Indo-Persian sword with Wootz blade and parrot hilt - Page 2

mariusgmioc · 13th July 2016, 11:20 AM

Have no idea what it is, nor where exactly does it come from but if it is wootz, it definitely is antique!

Moreover, Indian blades display probably the widest array of shapes of all blades and I'm not surprised this shape to be one of them as the Indians seem to fancy recurved blades a lot (as seen in Khnajar, Khanjarli, Pesh-kabz, Bichwa, Soussun Pata, etc.).

So wootz and recurved blade, typical Indian guard, clearly point India to me.

Where exactly in India?! Well... that's a completely different story. Good luck with it!

kronckew · 13th July 2016, 12:33 PM

the hilt reminds me of mine: appears to have a trade blade & was discussed on this forum as possibly so. indian tho nrth was also mentioned. this thread opens more possibilities.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 14th July 2016, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

the hilt reminds me of mine: appears to have a trade blade & was discussed on this forum as possibly so. indian tho nrth was also mentioned. this thread opens more possibilities.

The weapon you show is clearly the same style...same family as that being discussed...

mariusgmioc · 14th July 2016, 12:12 PM

Upon further consideration, I came to the conclusion that it shows the characteristics of a Deccan Bichwa... jut a bigger one.

So I would tend to lean towards Deccan origin.

But since there is little doubt that is an Indian sword, why calling it "Indo-Persian" when Indian would do?!

I noticed it has somehow became a fad calling all Indian or Persian weapons "Indo-Persian" even when is as clear as daylight they are either Indian or Persian.

Roland_M · 14th July 2016, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

But since there is little doubt that is an Indian sword, why calling it "Indo-Persian" when Indian would do?!

""Indo-Persian culture" refers to those Persian aspects that have been integrated into or absorbed into the cultures of the Indian Subcontinent (hence the prefix "Indo"), and in particular, into North India, and modern-day Pakistan."

If someone calls a Persian shamshir with the typical downward curved Persian hilt "Indo-Persian" it's simply wrong.

As I mentioned before, Indians often copied the most successfull patterns from other countries.

Roland

ariel · 14th July 2016, 01:33 PM

In these 2 threads we have stumbled upon a yet undescribed pattern of a long-bladed slashing weapon. I would intuitively place it in North India, but may be wrong. It's age and name are unknown.

Sounds like a fertile area for research:-)))

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 14th July 2016, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

In these 2 threads we have stumbled upon a yet undescribed pattern of a long-bladed slashing weapon. I would intuitively place it in North India, but may be wrong. It's age and name are unknown.

Sounds like a fertile area for research:-)))

I suggest along with Ariel that these two threads which are clearly the same family ...be joined. I note that the design treatment at the throat is similar to Yatagan although this may simply be coincidental since Khanda, Kard, Pesh Kabz and Yatagan are very close...in design style.
May the two threads be joined together?...

Below I place for comparison weaponry displaying similar work at the throat and some with similar hand guards to the project style...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 14th July 2016, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello,

My interest in Kopesh/Kopis-like blades got me this nice sword for which I yet have to find a name or any other details on its history - any suggestions/observations most welcome!

Regards,
Kai

Salams Kai... My apologies since I should have mentioned to you about requesting joining your thread to that of Ariels at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21429 ...

Please note that I have requested along with Ariel that these two threads be fused since they are about the same family of swords which appears to be a kind of Indian weapon, hybrid or mixture, not fully researched ...and which together as one thread would make an excellent subject...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

kai · 15th July 2016, 04:20 AM

Hello Ariel,

Thanks a lot for pointing out the companion thread and the possible or even probable relationship based on this rare hilt type!

The hilt construction of the 2 Indian swords with sigmoid wootz blades discussed in this thread seems to be pretty typical for southern India with an integral langet/tunkou used to attach the wootz blade to the hilt. Quite distinct from the full tang construction used in the 3 examples from the other thread. This might merely be due to constraints/function (with wootz blades being size-limited based on ingots) or possibly quality/status (the 2 pieces discussed here seem to be status pieces with elaborate decoration and parrot head pommel while 2 out of 3 in the other thread appear to be of more mundane origin).

