IFICAH funding sale at Czerny's - Page 2

Will M · 22nd December 2019, 11:38 PM

The problem I see with it is when the "stones" are not real gem stones then the "gold" will not be solid but a gilt. You do not use pure gold with glass stones, just does not make sense. Hopefully we will find some feedback from the new owner.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd December 2019, 04:21 AM

It most certainly makes no sense at all to somebody from a Western culture to use pastes, or glass with real gold.

However, with Balinese people, including Balinese royalty, and to a lesser extent with Javanese people, the objective of decoration on a keris, or anywhere else, is effect, not intrinsic value.

Thus, we find Balinese royal keris with a mix of diamonds (a protection against poison), coloured gemstones, and glass or pastes. The objective can be pure decorative effect, or it can talismanic effect, it is never to have only natural, high value stones. For example, on a typical Balinese keris we would be looking for a combination of white, red, black stones/pastes/glass, these colours being representative of Siwa, Brahma, Wisnu.

I do not know the requirements for Sulawesi or other places, but my guess would be that a similar approach to ornamentation would apply.

Green · 23rd December 2019, 09:39 AM

An aside. Does anyone have any problem accessing the Czerny's website lately? I keep on getting error 404 when trying to log in into my account or open any pages of the website for the past few days. When I e mailed the staff she mentioned it works normally from their side.

Appreciate if anyone can explain.

Regards

Nik

Anthony G. · 23rd December 2019, 12:04 PM

I have just tested the main site (page) and indeed the main site is working fine as per tested today at 8pm (Singapore Time SGT).

I randomly clicked at other links at main page and menu page. It is not available.

Without prejudice, I assume their web server having problems or they are doing page data update? The staffs could be using/accessing local internet cache when browsing the site.

Definitely not your issue (computer).

David · 23rd December 2019, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will M

The problem I see with it is when the "stones" are not real gem stones then the "gold" will not be solid but a gilt. You do not use pure gold with glass stones, just does not make sense. Hopefully we will find some feedback from the new owner.

Though not really necessary i will double down on what Alan has just reported on this subject, at least as it applies to Balinese gold dressed keris. That the "stones" in this keris may well not be real gemstones does not automatically infer that the metal used in the dress is not pure gold. Again, this is common in Balinese royal dress even if it does seem strange when applied to examples of Western arms and amourment.

jagabuwana · 27th December 2019, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

For example, on a typical Balinese keris we would be looking for a combination of white, red, black stones/pastes/glass, these colours being representative of Siwa, Brahma, Wisnu.

This reminds me, when I spoke with Pemangku Pande Ketut Mudra he mentioned that the different components in the blade represented the trimurti (according to him). I wish I took notes because now I don't remember. Alan would you happen to familiar with this and could you please jog my memory? If I'm not mistaken, nickel represents Siwa.

A. G. Maisey · 27th December 2019, 05:53 AM

I have not heard this, but that means nothing, beliefs change from place to place, person to person. If it is possible draw a relationship between the Trimurti and the elements of the blade, why not accept it?

When we draw Balinese relationships we need to use the Balinese Mandala as our point of reference. One of the elements in the Mandala is colour.

I'm coming at this question not having heard that blade elements can be related to the Trimurti, so my first thought is colour:- Siwa : mixed colours, Brahma : red, Wisnu : black; but then we have Iswara, who is not a part of the Trimurti. Mixed colours would seemingly indicate pamor, not just the nickel component of pamor.

Iswara is an idea that can have various applications depending upon the school of Hindu belief, the situation, and many other things. In Bali-Hindu Iswara is usually interpreted as the idea that can become a deity who is above the Trimurti, but Iswara can also be understood as Siwa.

The colour of Iswara is white, so if Pande Ketut Mudra aligned nickel, which is white, with Siwa, well, that tells you how he was thinking at that time.

But what about Brahma, who has red, and Wisnu, who has black? You can often see the colours of the trimurti in the stones/pastes/glass/plastic used in Balinese hilts.

Black is obvious enough in a keris blade, but red? Maybe a little patch of rust, or the red that accumulates under an old warangan job?

