[Iain]

Originally Posted by TVV

Iain,

I believe the image you are looking for was originally made by Denham, but you can find it also in Spring or in Cairns' little book "The African Knights".

Teodor

Hi Teodor,

Yep you are right, not sure why its not in Denham's two volumes of his travels but at least I found a copy. It provides a nice benchmark for us to assume these cuirasses were used at least in the 18th century as well if not further back.

[colin henshaw]

From "History of Mankind" by F. Ratzel 1898.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

From "History of Mankind" by F. Ratzel 1898.

Thanks! Its a very similar sketch to the Denham one. The high neck protector I think was leather, I haven't seen an extant example with one, however mine clearly has holes where it could be attached.

[estcrh]

A bit larger image, no text though.

[Iain]

Its based from the Denham sketch, including all the objects pictured. Friend was kind enough to send me a quick pic. Looks like the later book simply copied and changed up the pose a bit.

[estcrh]

From George Stone.

[TVV]

I just saw this one as I was browsing Waffen aus Zentral-Afrika. Not much info given, other than the Fulbe attribution. According to the description, the edge is trimmed in leather and there is cloth padding on the inside. It was collected by Steinkopf prior to 1914.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by TVV

I just saw this one as I was browsing Waffen aus Zentral-Afrika. Not much info given, other than the Fulbe attribution. According to the description, the edge is trimmed in leather and there is cloth padding on the inside. It was collected by Steinkopf prior to 1914.

Thanks Teodor, there are another two at least in Germany the Bremen museum (this might be one of them?).

Photo is courtesy of Wolf.

I am not sure where the one from Stone has ended up.

With mine, the next step is going to be a deep cleaning, some exploratory work has revealed that there is in fact extensive dark rust with red rust hiding underneath. So its going to get a good going over with metal -de-corroder and then a polish.

[Iain]

Just a small update, my cuirass has had a bit of a better clean and wax. Quite pleased with the result!

[Kubur]

Beautifull!
it's amazing to see how the Roman armour lorica segmenta survived in sub saharan Africa probably through transsaharan roads..

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Beautifull!
it's amazing to see how the Roman armour lorica segmenta survived in sub saharan Africa probably through transsaharan roads..

The construction is quite different. There's no evidence I'm aware of there's a relation.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Iain

The construction is quite different. There's no evidence I'm aware of there's a relation.

mmmm do you expect an exact replica done by Africans South of the Sahara, more than 1000 years after the end of the Roman Empire?

It's well accepted that tabouka and kaskara are African weapons inspired by Medieval swords... But we don't have any proof...

It's the same with the cuirass, it'll be very difficult to prove that they are not or they are inspired by Roman armour...

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Kubur

mmmm do you expect an exact replica done by Africans South of the Sahara, more than 1000 years after the end of the Roman Empire?

It's well accepted that tabouka and kaskara are African weapons inspired by Medieval swords... But we don't have any proof...

It's the same with the cuirass, it'll be very difficult to prove that they are not or they are inspired by Roman armour...

The difference is we can make a case for the "when" and the "how" for the kaskara and the takouba taking influence from Mamluk and outside sources includes details of trade routes, political and trade contact between states, physical trips by African monarchs through Egypt etc. The same for lifida armour, the horses used by the local cavalries etc.

The problem I have with making any connection to Roman armour is that the Kanuri and Kanembu peoples who made up the Bornu empire were geographically and in terms of a timeline far removed from any Roman presence in North Africa. Otherwise any assumed Roman influence is merely a case of seeing a rough visual similarity, an argument no stronger than the Victorian assumption the kaskara was derived from the swords of Crusaders or that certain forms of daggers and swords seen in Cameroon are derived from the Celts...

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Iain

The difference is we can make a case for the "when" and the "how" for the kaskara and the takouba taking influence from Mamluk and outside sources includes details of trade routes, political and trade contact between states, physical trips by African monarchs through Egypt etc. The same for lifida armour, the horses used by the local cavalries etc.

