![]() |
![]() |
#31 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 2,653
|
![]()
Hi William,
thank you very much for your help ![]() ![]() Kind regards David |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#32 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 332
|
![]()
Hi David/katana. Please forgive my habit of being sometimes over-critisize, I can't help it as research is part of my daily wages.
If you check my photos from the fencing collection you will find at least one pair of sharp duelling foils - especially those with colonial-looking cup hilts, so I don't have problems with the thought that your foil was indeed for duelling. Great innovative "macro shots" ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#33 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 33
|
![]() ![]() ![]() I've checked the information I have gathered so far and must admit that I've never came across that kind of marking. Quite interesting is the fact that the marking is on the "shoulder" of the blade and not on the side, because normally blades were marked there. Judging by the crown, I would guess the blade was forged in England perhaps first half of the 19th century. The strange grip and the observations made by broadaxe seem to indicate that the weapon was made up at a later point in time using (at least) an older blade (perhaps even the guard). Do you mind posting pictures of the pommel? This might show if the blade is threaded (which can be another indicator for the forging time). William |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#34 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 2,653
|
![]()
Hi Broadaxe,
thank you ![]() Hi William, thank you for your time in trying to ID the blade marks...very kind of you ![]() ![]() ![]() The tang of the blade appears to be 'peened' over......whether the pommel is threaded and the tang peened to secure it (prevent it turning) is unclear. What is clear is the fact that pommel and tang were 'mated' sometime ago .All the fittings are nice and tight so it is impossible to gain any more information.....without damage that is ![]() Kind Regards David . |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#35 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]() Quote:
![]() Fernando |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#36 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 33
|
![]() ![]() ![]() The pommel looks like the blade is not threaded. This would indicate that the weapon is authentic. So we must get back to Broadaxe' first guess about it being a private ordered weapon. Perhaps the personal whims of a fencer were taken into account while designing the weapon. The POB and the strange grip would indicate something like that. Regarding the blade... I got something, but I want to verify it first... this might take some time. Regarding the sharp point: I wouldn't be too sure that it was in fact used as a duelling weapon. It was not unheard of the sharpening of foils, but the chances are quite slim to get one nowadays which has survived the tides of time. So statistically: it must be sharpened later ![]() William |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#37 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 675
|
![]()
Hi William.
Quote:
Cheers Chris |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#38 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 33
|
![]()
@ Chris:
I'm getting goosebumps thinking of some "professional" sharpening an old weapon... ![]() Having two older beauties which were ground down to get a sharp point, my heart is breaking every time I see them ![]() One is a "training weapon" for duels with a Klingenthal blade (around 1895), with the guard of o duelling weapon which used to have a flattened tip. Nevertheless a wonderful piece, but... not original any more... The sharping was done quite professional, I just found out when I checked the length of the weapon and compared it with other weapons. I've attached two pics. Coming back to the foil: perhaps the grooves on the grip were made to provide a grip for some kind of leather-wire binding ![]() this would keep the wire in it's place. All the best William |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#39 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 675
|
![]()
Hi William,
A very beautiful foil - Thanks for sharing. Cheers Chris |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#40 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 332
|
![]()
Beautiful indeed -
yet not a foil, but an epee, note the tri-blade. This is the main duelling weapon of the 19th century, along with the single shot pistol. The shallow hollow indicates an early blade (without a milled groove), the hilt combination suggests an age of 1860-1880's. I used to have a similar epee with a knight's head pommel but of iron rather brass, with a decorated steel dish guard, circa 1900. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#41 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 33
|
![]()
Always a pleasure
![]() As stated before: Someone tried to convert it into a "real" fencing weapon and seemed to have used some kind of cutter to sharpen the tip and part of the ricasso (nearly destroying the Klingenthal marking). @broadaxe Your dating is nearly correct. The bladesmith markings on the opposite side of the Klingenthal writing indicate 1895 as year of forging. Can you tell me since when the "milled groove" was used? I was quite sure that it was widely used after electric fencing was invented (for epee this was around 1936); because this made things easier for the forges to meet the requirements of this "new" sport. Although I own a blade most probably dating before that date. And may I ask how you draw the lines on your suggestion for the dating of the epee? Thanks in advance. William |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#42 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 332
|
![]()
Hmmm, I don't know exactly, but according to both Mr. Castanet and my good friend maestro Udi Carmi (The Israeli olympic fencing team coach and a fencing historian by himself), production of the old fashioned epee blade seized by 1940. The electric epee was indeed introduced in the 1936 Berlin Olympics but gained some use only about two decades later, and was reserved for official competitions only for long time.