We need to understand that everything in Bali comes in threes. Once we realise this we can usually line up some sort of explanation to then align the three with the Trimurti, and why not? The Trimurti are only aspects of the Ultimate Oneness, and that Ultimate Oneness is everywhere and in all things.

The Ultimate Unity is Acintya = Sang Hyang Widhi Wasa. But it makes things easier to understand for the common people if that Oneness that is impossible to hold in the mind can be split into its elements, this is the thought behind the multitude of representative deities in Hindu belief.

I probably should mention that this idea of "one God" is relatively recent in Bali. It is an element of some Hindu philosophical thought that goes back a very long way, but in Bali the idea seems to have gained popularity only after the new state of Indonesia decided that everybody had religious freedom, provided that they identified their religion as being one of the official approved state religions and that there was belief in One God.

mariusgmioc · 27th December 2019, 08:19 AM

I believe what Alan said with regards to the use of coloured glass in combination with genuine gemstones is quite common across many cultures.

I have encountered a mix of genuine gemstones and coloured glass on Indian dagger hilts and other Indian and Chinese artefacts.

A. G. Maisey · 27th December 2019, 07:28 PM

I do not think I did say that a mix & match approach was common in many cultures Marius. I might have worded something badly, with the effect that it could be understood like this, and I'll check and see if I can find where this happened.

However, the simple fact is that I have very little knowledge in this respect about many cultures, I was only talking about Bali with certainty and Jawa with a lesser certainty.

David · 27th December 2019, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I believe what Alan said with regards to the use of coloured glass in combination with genuine gemstones is quite common across many cultures.

Alan, i think you may have misread what Marius wrote. He did not suggest that YOU thought such mixing was common across many cultures. He stated that HE BELIEVES that what you said about such mixing is ALSO common across many cultures.

A. G. Maisey · 28th December 2019, 12:20 AM

Yes David, you're right. I can sometimes have problems with the current practice relating to use of punctuation and syntax.

jagabuwana · 28th December 2019, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

But what about Brahma, who has red, and Wisnu, who has black? You can often see the colours of the trimurti in the stones/pastes/glass/plastic used in Balinese hilts.

Black is obvious enough in a keris blade, but red? Maybe a little patch of rust, or the red that accumulates under an old warangan job

Ah, so you have reminded me!
He said that Wisnu is the blackened iron on the blade, Siva is the "white" nickel and Brahma is the fire that created it.

Very interesting too about Isvara - thank you.

A. G. Maisey · 28th December 2019, 10:21 AM

Sounds reasonable.

Brahma is indeed the creator --- but if the fire is Brahma, he is not really a component of the blade.

jagabuwana · 29th December 2019, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Sounds reasonable.

Brahma is indeed the creator --- but if the fire is Brahma, he is not really a component of the blade.

Yeah I think I fed myself a red herring in the process of trying to remember. Jeez, and they say your memory doesn't falter till you're older!

A. G. Maisey · 30th December 2019, 06:08 AM

Pande Ketut would have spoken to you in BI. What we remember in BI sometimes gets a bit skewed when we later try to put it into English.

