Kaskara?? Expensive to say the least. - Page 2

Tim Simmons · 13th December 2022, 08:35 PM

Hmmm, I think we have seen better quality blades without the inclusion of the suspect yellow metal. Even if , which I doubt it being gold , is it not worth more than a couple of hundred UK £ even at the highest carat. So I still ask why the example is so rough? So special ? The price ? Could be set by, to be nice, people with too much money and not a lot of judgement? Convince me !

Will M · 13th December 2022, 08:55 PM

I can only guess that the original hilt was valuable for its metal content and removed possibly by a soldier, blade being too long to be bothered with and as you say not much gold content. Rehilted using metal plates at the ricasso, most likely the tang or hilt just broken off.
It will remain an enigma until someone reveals the provenance. The rough filing could have happened at anytime, someone not knowing it's value and just interested in cutting with it or??

TVV · 14th December 2022, 05:02 AM

We can spend a lot of time puzzling over the price, but while we are waiting on a translation that may shed some light on why this sword was so special to those who bid for it, we can shift the discussion to the blade. It has some fascinating features.

The panel at the base of the blade with a chiseled arabesque is of a style, which is found on Ottoman blades from the late 18th, early 19th century. To me, from a pure historical perspective, this is fascinating. Towards the end of the 18th century, Ottoman control over Egypt was nominal. Then Napoleon's invasion came and contributed further to the general chaos, creating a power vacuum, which Mohammad Ali took full advantage of. Of course, Muhammad Ali had his own ambitions and after the Greek War of Independence crashed with Sultan Mahmud II directly. As for Sudan, this is the period of the final decline and disintegration of the Funj Sultanate. Interesting times for a blade decorated in an Ottoman style to end up there.

The Ottoman blades with these panels tend to be curved blades made of wootz. This one looks very much like a Solingen trade blade. It does not look like an earlier European broadsword blade, or an even earlier Mameluke saif badawi blade. It looks very much like all the other blades from the 19th century which were mass produced for export to Sudan. Why would decoration characteristic of high-end Ottoman sabers from this period be applied to a trade blade? Was someone in Cairo or even further South emulating royal Ottoman workshop work? Or was this blade worked in Istanbul and meant as a diplomatic gift to someone in Sudan?

The ricasso metal plates indicate that it was rehilted multiple times, causing damage to the tang to require such a way of attaching to the hilt. The inscription with its inlay may have been added at a later time, during the Mahdiyya, almost a century later. Compared to other kaskara blades with similar panels with inscriptions, which are either acid etched or very crudely engraved and almost never inlaid, it is actually of superior quality.

As for the hilt, I will let Edster comment on the comet motif and its significance.

Price aside, it is a very nice and interesting piece,

thinreadline · 23rd December 2022, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Until someone is kind enough to let us know what the blade inscription says, we can only speculate.

It takes at least two people to arrive at the hammer price, one of which may have been willing to exceed 100k GBP and another who was willing to pay an amount very close to that. So more than one person saw something very special about this sword and it almost certainly has to do with the blade.

It may be just me being ignorant, but I had not heard about this auction house before. It is not one that seems to specialize in arms and armor. For two major collectors or dealers to find this particular sword, sandwiched between lots of a 20th century military drum and a bottle of Johnny Walker from 2016 and bid it up this high is most unusual.

This all assumes the price displayed is correct.

Its a fairly minor and non specialist auction house run by Anita Manning who makes regular appearances on British 'popular' TV entertainment antiques programmes such as 'Flog It' and 'Bargain Hunt' .

Norman McCormick · 23rd December 2022, 01:50 PM

Hi,
This auction house as with others has very limited expertise in many areas so it is no surprise that the estimate was 'somewhat inaccurate', certainly not a place I would ever choose to use. Having said that this particular piece has surprised all here so the auction house is somewhat vindicated in this instance.
Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 3rd January 2023, 06:27 PM

Hi,
It would appear the hammer price is now £54,000, still expensive though. Maybe it will get cheaper still.

Regards,
Norman.

mariusgmioc · 4th January 2023, 11:52 AM

This isn't the first, and definitely won't be the last piece that sells waaay above its estimated money value.

It was so much speculated about its possible mysterious provenance but in the end the explanation for its whooping price can be much simpler and mundane.

There are many hobbyists and collectors that measure their fortunes not in millions, not in tens of millions and not even in hundreds of millions but in billions and even tens and hundreds of billions. For such persons the monetary price of an item has no significance whatsoever since if they want something they can pay no matter what in order to get it, while their overall fortune is not affected at all. It would be like me wanting badly to get an item estimated at 1 cent and ending up paying 5 or 10 dollars.

And this may be the case here.

Of course this is also a speculation like all the others.

Kmaddock · 4th January 2023, 03:09 PM

I agree Marius
But In an auction there must be at least 2 people who see the value.
I am sure the seller and auction house are delighted.
Regards
Ken

ariel · 4th January 2023, 04:55 PM

An extremely wealthy buyer is but one possibility (see#3).
But we still do not know the meaning of the inscription. Perhaps, just perhaps, it may show some exceptional provenance ( killing Chinese Gordon??)

