Kaskara for Comment.

[Rick]

Jim and I both thank you Wolf .

[stephen wood]

...I saw a similar mark in a book of armourers' marks on Friday - it did not give a name only a place - Saxony. Also, regarding etched takoubas this image takes us back into legend - to the foundation of the worlds second-oldest monarchy....

[Wodimi]

Fantastic Stephen, North Nigeria, that makes sense. Where can I find the picture and did you know when the picture was made? Would be also great if you have the title of your armourers' marks book, or/and a scan from the mark.

Thanks
Wolf

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Wodimi

Fantastic Stephen, North Nigeria, that makes sense. Where can I find the picture and did you know when the picture was made? Would be also great if you have the title of your armourers' marks book, or/and a scan from the mark.

Thanks
Wolf

Please, let me add my request also .

This blade of mine seems quite finely made .
When I gently rest it against the side of a chair, point down, it quivers for 20 seconds or so.
The fuller is forged in .

It seems almost alive .

Rick

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rick

Jim and I both thank you Wolf .

Absolutely, thank you so much Wolf, fantastic insight!!! Very good thoughts on the Ottoman and Mamluk application, worthy of further research.
Both Rick and I have been on the trail of this mystery mark for a while now, and I'll try to find a photo of mine which is virtually identical, and claimed to be of the Ali Dinar armoury.

Stephen, excellently observed, and I believe the illustration is from "Nigerian Panoply" (I cannot recall the author at the moment). The thuluth etching was indeed used on the regalia swords of this monarchy, and the presence of such a decorated blade on a takouba is of course not surprising. There are a number of interesting anomalies which demonstrate the significant contact between the Sudan, the Sahara and Tuaregs, and Nigeria.

Still looking for the photo, fantastic input on this topic, thank you so much guys!

All the best,
Jim

[stephen wood]

...I think that the book was a copy of ARMOURERS MARKS Being a Compilation of Known Marks of Armourers Swordsmiths and Gunsmiths by Dudley Gyngell. I saw it in a bookshop.

The picture is indeed from Nigerian Panoply but it was posted in this forum before. The book is from the mid 1960's. I think that most of the takoubas which turn up in the UK are from Nigeria.

[katana]

Michael (Blalock) has just started a thread regarding Arabic swords....below is a picture he posted on that thread...it is taken in the Military Museum of Yemen..thank you Michael ...one of the pommels seems very familiar..


Regards David

[Rick]

The Piso Podang's pommel ??

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rick

The Piso Podang's pommel ??

Good call Rick! Thats what I'm looking at dead center, a piso podang with that distinct turbanesque pommel. Interestingly, like the tulwar, whose pommels are believed to represent variations of stupa in degree, perhaps these type pommels are also architectural in origin.

Best regards,
Jim

[katana]

Hi Rick and Jim ,
I am probably 'grasping at straws' but I cannot find another Kaskara with a 'remotely' similar pommel. The piso podang is generally considered to be 'Indian' influenced. A number of Sudanese weapons IMHO are also 'Indian' influenced (the haldie and the 'horned mace' spring to mind).
With the constant trade between India, the Arabs and North Eastern Africa ...'styles' would 'migrate'.

Afterall, why would a piso podang be displayed in a Yemen Millitary Museum

The pommel on my Kaskara seems quite rare and possibly influenced from, perhaps India. The question is, if this is correct, why would the owner/creator of this sword choose this design ? Why is it so different from the standardised pommel.
I have posted this on SFI asking if anyone had any ideas as to the origins of the pommel design .....I have received no replies

Regards David

[Rumpel]

Sorry to revive a dead thread, but I spent my lunch break salivating over the BM's Sackler Gallery today.

They have a beautiful silver-hilted kaskara on temporary display this week (they're rejigging the African weapons cases at the moment) with a gorgeous European-foliate design hammered-sliver hilt but similar pommel. The tag just said Sudan, 20th c, but I think that's a failure of description on their part. The (huge) throwing knives case had a tag saying, essentially, 'we have no idea what any of these are or mean...'