While quite a few other blades were shown here in an attempt to establish a relationship, I believe this is a distinct type of sword and I'm not convinced that merging both threads will really help discussion since responses will get mixed up even more.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 15th July 2016, 04:31 AM

Hello Marius,

Quote:

Upon further consideration, I came to the conclusion that it shows the characteristics of a Deccan Bichwa... jut a bigger one.

So I would tend to lean towards Deccan origin.

Can you elaborate and show pics to clarify, please?

Quote:

But since there is little doubt that is an Indian sword, why calling it "Indo-Persian" when Indian would do?!

I fully agree and can relate to your pain.

Note that I started this thread 11 years ago and I guess this was a pre-emptive attempt to weasel out in case my attribution would got challenged by specialists...

I'd love a mod to change the title to "Indian ..." for better reference and searching, pretty please!

Regards,
Kai

kai · 15th July 2016, 04:45 AM

Hello Ibrahiim,

Quote:

I note that the design treatment at the throat is similar to Yatagan although this may simply be coincidental since Khanda, Kard, Pesh Kabz and Yatagan are very close...in design style.

Below I place for comparison weaponry displaying similar work at the throat and some with similar hand guards to the project style...

None of this hilt type's parts are really unique - it's the really unusual combination which makes it so distinctive. Once you start looking at decorations, it's not surprising to see even more similarities in general style all across the continent and beyond. I don't think it really helps to compare koftgari to integral "tunkou" unless you dig into the details of any motifs to possibly establish any local origin; this would be really helpful though!

Regards,
Kai

mariusgmioc · 15th July 2016, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Marius,

Can you elaborate and show pics to clarify, please?

Kai

Hello Kai,

Please just Google images of "bichwa dagger" and I'm sure you'll find some examples very similar to your sword.

Also keep in mind that normal Bichwa si much smaller and designed mainly for reverse grip stabbing, hence the symetrical armatures fixing the blade to the hilt. However, your sword is too big to be used in the reverse grip, and since it has to be used with forward grip and also for slashing, it needs to have the armatures enforced towards the spine of the blade (like the ottoman Yataghans).

But just keep it in mind that this is just a hunch and by no means an irrefutable fact. Yet, it may give us a good direction for further enquiry.

Regards,

Marius

estcrh · 15th July 2016, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

If someone calls a Persian shamshir with the typical downward curved Persian hilt "Indo-Persian" it's simply wrong.

Roland, it is not "wrong" at all, you have your particular version of "Indo-Persian" but it is also used in other contexts. Dealers and collectors often use "Indo-Persian as a way to group together items from various cultures that are in close proximity to each other, the same way "European" cobbles together many different counties and regions. An "Indo-Persian" whatever is not much different than a "European" whatever. Umbrella terms help people find and locate items online, if a someone searches for "Indo-Persian" online it is much easier than searching for "Persian", "Indian", "Ottoman", "Sryrian" etc.

Indo-Persian is also the standard fall back when you do not know the specific origin of an item but you do know it from India, Persia, Syria, Ottoman etc.

Roland_M · 15th July 2016, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Roland, it is not "wrong" at all, you have your particular version of "Indo-Persian" but it is also used in other contexts.

I was unsure about the meaning of this term, so I visited Wikipedia and the their definition seems reasonable. As you said, it seems that this term has more than one meaning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Persian_culture

Roland

mariusgmioc · 15th July 2016, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

I was unsure about the meaning of this term, so I visited Wikipedia and the their definition seems reasonable. As you said, it seems that this term has more than one meaning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Persian_culture

Roland

True. But the problem comes from the term being mis-used.

And we are collectors of weapons, not etnographs to talk about the broader cultural influeces and about the "Inndo-Persian" culture. In our field, when somebody talks about a typical Indian Khanda and refers to it as being Indo-Persian is doing nothing but creating ambiguity.