Tim Simmons · 4th January 2023, 05:05 PM

No that will be a spear in the next auction.

JoeCanada42 · 10th January 2023, 06:43 AM

I though this was a similar situation,
sold January 1rst for 6000 US on eBay...

kronckew · 10th January 2023, 09:01 AM

Silly money. Some people shouldn't go to casinos or buy things in auctions...

4th January 2023, 11:52 AM	#37
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	money-wise This isn't the first, and definitely won't be the last piece that sells waaay above its estimated money value. It was so much speculated about its possible mysterious provenance but in the end the explanation for its whooping price can be much simpler and mundane. There are many hobbyists and collectors that measure their fortunes not in millions, not in tens of millions and not even in hundreds of millions but in billions and even tens and hundreds of billions. For such persons the monetary price of an item has no significance whatsoever since if they want something they can pay no matter what in order to get it, while their overall fortune is not affected at all. It would be like me wanting badly to get an item estimated at 1 cent and ending up paying 5 or 10 dollars. And this may be the case here. Of course this is also a speculation like all the others.

10th January 2023, 06:43 AM	#41
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	I though this was a similar situation, sold January 1rst for 6000 US on eBay... Attached Images

13th December 2022, 08:35 PM	#31
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hmmm, I think we have seen better quality blades without the inclusion of the suspect yellow metal. Even if , which I doubt it being gold , is it not worth more than a couple of hundred UK £ even at the highest carat. So I still ask why the example is so rough? So special ? The price ? Could be set by, to be nice, people with too much money and not a lot of judgement? Convince me !

13th December 2022, 08:55 PM	#32
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	I can only guess that the original hilt was valuable for its metal content and removed possibly by a soldier, blade being too long to be bothered with and as you say not much gold content. Rehilted using metal plates at the ricasso, most likely the tang or hilt just broken off. It will remain an enigma until someone reveals the provenance. The rough filing could have happened at anytime, someone not knowing it's value and just interested in cutting with it or??

14th December 2022, 05:02 AM	#33
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,622	We can spend a lot of time puzzling over the price, but while we are waiting on a translation that may shed some light on why this sword was so special to those who bid for it, we can shift the discussion to the blade. It has some fascinating features. The panel at the base of the blade with a chiseled arabesque is of a style, which is found on Ottoman blades from the late 18th, early 19th century. To me, from a pure historical perspective, this is fascinating. Towards the end of the 18th century, Ottoman control over Egypt was nominal. Then Napoleon's invasion came and contributed further to the general chaos, creating a power vacuum, which Mohammad Ali took full advantage of. Of course, Muhammad Ali had his own ambitions and after the Greek War of Independence crashed with Sultan Mahmud II directly. As for Sudan, this is the period of the final decline and disintegration of the Funj Sultanate. Interesting times for a blade decorated in an Ottoman style to end up there. The Ottoman blades with these panels tend to be curved blades made of wootz. This one looks very much like a Solingen trade blade. It does not look like an earlier European broadsword blade, or an even earlier Mameluke saif badawi blade. It looks very much like all the other blades from the 19th century which were mass produced for export to Sudan. Why would decoration characteristic of high-end Ottoman sabers from this period be applied to a trade blade? Was someone in Cairo or even further South emulating royal Ottoman workshop work? Or was this blade worked in Istanbul and meant as a diplomatic gift to someone in Sudan? The ricasso metal plates indicate that it was rehilted multiple times, causing damage to the tang to require such a way of attaching to the hilt. The inscription with its inlay may have been added at a later time, during the Mahdiyya, almost a century later. Compared to other kaskara blades with similar panels with inscriptions, which are either acid etched or very crudely engraved and almost never inlaid, it is actually of superior quality. As for the hilt, I will let Edster comment on the comet motif and its significance. Price aside, it is a very nice and interesting piece,

23rd December 2022, 01:50 PM	#35
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, This auction house as with others has very limited expertise in many areas so it is no surprise that the estimate was 'somewhat inaccurate', certainly not a place I would ever choose to use. Having said that this particular piece has surprised all here so the auction house is somewhat vindicated in this instance. Regards, Norman.

3rd January 2023, 06:27 PM	#36
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, It would appear the hammer price is now £54,000, still expensive though. Maybe it will get cheaper still. Regards, Norman.

4th January 2023, 03:09 PM	#38
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	I agree Marius But In an auction there must be at least 2 people who see the value. I am sure the seller and auction house are delighted. Regards Ken

4th January 2023, 04:55 PM	#39
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	An extremely wealthy buyer is but one possibility (see#3). But we still do not know the meaning of the inscription. Perhaps, just perhaps, it may show some exceptional provenance ( killing Chinese Gordon??)

4th January 2023, 05:05 PM	#40
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	No that will be a spear in the next auction.

10th January 2023, 09:01 AM	#42
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	Silly money. Some people shouldn't go to casinos or buy things in auctions...