[katana]

Hi Rumpel,
thank you for for remembering this thread , I have tried to find an image on the web (of the sword you mentioned), but have been unsucessful. Do you have a picture or a link ? Thank you
Kind Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

Rumpel, I join David in thanking you for reviving this thread. The kaskaras and takoubas are topics many of us here have profound interest in, and I am honestly always saddened when these threads just stall and disappear into the archives. It is heartening to see interest in them, and I always look forward to new entries.
You are unfortunately right, there is always a good measure of lack of interest in pursuing accurate detail in many museums, as they often do not consider such detail worthy of budget issues or even worse, many museums have simply stored away many weapons for PC issues. I know there are many museum professionals out there who read here, and hope you all know, the many of you who take a serious professional approach are well recognized and very much appreciated.
As for the others, we can only hope they will also join in at some point. I know there are probably many of us out there who would gladly volunteer to assist in cataloguing items....I know of several right now doing just that.
Our gratitude goes out to all of you.

All the best,
Jim

[Edster]

This is my first post so kindly forgive any errors.

The stamp blade mark in an 8/9/09 exchange between Rick and Wodimi (Wolf) is the Fly or duran . It’s a bit of symbolic magic so the user can jump like a fly when fighting. See the attached photo of a similar version of the mark from the Kassala, Sudan Suq al Haddad circa 1984

Also, silver furniture on the sword handles also is magic in that it protects the user from sword wounds. Copper also protects, but silver trumps copper.

Thanks,
Edster

[Iain]

Hi Edster,

Interesting information in your post. Could you elaborate on the source or if it's from on the ground discussions you had in Sudan?

Very interesting subject for sure!

Best,

Iain

[Rumpel]

Hi David,

Remembering your kaskara isn't a problem; I just wish I could forget it. Jealousy's a terrible thing...



I tried to go to the BM in my lunch break today, but strikes worked against me. Having looked on the website (and it was the Sainsbury, rather than Sackler gallery ), the only kaskara viewable was this: http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore...ern/sword.aspx

It's similar, yet different (pommel especially). And it's 18th c, whereas the one I saw was definitely labelled as 20th c. Maybe I was wrong about the similarities- I was working from memory, I'm afraid-but it would definitely be worth you sending in a photo for them to puzzle over. The closest parallels to yours I can think of are this one, and the kaskara of Ali Dinar I was fortunate enough to once handle. I'm no expert, but I think you've stumbled across a high-status weapon. Did you have any luck with Durham, btw?

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Edster

This is my first post so kindly forgive any errors.

The stamp blade mark in an 8/9/09 exchange between Rick and Wodimi (Wolf) is the Fly or duran . It’s a bit of symbolic magic so the user can jump like a fly when fighting. See the attached photo of a similar version of the mark from the Kassala, Sudan Suq al Haddad circa 1984

Also, silver furniture on the sword handles also is magic in that it protects the user from sword wounds. Copper also protects, but silver trumps copper.

Thanks,
Edster

Thank you !
Duran, talismanic .

Interesting .

Rick

[Edster]

Iain,

I spent a week at the Kassala, Sudan blacksmith market in 1984 and did socio-economic research with the sword and knife makers there. Learned about the manufacturing processes as well as historic and cultural significance of sword and knife use. Hopefully, a paper I wrote of the experience will be shared on the EAA forum in the next week or so.

The info on the Fly motif was provided by swordsmiths and other knowledgable members of the market.

It was an exciting and rare opportunity to see how the kaskara swords were made much like they had always been made, at least since forged steel blades were worked.

Best regards,
Ed

[Iain]

Hi Ed,

Always very exciting to hear from people who've had the opportunity to do first hand research.

I can't wait to read your paper. The talismanic meanings behind some of the blade markings are something that quite a few people have speculated about but having hands on confirmation is amazing!

Really looking forward to learning more from your experiences.

Cheers,

Iain

[Edster]

Hi Iain,

Islam didn't get a good foothold in Sudan until the 14-15 Century. Also, Popular Islam as practiced by most folks in the countryside retained a lot of pre-Islamic elements and also tended toward Sufi mysticism. People did a lot of symbolic things to gain "baraka" or Allah's blessing including Koranic inscriptions and amulets to protect from this and that. Anything to reduce risk and increase self confidence in a highly uncertain environment, especially in war or just being out and about in a socially unpredictible environment. Also, if it were publically known that you had a sword with a silver wrapped handle your religo-magic protection would be greater than a potential attacker with just a leather wrapped one.