I certainly understand calling Indo-Persian a Shamshir with an "Assadullah" blade and a Tulwar hilt, or a Pesh-kabz bearing the traits of both Persian and Indian workmanship, but as I said in my original posting, I think the use of the term is abused, for the sake of "political correctness"... or in other words, just to be on the safe side.

Roland_M · 15th July 2016, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

And we are collectors of weapons, not etnographs to talk about the broader cultural influeces and about the "Inndo-Persian" culture. In our field, when somebody talks about a typical Indian Khanda and refers to it as being Indo-Persian is doing nothing but creating ambiguity.

I hope, I don't understand you wrong, but swords and all other weapons are an integral part of culture.

A real Assadollah-Blade with a later added Tulwar hilt is clearly a Persian sword in my eyes.

I think there is a kind of border, where the meaning of such term becomes blurred.

Have a nice weekend

mariusgmioc · 15th July 2016, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

I hope, I don't understand you wrong, but swords and all other weapons are an integral part of culture.

A real Assadollah-Blade with a later added Tulwar hilt is clearly a Persian sword in my eyes.

I think there is a kind of border, where the meaning of such term becomes blurred.

Have a nice weekend

Well, we can debate this at length but I think it is not the place at this thread, as here the discussion should remain focused on Kai's sword.

Maybe we can meet sometime this summer and debate it face to face drinking a beer.

Have a nice weekend too!

Sajen · 15th July 2016, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

And we are collectors of weapons, not etnographs to talk about the broader cultural influeces and about the "Inndo-Persian" culture.

Hello Marius,

one remark still let me make, I think that a "good" collector is every time also a little bit an ethnographer since you never will gain a deeper understanding about your toys without being this.

Best regards,
Detlef

ariel · 15th July 2016, 07:24 PM

I think there is some degree of confusion here: tunkou has nothing to do with S. Indian bladed weapons. It is of a nomadic origin, and was found on Kirghiz sabers dating to VI-VIII centuries. From there it migrated both Eastward to China and Westward/Southward (Mongols, Seljuks) and that's how it reached Europe, Turkey and North India.
It was originally designed to isolate the edge of the blade from a contact with the scabbard and to prevent moisture from entering it. With time, it acquired purely decorative overtones.

Retaining plates on S. Indian katars, patas and khandas were a device aimed at attaching the blade to the handle.

I do not think there is anything in common between the long-bladed shashka-like ( sorry for the term, but you know what I mean) weapons and bichwa, that is a short-bladed dagger deriving from a humble cowhorn with a big hole.

mariusgmioc · 15th July 2016, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Marius,

one remark still let me make, I think that a "good" collector is every time also a little bit an ethnographer since you never will gain a deeper understanding about your toys without being this.

Best regards,
Detlef

Hard to argue with this one!

Have a nice weekend!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th July 2016, 09:42 AM

The simple process of fusing together two threads dealing with an identical form is requested so that the entire process can be correctly focused upon...without duplication and without confusion... They are of the same subject...the same sword family and .... on the same Forum. Bringing them together allows Forum to treat the subject as a single conundrum ...not two.

Therefor logically ...May the two be joined ?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

kai · 16th July 2016, 06:06 PM

Hello Ibrahiim,

When 2 threads are joined, the old responses get mingled in chronological order - this doesn't help with following the extensive discussion already present. I'm not convinced that this really helps.

Both threads are cross-referenced, so anyone stumbling on one of these threads will also see the other one. IMHO that should do - YMMV. I rest my case and leave it for the mods to decide.

Regards,
Kai

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 17th July 2016, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Ibrahiim,

When 2 threads are joined, the old responses get mingled in chronological order - this doesn't help with following the extensive discussion already present. I'm not convinced that this really helps.

Both threads are cross-referenced, so anyone stumbling on one of these threads will also see the other one. IMHO that should do - YMMV. I rest my case and leave it for the mods to decide.