The problem I have with making any connection to Roman armour is that the Kanuri and Kanembu peoples who made up the Bornu empire were geographically and in terms of a timeline far removed from any Roman presence in North Africa. Otherwise any assumed Roman influence is merely a case of seeing a rough visual similarity, an argument no stronger than the Victorian assumption the kaskara was derived from the swords of Crusaders or that certain forms of daggers and swords seen in Cameroon are derived from the Celts...

The Celts and the Vikings....never

The Romans, it's another story...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

APOLOGIES AS IM STUCK ON CAPITALS HERE... PLEASE SEE https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ro...western_Africa WHERE A DESCRIPTION OF ROMAN ACTIVITY ACROSS THE ABOVE MAP IS CONSIDERED. THE ROMANS WERE VERY ACTIVE IN THE 1ST T0 4THC. AD … NOT TO MENTION THEIR ACTIVITY IN YEMEN WHERE THEY WERE FOLLOWING THE FRANKINCENCE TRAIL AT THE SAME TIME.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Kubur

The Celts and the Vikings....never

The Romans, it's another story...

Hi Kubur, I'm aware of these expeditions and they of course do offer fascinating possibilities. However, I still find the difference in construction and form of the cuirass to be quite different from a 1st century AD Roman armour, particularly in terms of how it fastens at the side, the riveting etc. Obviously if there was a connection one could expect changes over time, but I am a natural skeptic.

But who knows, perhaps archaeological work in the region will turn something up one of these days. Given the relationship with Ethiopians and even the presence of Ethiopians in Roman ranks, it would be interesting to see anything similar in those regions.

In any case its fun to speculate but I'm unaware of any archaeological evidence yet found for a Roman presence in the Lake Chad area. So, an intriguing possibility but given the general panoply of Bornu arms shows direct Mamluk influence it would be an odd holdover.

[Edster]

Iain,

Nice job on "resurrecting" your cuirass. Well done. Yours looks more native made that some of the other examples. The others appear of very similar design and to be made from thin rolled steel plates of uniform thickness and width. Also the rivets are mostly uniform. This suggests that they were made in a workshop using imported materials of the late 19th century.

How heavy is the item? The entire outfit of various dublets, chain mail, padded armour, plus the cuirass must have been very heavy. Robinson (1929) says that the Fung mounted bodyguards of the 1760s, as well as Darfurian cavalry, trained their war horses to kneel like a camel to allow the warriors to get aboard in full armour. He didn't mention that a cuirass was part of the outfit although he mentioned they were "clad in metal armour".

Also, I read somewhere that the pagan tribes of Darfur threw throwing-irons like on one of the posted images to try and unhorse the knights as they were virturally helpless once on the ground.

Best regards,
Ed

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Edster

Iain,

Nice job on "resurrecting" your cuirass. Well done. Yours looks more native made that some of the other examples. The others appear of very similar design and to be made from thin rolled steel plates of uniform thickness and width. Also the rivets are mostly uniform. This suggests that they were made in a workshop using imported materials of the late 19th century.

How heavy is the item? The entire outfit of various dublets, chain mail, padded armour, plus the cuirass must have been very heavy. Robinson (1929) says that the Fung mounted bodyguards of the 1760s, as well as Darfurian cavalry, trained their war horses to kneel like a camel to allow the warriors to get aboard in full armour. He didn't mention that a cuirass was part of the outfit although he mentioned they were "clad in metal armour".

Also, I read somewhere that the pagan tribes of Darfur threw throwing-irons like on one of the posted images to try and unhorse the knights as they were virturally helpless once on the ground.

Best regards,
Ed

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the kind words, it does appear to have a good deal of age, hammer marks, and has been through a lot.

Weight, I haven't had a chance to get it on a scale, I'd say a few kilos. Not particularly heavy. I think the quilted lifida contribute a bulk of the weight.