When I was there I carried an amulet or two myself and have always given money to begger women just to increase my chances of avoiding misfortune. In Islam to give money to the poor increases baraka or blessing.

Religo-magic isn't only popular in rural Islam. I have a replica of a cast bronze 700 B. C. Late Bronze - Early Iron Age axe head from the South Russia Steppes. It has two 1/8 inch iron rod serpentine inlayes on each face in form of snakes. Snake Cults were popular in the area at the time and in the period iron was more valuable than gold. Also, on the axe head are eight crudely engraved small fish. Fish represent the Underworld in the cosmology of the time and place.

There seems to me to be a parallel between the use of rare metals and religious inscriptions to protect one in battle. It may be rewarding to examine other weapons from other places/times to find and identify what talismen may be incorporated into the design. Items of material culture usually reflect some component of social culture as well.

Best regards,
Ed

[katana]

Originally Posted by Rumpel

Hi David,

It's similar, yet different (pommel especially). And it's 18th c, whereas the one I saw was definitely labelled as 20th c. Maybe I was wrong about the similarities- I was working from memory, I'm afraid-but it would definitely be worth you sending in a photo for them to puzzle over. The closest parallels to yours I can think of are this one, and the kaskara of Ali Dinar I was fortunate enough to once handle. I'm no expert, but I think you've stumbled across a high-status weapon. Did you have any luck with Durham, btw?

Hi Rumpel,
thanks for the reply and further info.

I suspect 'Jealousy' is something we all feel from time to time.....I certainly do....many formites have swords and weapons that should be home with me ...not them


I e-mailed Durham twice, but received no reply. There is a good chance that the correct department didn't recieve them...or perhaps IT security protocols sent my e-mails to a 'spam' folder.
I would love to follow this up....if you have a contact name or e-mail address at Durham that would help the 'cause'....could you PM them to me. Failing that perhaps 'snail' mail may work.

Kind Regards David

[katana]

Hi Edster,
hello and welcome to the forum . I have read your posts with interest .....and would love to hear more.

Regards David

[Edster]

Thanks, David. I really glad I lucked on to the EAA forum. Great informative posts and a great bunch of folks interested in sharing knowledge.

A couple of stylistic areas I like to see explored:

1.) Most of the kaskaras I saw in Kassala and in the Mahdi Museum in Omdurman had intergral "tassles" on the handles. Some of the photos shared on the forum have them while others do not. I wonder if tassles are time and or place of origin related. I have a silver mounted kaskara from Eastern Sudan supposedly circa 1915, plus two others with just leather from there as well. All three have tassles. I wonder if examples from Chad and Western Sudan are without.

2.) Some blades have talismic stamps like the Fly referenced in a post above. It would be neat to catalogue as many stamps as possible to assist in identification in time and place of origin is possible. It was told to me that the "Suliman" has five groves that extend down a third of the blade followed by a multi-rayed sun is the "Suliman Abu Shammish" (Father of the Sun). Also, the +O symbol is a Drum to build up courage while the Rampant Lion is a "Dukare Affringe" for brave men. Another one is a circle, sometimes two with a couple of small circles inside and a wiggly line inside. I don't recall what this one means, but it fairly common. I'm not aware of any special time or place criteria for these except I learned about them and saw samples in Kassala, Eastern Sudan in 1984. My inspection sample is rather limited. There must be several other examples in the Forum's collections or in reference books.

The beating of big tribal brass or copper?? drums was a big deal during the Mahdiya and any time tribal unity was needed. (Sort of like "calling out the clan" in Scottish history, I imagine. Many were buried after the British reconquest and their locations have been lost to the tribal groups and to history.

Take care,
Edster

[Iain]

Hi Ed,

Very interesting notes. In particular your comments about the +O markings. As these undoubtedly are derived from the common Solingen cross and orb markings. I find it fascinating the mark was not only applied by local smiths, but also co-opted for a specific talismanic intention. While it has been long assumed that European marks where applied locally as a sign of quality, I at least had been unaware that such specific meanings had been assigned to them.

I wonder if the same meanings cross apply to takouba blades... I have an old takouba blade with the cross and orb, however the application of the marks makes it somewhat suspect to me that they are European in origin. It would be interesting if similar talismanic meanings crossed over into Tuareg culture.

Where you aware of any locally applied running wolf markings and specific meanings attached to them in the kaskaras you saw?

