A group of axes - Page 2

kronckew · 1st March 2013, 07:43 PM

yes, it's really a ciupaga, didn't think y'all would know that distinction. from the latter half of last century. the ciupaga has the distinctive shaped head & decorated haft. (my granny was from the area)

(Slovak: valaška, Hungarian: fokos, Polish: depending on region - ciupaga, rabanica, uobuszek, cekanka, Czech: valaška, Romanian: baltag, Ukrainian: бартка, топірець)

so is this one.

this is a proper fokos from budapest, hungary:

the fokos is more utilitarian. this one has a pattern welded head.

the same smith also made the head for the small poll axe in this view: it has an inserted damascus edge. i decided it would be happier as a camp axe/tomahawk rather than a fokos.

and a HC steel fokos/warhammer head i'm currently hafting. i designed it, he made it.

the greenish one has a small bronze axe head, from the balkans.

anyway, also known in english as a 'shepherd's axe'

broadaxe · 1st March 2013, 08:23 PM

I liked the last one (hammer head). Have a bunch of fokos myself. Have you seen the current production "tactical fokos" by United Cutlery? http://www.knivesanddefensedepot.com...nse/UC2905.jpg

M ELEY · 1st March 2013, 09:17 PM

Wow! Glad I resurrected this old thread! I didn't know the difference between ciapaga versus the fokos, the latter of which I'd heard of. I especially like the bullova, an ax used by the Wild Tribes in the Chotta Nagpur region of India. Always thought of getting one for a conversation piece! Thanks for posting the pic of that Brit fire ax. Here, we can see the general pattern of the evolved boarding ax as a fire tool, but with a thinner blade and spike. Appreciate it, gents!

kronckew · 1st March 2013, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadaxe

I liked the last one (hammer head). Have a bunch of fokos myself. Have you seen the current production "tactical fokos" by United Cutlery? http://www.knivesanddefensedepot.com...nse/UC2905.jpg

they also make an anti-zombie 'tactical' spear (in stainless-yuck!). just saw that one tonite on another forum, same 'ninja' guy with the balaclava.

kronckew · 2nd March 2013, 12:20 PM

more along the lines of this forum,
here is how my latest 3 fokos heads were made in hungary:

Youtube: Fokos Making

His forge is made to closely match a real medieval design. this is about as close as you can get to the real thing. his heads are (mostly) based on historical designs. i see he's added my warhammer design to his product list on his website

it's sort of historical

fernando · 2nd March 2013, 01:22 PM

This is not a smith, but a Mister Smith

junker · 2nd March 2013, 04:29 PM

Hi, CC,
yes there is some confusion about this form of fire axes.
There are definitve fire axes but in WW 1 they were caried in field also.
I saw an Photo of a soldier who has one of them.
It will be hard to decide if one item was taken to war or not.
I heard that in the early days of trench war the soldiers take what they can get from home (specially knives)
Fireman will maybe take their axes often.
But till today I ve never heard of one with an official acceptance mark but in the Holder maybe

Dirk

M ELEY · 2nd March 2013, 10:32 PM

Hello, Junker. Was hoping you might pop up on this one. So now, apart from all the confusion of what is a boarding ax and what is a fire ax, we can now throw in that early fire implements were carried into war! I would imagine that boarding axes from the early era were used as early fire axes and they might have been put to use in modern warfare as well. Sigh-

.
Goes back to what I deduced earlier. Unless it is the classic boarding pattern with govt markings, it could be a private purchase maritime boarding piece or it could be fire. No clearer answer has come to me in the last decade I've been studying these...

CutlassCollector · 3rd March 2013, 05:28 PM

Hi Dirk, thanks for your answer to my question and yes that explains the pictures on the web of the fire axes being used in WWI. It all makes a lot more sense now - many thanks. I wonder if you have an approximate date of when these axes were first made?
Kronckew - you have some great pieces, many types I had not even heard of - I am thinking that although some may be forged today they may well become classics tomorrow.
I have heard it said that almost all cultures had swords of some description and the same must be true of axes but with many 'outdoor' trades having their own variation from roofer to trapper. And amazing to think that they have been a viable weapon from stoneage flint axe to vietnam hawk.

kronckew · 4th March 2013, 08:38 AM

one of the lesser known roman weapons, the axe was probably more responsible for roman victories than the gladius. while not normally used for direct combat, it could, and was, so used. i have read accounts of legionaries who, when they ran out of arrows, slingshot, and pilum, threw their dolabra with great effect. one legionary retrieving his on the advance after the morale of the enemy broke which had replaced the head of a celt, noting others that had broken shields or arms. it was a bit cumbersome for the more direct close combat favoured by the legion, requiring a lot of room to swing.

the dolabra, a largish pick-axe, was however mostly used for engineering, which was a real winner of battles, entrenching, construction of roads, bridges, fortifications, siege works, and - the god of all battles - artillery.