27th December 2019, 05:53 AM	#37
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	I have not heard this, but that means nothing, beliefs change from place to place, person to person. If it is possible draw a relationship between the Trimurti and the elements of the blade, why not accept it? When we draw Balinese relationships we need to use the Balinese Mandala as our point of reference. One of the elements in the Mandala is colour. I'm coming at this question not having heard that blade elements can be related to the Trimurti, so my first thought is colour:- Siwa : mixed colours, Brahma : red, Wisnu : black; but then we have Iswara, who is not a part of the Trimurti. Mixed colours would seemingly indicate pamor, not just the nickel component of pamor. Iswara is an idea that can have various applications depending upon the school of Hindu belief, the situation, and many other things. In Bali-Hindu Iswara is usually interpreted as the idea that can become a deity who is above the Trimurti, but Iswara can also be understood as Siwa. The colour of Iswara is white, so if Pande Ketut Mudra aligned nickel, which is white, with Siwa, well, that tells you how he was thinking at that time. But what about Brahma, who has red, and Wisnu, who has black? You can often see the colours of the trimurti in the stones/pastes/glass/plastic used in Balinese hilts. Black is obvious enough in a keris blade, but red? Maybe a little patch of rust, or the red that accumulates under an old warangan job? We need to understand that everything in Bali comes in threes. Once we realise this we can usually line up some sort of explanation to then align the three with the Trimurti, and why not? The Trimurti are only aspects of the Ultimate Oneness, and that Ultimate Oneness is everywhere and in all things. The Ultimate Unity is Acintya = Sang Hyang Widhi Wasa. But it makes things easier to understand for the common people if that Oneness that is impossible to hold in the mind can be split into its elements, this is the thought behind the multitude of representative deities in Hindu belief. I probably should mention that this idea of "one God" is relatively recent in Bali. It is an element of some Hindu philosophical thought that goes back a very long way, but in Bali the idea seems to have gained popularity only after the new state of Indonesia decided that everybody had religious freedom, provided that they identified their religion as being one of the official approved state religions and that there was belief in One God. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 27th December 2019 at 06:10 AM.

22nd December 2019, 11:38 PM	#31
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	The problem I see with it is when the "stones" are not real gem stones then the "gold" will not be solid but a gilt. You do not use pure gold with glass stones, just does not make sense. Hopefully we will find some feedback from the new owner.

23rd December 2019, 04:21 AM	#32
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	It most certainly makes no sense at all to somebody from a Western culture to use pastes, or glass with real gold. However, with Balinese people, including Balinese royalty, and to a lesser extent with Javanese people, the objective of decoration on a keris, or anywhere else, is effect, not intrinsic value. Thus, we find Balinese royal keris with a mix of diamonds (a protection against poison), coloured gemstones, and glass or pastes. The objective can be pure decorative effect, or it can talismanic effect, it is never to have only natural, high value stones. For example, on a typical Balinese keris we would be looking for a combination of white, red, black stones/pastes/glass, these colours being representative of Siwa, Brahma, Wisnu. I do not know the requirements for Sulawesi or other places, but my guess would be that a similar approach to ornamentation would apply.

23rd December 2019, 09:39 AM	#33
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	An aside. Does anyone have any problem accessing the Czerny's website lately? I keep on getting error 404 when trying to log in into my account or open any pages of the website for the past few days. When I e mailed the staff she mentioned it works normally from their side. Appreciate if anyone can explain. Regards Nik

23rd December 2019, 12:04 PM	#34
Anthony G. Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 463	I have just tested the main site (page) and indeed the main site is working fine as per tested today at 8pm (Singapore Time SGT). I randomly clicked at other links at main page and menu page. It is not available. Without prejudice, I assume their web server having problems or they are doing page data update? The staffs could be using/accessing local internet cache when browsing the site. Definitely not your issue (computer).

27th December 2019, 08:19 AM	#38
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	I believe what Alan said with regards to the use of coloured glass in combination with genuine gemstones is quite common across many cultures. I have encountered a mix of genuine gemstones and coloured glass on Indian dagger hilts and other Indian and Chinese artefacts.

27th December 2019, 07:28 PM	#39
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	I do not think I did say that a mix & match approach was common in many cultures Marius. I might have worded something badly, with the effect that it could be understood like this, and I'll check and see if I can find where this happened. However, the simple fact is that I have very little knowledge in this respect about many cultures, I was only talking about Bali with certainty and Jawa with a lesser certainty.

28th December 2019, 12:20 AM	#41
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Yes David, you're right. I can sometimes have problems with the current practice relating to use of punctuation and syntax.

28th December 2019, 10:21 AM	#43
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Sounds reasonable. Brahma is indeed the creator --- but if the fire is Brahma, he is not really a component of the blade.

30th December 2019, 06:08 AM	#45
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Pande Ketut would have spoken to you in BI. What we remember in BI sometimes gets a bit skewed when we later try to put it into English.