Best,

Iain

[Edster]

Hi Iain,

I'm not familiar with the Soligen marks or takoubas except those posted on EAA. But in my opinion they are stylistically superior to the kaskara.

No doubt trans-saharra (sic) trade between Algeria and Chad and then to Western Sudan. Trans-Sahalian movement to the east as pilgrims travelled from west Africa across Sudan to Mecca for the haj. A lot of Hausa Hajjis settled in Sudan rather than go all the way back home. Also, the 40 Day Road from Kordofan to Eqypt was another trade link. Blades and design ideas no doubt flowed in all directions and were translated into the local "cultural currency". Don't forget the trade and warfare between Sudanic kingdoms and Abasinnia (sic, again). The Ethiopians had a higher culture and presumably better technology than the Sudanese.

Many of these travellers were of the same Sufi orders and the common membership was a strong basis of social relationships. Blacksmiths also were Sufis, even though they were marginalized by local leaderships. Travel and common social linkages would have been a major way for stylistic, talismic and technological transmission to take place. Testing of these notions on the ground is the really cool part of anthropology.

I wonder if there is a simple non-distructive test for blade carbon and other alloy content. Since most contemporary Kassala made kaskara blades are forged from Land-Rover and lorry leaf springs, it would be a good way of dating blades before and after the 1899 reconquest. I lot of "Mahdiya" swords were wrought iron and any locally carbonized blades would likely be highly variable in carbon content.

Wouldn't be neat to identify someone in Kassala blacksmith market with an email address or cell phone so we could just call them up and get a consultation directly from the local experts.

Best,
Edster

[stephen wood]

Very interesting. this thread has the O+, the lion and the fly - all associated, along with the death's head, with the Solingen maker Peter Kull. I am very pleased that the O+ is called a drum - I had thought that either the O+ or the comet mark might be the one described thus.

Burckhardt (in the region 1812-15) records that the Nouba word for sword is fareynga, and dukari is said by Cabot-Briggs to mean the half-moon marks. If dukari/dukare meant simply a mark then dukare affringe would mean frankish mark...

...I think the tassels might be a fairly recent phenomenon - I have yet to see an old illustration showing them. I have seen older swords which have the remains of plaited leather sword knots, or in one case, silk. One of the most common types of sword (1930's onwards?) is actually made with a recess below the pommel to hold the tassel.

The copper drums mentioned were recorded by the (late great) David Fanshawe in the 1960's and can be found on the CD Music of the Nile.

[katana]

Thanks to Aris (Rumpel), I have contacted Durham University. Unfortunately they could not provide further information, but have sent me a very nice image of Ali Dinar's Kaskara and a fantastic example it is . I have requested permission to post the picture here and am waiting their response.

Kind Regards David

[VANDOO]

HERE ARE A COUPLE MORE TO THROW INTO THE POST PERHAPS SOMETHING CAN BE LEARNED FROM THE DESIGNS OR MARKS.
UNFORTUNATELY I HAVE THE PICTURES BUT NO FURTHER INFO. ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WITH TAKEING PICTURES FROM THE INTERNET OFTEN THERE IS LITTLE INFO OR NOT ENOUGH ROOM TO WRITE IT AND ITS DATE AND SOURCE IN THE DESCRIPTION.

[katana]

Hi Vandoo,
very nice examples.....the lower Kaskara has ....well certainly looks like, the mark of the 'Lion of Judah'. Never seen this marking on a Kaskara before.... Ethiopian ??

Regards David

[stephen wood]

...yes it does look like the Moa Anbessa - Conquering Lion.

Have a look at this thread: one blade obviously Ethiopian, the other strongly possible.

An account of Addis Ababa in the late 19th century mentions:

"In the crowded corner devoted to the sword-sellers you may see a petty chief, with one or two trusty followers, testing the blade of the big, straight sword taken from the Dervishes, which will fetch as much as ten to fifteen dollars. Close by, other purchasers are examining the curve of an Ethiopian sword in its bright red scabbard, or perhaps choosing one from a pile of French blades made for the Ethiopian market. . . ."

The Ethiopian wall painting shows an Archangel with an interesting sword with the moon marking and a brass(?) hilt rather like the one posted.

The use of captured blades evidently worked both ways during the struggle between The Caliphate and Ethiopia.