Regards,
Kai

Show me evidence of this...where confusion results from joining two threads dealing with the same basic subject? The two threads focus upon the same sword family/style... It is blindingly obvious that the two should be put together.

kai · 18th October 2016, 02:14 PM

Here's a close-up showing the wootz blade of the sword starting this thread. Am I correct to see some surface manipulation during forging of the ingot to achieve a (possibly ladder-like) pattern?

Regards,
Kai

kai · 18th October 2016, 02:25 PM

A very similar sword as already shown in an earlier post:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=26

kai · 18th October 2016, 02:50 PM

A bronze hilt of similar construction with a sinha (or yali?) pommel. This seems to corroborate a connection with Hindu regions of southern India.

(Thanks to Ibrahiim for originally pulling this off the Ali Antiques website; all pics shown here for comparision modified to show the same orientation.)

kai · 18th October 2016, 02:53 PM

This sword with a horse head pommel has a different kind of blade.

kai · 18th October 2016, 02:58 PM

Another zoomorphic pommel. However, the hilt exhibiting some differences from the standard configuration discussed here: a vestigial crossbar at the back of the blade and more floral decorations, especially at the base of the blade. Arguably, it may be questionable whether this is really of the same pattern and origin as the other examples discussed here.

kai · 18th October 2016, 03:23 PM

And last not least another variant with a more stylized pommel (still close enough to the bird examples shown above).

With the grip and pommel scales made from ivory, this one was also a status piece. Thus, one might argue that all these examples were mid (to high in post #58) status swords from somewhere in southern India; all seem to be well earlier than late 19th century.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 6th April 2021, 02:13 AM

I haven't updated this thread for quite a while.

As possible origins within southern India, there have been suggestions to a link to the late Vijayanagar empire and/or possibly local kingdoms developing from it (including more specifically Madurai in today's Tamil Nadu).

There also have been thoughts towards the NW frontier area of a greater "Indian" sphere of influence as well as central Asia (cp. this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21429).

More insights and examples more than welcome - this enigma certainly hasn't been fully solved yet!

Regards,
Kai

13th July 2016, 11:20 AM	#31
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	S Have no idea what it is, nor where exactly does it come from but if it is wootz, it definitely is antique! Moreover, Indian blades display probably the widest array of shapes of all blades and I'm not surprised this shape to be one of them as the Indians seem to fancy recurved blades a lot (as seen in Khnajar, Khanjarli, Pesh-kabz, Bichwa, Soussun Pata, etc.). So wootz and recurved blade, typical Indian guard, clearly point India to me. Where exactly in India?! Well... that's a completely different story. Good luck with it! Last edited by mariusgmioc; 13th July 2016 at 04:08 PM.

13th July 2016, 12:33 PM	#32
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	the hilt reminds me of mine: appears to have a trade blade & was discussed on this forum as possibly so. indian tho nrth was also mentioned. this thread opens more possibilities. Attached Images

18th October 2016, 02:14 PM	#54
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Here's a close-up showing the wootz blade of the sword starting this thread. Am I correct to see some surface manipulation during forging of the ingot to achieve a (possibly ladder-like) pattern? Regards, Kai Attached Images

18th October 2016, 02:25 PM	#55
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	A very similar sword as already shown in an earlier post: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=26 Attached Images

18th October 2016, 02:50 PM	#56
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	A bronze hilt of similar construction with a sinha (or yali?) pommel. This seems to corroborate a connection with Hindu regions of southern India. (Thanks to Ibrahiim for originally pulling this off the Ali Antiques website; all pics shown here for comparision modified to show the same orientation.) Attached Images

14th July 2016, 12:12 PM	#34
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Upon further consideration, I came to the conclusion that it shows the characteristics of a Deccan Bichwa... jut a bigger one. So I would tend to lean towards Deccan origin. But since there is little doubt that is an Indian sword, why calling it "Indo-Persian" when Indian would do?! I noticed it has somehow became a fad calling all Indian or Persian weapons "Indo-Persian" even when is as clear as daylight they are either Indian or Persian.