The post 1940 epee blade has a deep v-shaped fuller, even in a "dry" blade (= non electric). Electric blade has additional deep narrow cuts at the ends of the fuller, to accomodate the conducting wire. I will try to look up for examples. By the way, check this fabulous foil here: http://cgi.ebay.com/NICE-FRENCH-19th...1%7C240%3A1318 |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#43 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 675
|
![]()
Hi William,
Broadaxe is absolutely right, I missed it, that is an epee and instead of having been vandalized, it is a sharp dueling weapon. I think that you have a valuable piece. Cheers Chris |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#44 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 33
|
![]()
@broadaxe
Thanks for the information. It seems quite logical to assume that electric epee fencing was reserved for competitions only (same goes for cable-less fencing today ). I wouldn't say that blades with a groove for the electric wire in the ricasso are automatically post 1940. If you check the pictures below, you will see, that the blade doesn't have a groove, but is fitted with a point d'arret in a shape used in the late 40ties and 50ties (if I'm not mistaken). Thanks for posting the link. Looks like a fine weapon even if I can't read the marking ![]() Which company used the "PR" marking? Does anyone know for sure? I would guess Prieur, but I have no proof so far... @ Chris Thanks for the flowers ![]() William |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#45 | ||
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 675
|
![]() Quote:
![]() ![]() ![]() Quote:
Cheers Chris |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#46 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 33
|
![]()
Your wish is my command
![]() I must admit that the picture is not taken from my weapon but from an auction on ebay. But the guard is identical to mine. The knights helmet and the glove are signs for knighthood and valour (a reminder to fight bravely and with honour during a duel). The so called fasces are a reminiscence to the Romans and related to the French revolution (many are stronger than one alone). The leaves on the one side are olive tree, reminders of the olympic idea (sport aspect) the other ones are oak which might point to the fencer wielding the blade to be hard and endurable. If someon knows the meaning of the fasces with the protuding hand, please let me know. Greetz William Last edited by William V.; 4th December 2008 at 05:58 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#47 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 675
|
![]() Quote:
Cheers Chris |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#48 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 33
|
![]()
HEUREKA! Finally at least a small path to follow to the light of knowledge
![]() @katana: The blade of your foil was most probably forged by a company named Cooper-Goodman. They produced the Chassepot bayonet (which was used between 1866-1874 by France but found many other countries copying it)... Check out this link (you can see the similar marking clearly): http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/1866_chassepot.htm This information might give a rough idea when the foil might be produced. If one takes into account that the firm might not be active for a long time, and might not have much experience with fencing weapons (referring to the strange POB), this could indicate that the foil may be quite rare.... ![]() So far for now. I hope someone can carry on the torch and finds more information on the firm itself. William |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#49 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 2,653
|
![]() Quote:
Well done and thank you William ![]() ![]() hopefully with this new 'lead' I can get find more information. Nice epee (that you posted) certainly has a more business-like blade. ![]() Kind Regards David |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#50 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 33
|
![]()
A pleasure
![]() but could you please post a picture of the tip? I'm interested how it was shaped... William |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#51 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 2,653
|
![]()
Hi William,
it seems "Cooper and Goodman" made firearms..and seem to have been based in Birmingham..found this... "......Mr. Goodman’s connection with the gun trade was of long standing. In 1838, when in the employ of the Scholefields, he entered into partnership with Mr. J.R. Cooper, and subsequently with that gentleman’s brother, Mr. Charles Cooper, the business being carried on at first under the name of J.R. Cooper and Co., and afterwards under that of Cooper and Goodman, until 1888....." http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:Y...lnk&cd=1&gl=uk So on that basis the blade was presumably manufactured , at the latest 1888 Here on this page , Lot 869 http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:b...lnk&cd=2&gl=uk "An UNUSUAL .500 Cal. double barrelled Medium Game Rifle by Cooper and Goodman" and half way down on this page... http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:n...lnk&cd=1&gl=uk "A fine and rare 1856 Pattern rifled service pistol, 25.5cm sighted barrel fitted with rear leaf sights, border engraved lock stamped "1858" over "TOWER" and with a Crown over "VR" at the tail, full stock stamped "WD" and "COOPER & GOODMAN", After hours of searching ....I'm all googled out ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() William will post a picture of the 'point' soon Kind regards David |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#52 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 33
|
![]()
Bad news...