1st March 2013, 07:43 PM	#31
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	yes, it's really a ciupaga, didn't think y'all would know that distinction. from the latter half of last century. the ciupaga has the distinctive shaped head & decorated haft. (my granny was from the area) (Slovak: valaška, Hungarian: fokos, Polish: depending on region - ciupaga, rabanica, uobuszek, cekanka, Czech: valaška, Romanian: baltag, Ukrainian: бартка, топірець) so is this one. this is a proper fokos from budapest, hungary: the fokos is more utilitarian. this one has a pattern welded head. the same smith also made the head for the small poll axe in this view: it has an inserted damascus edge. i decided it would be happier as a camp axe/tomahawk rather than a fokos. and a HC steel fokos/warhammer head i'm currently hafting. i designed it, he made it. the greenish one has a small bronze axe head, from the balkans. anyway, also known in english as a 'shepherd's axe' Last edited by kronckew; 1st March 2013 at 09:00 PM.

2nd March 2013, 04:29 PM	#37
junker Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 140	Fire axe Hi, CC, yes there is some confusion about this form of fire axes. There are definitve fire axes but in WW 1 they were caried in field also. I saw an Photo of a soldier who has one of them. It will be hard to decide if one item was taken to war or not. I heard that in the early days of trench war the soldiers take what they can get from home (specially knives) Fireman will maybe take their axes often. But till today I ve never heard of one with an official acceptance mark but in the Holder maybe Dirk

1st March 2013, 08:23 PM	#32
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	I liked the last one (hammer head). Have a bunch of fokos myself. Have you seen the current production "tactical fokos" by United Cutlery? http://www.knivesanddefensedepot.com...nse/UC2905.jpg

1st March 2013, 09:17 PM	#33
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Wow! Glad I resurrected this old thread! I didn't know the difference between ciapaga versus the fokos, the latter of which I'd heard of. I especially like the bullova, an ax used by the Wild Tribes in the Chotta Nagpur region of India. Always thought of getting one for a conversation piece! Thanks for posting the pic of that Brit fire ax. Here, we can see the general pattern of the evolved boarding ax as a fire tool, but with a thinner blade and spike. Appreciate it, gents!

2nd March 2013, 12:20 PM	#35
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	more along the lines of this forum, here is how my latest 3 fokos heads were made in hungary: Youtube: Fokos Making His forge is made to closely match a real medieval design. this is about as close as you can get to the real thing. his heads are (mostly) based on historical designs. i see he's added my warhammer design to his product list on his website it's sort of historical

2nd March 2013, 01:22 PM	#36
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	This is not a smith, but a Mister Smith

2nd March 2013, 10:32 PM	#38
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Hello, Junker. Was hoping you might pop up on this one. So now, apart from all the confusion of what is a boarding ax and what is a fire ax, we can now throw in that early fire implements were carried into war! I would imagine that boarding axes from the early era were used as early fire axes and they might have been put to use in modern warfare as well. Sigh- . Goes back to what I deduced earlier. Unless it is the classic boarding pattern with govt markings, it could be a private purchase maritime boarding piece or it could be fire. No clearer answer has come to me in the last decade I've been studying these...

3rd March 2013, 05:28 PM	#39
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 330	Hi Dirk, thanks for your answer to my question and yes that explains the pictures on the web of the fire axes being used in WWI. It all makes a lot more sense now - many thanks. I wonder if you have an approximate date of when these axes were first made? Kronckew - you have some great pieces, many types I had not even heard of - I am thinking that although some may be forged today they may well become classics tomorrow. I have heard it said that almost all cultures had swords of some description and the same must be true of axes but with many 'outdoor' trades having their own variation from roofer to trapper. And amazing to think that they have been a viable weapon from stoneage flint axe to vietnam hawk.

4th March 2013, 08:38 AM	#40
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	one of the lesser known roman weapons, the axe was probably more responsible for roman victories than the gladius. while not normally used for direct combat, it could, and was, so used. i have read accounts of legionaries who, when they ran out of arrows, slingshot, and pilum, threw their dolabra with great effect. one legionary retrieving his on the advance after the morale of the enemy broke which had replaced the head of a celt, noting others that had broken shields or arms. it was a bit cumbersome for the more direct close combat favoured by the legion, requiring a lot of room to swing. the dolabra, a largish pick-axe, was however mostly used for engineering, which was a real winner of battles, entrenching, construction of roads, bridges, fortifications, siege works, and - the god of all battles - artillery.