14th July 2016, 01:33 PM	#36
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	In these 2 threads we have stumbled upon a yet undescribed pattern of a long-bladed slashing weapon. I would intuitively place it in North India, but may be wrong. It's age and name are unknown. Sounds like a fertile area for research:-)))

15th July 2016, 04:20 AM	#39
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Ariel, Thanks a lot for pointing out the companion thread and the possible or even probable relationship based on this rare hilt type! The hilt construction of the 2 Indian swords with sigmoid wootz blades discussed in this thread seems to be pretty typical for southern India with an integral langet/tunkou used to attach the wootz blade to the hilt. Quite distinct from the full tang construction used in the 3 examples from the other thread. This might merely be due to constraints/function (with wootz blades being size-limited based on ingots) or possibly quality/status (the 2 pieces discussed here seem to be status pieces with elaborate decoration and parrot head pommel while 2 out of 3 in the other thread appear to be of more mundane origin). While quite a few other blades were shown here in an attempt to establish a relationship, I believe this is a distinct type of sword and I'm not convinced that merging both threads will really help discussion since responses will get mixed up even more. Regards, Kai

15th July 2016, 07:24 PM	#49
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think there is some degree of confusion here: tunkou has nothing to do with S. Indian bladed weapons. It is of a nomadic origin, and was found on Kirghiz sabers dating to VI-VIII centuries. From there it migrated both Eastward to China and Westward/Southward (Mongols, Seljuks) and that's how it reached Europe, Turkey and North India. It was originally designed to isolate the edge of the blade from a contact with the scabbard and to prevent moisture from entering it. With time, it acquired purely decorative overtones. Retaining plates on S. Indian katars, patas and khandas were a device aimed at attaching the blade to the handle. I do not think there is anything in common between the long-bladed shashka-like ( sorry for the term, but you know what I mean) weapons and bichwa, that is a short-bladed dagger deriving from a humble cowhorn with a big hole.

16th July 2016, 09:42 AM	#51
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	The simple process of fusing together two threads dealing with an identical form is requested so that the entire process can be correctly focused upon...without duplication and without confusion... They are of the same subject...the same sword family and .... on the same Forum. Bringing them together allows Forum to treat the subject as a single conundrum ...not two. Therefor logically ...May the two be joined ? Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

16th July 2016, 06:06 PM	#52
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Ibrahiim, When 2 threads are joined, the old responses get mingled in chronological order - this doesn't help with following the extensive discussion already present. I'm not convinced that this really helps. Both threads are cross-referenced, so anyone stumbling on one of these threads will also see the other one. IMHO that should do - YMMV. I rest my case and leave it for the mods to decide. Regards, Kai

18th October 2016, 02:53 PM	#57
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	This sword with a horse head pommel has a different kind of blade. Attached Images

18th October 2016, 02:58 PM	#58
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Another zoomorphic pommel. However, the hilt exhibiting some differences from the standard configuration discussed here: a vestigial crossbar at the back of the blade and more floral decorations, especially at the base of the blade. Arguably, it may be questionable whether this is really of the same pattern and origin as the other examples discussed here. Attached Images

18th October 2016, 03:23 PM	#59
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	And last not least another variant with a more stylized pommel (still close enough to the bird examples shown above). With the grip and pommel scales made from ivory, this one was also a status piece. Thus, one might argue that all these examples were mid (to high in post #58) status swords from somewhere in southern India; all seem to be well earlier than late 19th century. Regards, Kai Attached Images Last edited by kai; 18th October 2016 at 03:52 PM. Reason: adding full-size pic

6th April 2021, 02:13 AM	#60
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	I haven't updated this thread for quite a while. As possible origins within southern India, there have been suggestions to a link to the late Vijayanagar empire and/or possibly local kingdoms developing from it (including more specifically Madurai in today's Tamil Nadu). There also have been thoughts towards the NW frontier area of a greater "Indian" sphere of influence as well as central Asia (cp. this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21429). More insights and examples more than welcome - this enigma certainly hasn't been fully solved yet! Regards, Kai