I got in touch with a fellow blade collector who said, that the information on the "crown above c.g" needs to be updated... The crown is not in style of the era for the UK, additionally it is a fact that Cooper and Goodman always marked without a crown. He suspects the marking to have belgian origins. Sorry, to says so: but we have to start anew.... ![]() William |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#53 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 2,653
|
![]()
Hi William,
thanks for letting me know ![]() ![]() Here are the pictures of the point.(both magnified) Best Regards David . |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#54 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 33
|
![]()
Thanks for the pictures,
you are right, the tip looks quite original... I may have another lead on the marking ![]() Compare the crown on the following marking with your foil. The blade belongs to a sword produced in 1875 by the Fabrica Nacional de Toledo in Spain. ![]() All the best William |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#55 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 2,653
|
![]()
Hi William,
thanks for your continuing input ![]() ![]() ![]() http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:y...lnk&cd=1&gl=uk Perhaps he is mis-informed ....or he knows something we don't ![]() However, it was also stated that a number of Chassepots were manufactured in Belgium ......who would have thought a clearly marked blade could be so difficult to identify ![]() Quote:
I am glad it is not just 'wishful thinking' (on my part) that the point may be original to the piece ![]() Regards David |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#56 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]()
David, you have a PM.
Fernando |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#57 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 33
|
![]()
Hello @ all.
Unfortunately Mr Anthony Carter died in 2003... so we won't be able to contact him in regard of the marking. You won't believe how many "clearly marked" weapons are hard to identify.... for example: the above mentioned "PR" marking on the ebay link. Perhaps someone has a book on belgian sword markings, which could help identifying the "C.G". The point LOOKS original, but we are not able to verify it... so we must take the most probable solution to this problem ![]() All the best.... and keep looking/searching. William |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#58 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,885
|
![]()
I have just been rereading this thread, and it has developed into an absolutely magnificent example of discussion, presentation, interaction and supported observations that display what true weapons study is all about!!
This kind of joint effort in active research is a prime example of what this forum is meant to promote, where not only the participants learn together, but so do our membership and readers. As I mentioned in the beginning, there are few resources examining the history and typology of fencing weapons, especially pertaining to makers and suppliers, so it is great to have this thread developing.It is completely fascinating to see the joint participation and ongoing research in examining markings and even when the presumed outcome is not realized, moving on to other possibilities...its like watching forensics examination unfolding, and the unproductive trails stand as benchmarks as well. Thank you all so much!!! Please keep this going, its exciting to finally be able to learn so much on these fencing weapons, and have this thread develop as a resource for collectors future research. All very best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 7th December 2008 at 04:52 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#59 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 332
|
![]() Quote:
I'm posting here several pics of different types of blades to show differences: 1. Re-fitted dueling epee, came as loose parts without a knuckle bow. The present bow is new. Note the blade has a shallow wide canellure of the late 19th century type. Signed with a sytlized monogram. 2. All original grand epee - very similar blade signed crisply B.P.R. within a cartouche. Nickel-plated steel bowl guard, centered, nickel-plated faceted pommel, riveted tang, metal bound rayskin grip. 3. Point of the above epee - note how the blade turns from tri edge to square (where the arrow is) and tapers into a visciously sharp point. 4. Modern assembled dueling epee with a vintage 'intermadiate' blade - note deep & narrow milled canellure. 5. Electric blade. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#60 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 33
|
![]()
Thanks broadaxe for your post... nice weapons
![]() Especially the BPR duelling epee ![]() ![]() I think your "timeline" is correct. The only point in which I'm not fully d'accord is the following: I was convinced that Souzy was taken over by Soudet in the 1960's. Do you know for sure that they stopped producing during WWII? Do you mind posting pictures of the markings on the blades? All the best William |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|