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Old 28th July 2005, 12:44 PM   #31
Freddy
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Couldn't it be that all depends on the appreciation given by the people. A man can start as 'pandai keris', but if his work is really good and a lot of people appreciate it, I guess, it's possible that he obtains the status of 'empu'. Then he is seen by all as a 'master of his craft'.

This, of course, not only goes for keris makers, it's appliable to all craftsmen.
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Old 29th July 2005, 01:40 AM   #32
marto suwignyo
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I apologise for being less than clear in what I have written.

I have attempted to be very specific in my explanation of the both the word "empu", and way in which it applies to the people I mentioned.It would appear that I have failed.

I shall try again.

Empu Suparman was a part of the heirarchy of the Kraton Surakarta Hadiningrat.
He held rank within the Kraton heirarchy, the names bestowed upon him by Sinuhun indicated his calling and assigned duties within that heirarchy.
Until the time of his death he was the official empu of the Kraton Surakarta.

Empu Djeno has a name bestowed by the Kraton Yogyakarta, but which I would need to look through reference material to find. That name will incorporate components that will clearly indicate his calling and duties within the Kraton heirarchy. He will also hold a rank within the Kraton heirarchy.Additionally, Empu Djeno claims descent from a line of empus.

Pauzan Pusposukadgo was given the name "Pusposukadgo" by the Kraton Surakarta. The components of this name are "Puspo" and "su" and "kadgo". The component "kadgo" indicates his calling within the Kraton heirarchy. "Kadgo" is a Javanese literary term for "keris"; it appears in Old Javanese, Kawi, and Sanskrit, where meanings vary from "keris" to "pedang" and "sword".This name clearly identifies Pauzan as an armourer. The fact that he has chosen not to be called an empu is a reflection of his religious committment, nothing to do with the recognition of his skills. Pauzan Pusposukadgo also holds a rank within the heirarchy of the Kraton Surakarta.

Empu Mangku Wije is a heriditary empu. As I explained in my earlier post, in Bali the empus were not a part of the Kraton system, but rather members of a clan apart from the rest of Balinese society. They provided their services upon request. Empu Mangku Wije has the right to call himself "empu" because of his line of descent, and because of his membership of the Pande clan, and because of his occupation in the making of Balinese ritual implements, tools, and weapons, including keris.

There can be no question that these four men are entitled to be known as "Empu".

However, as I also advised in my previous post:- "---however, there were instances of famous empus who were not designated thus by a Kraton, but rather came to be known as empu by the wider community.---"

Of course a person who is the descendant of a line of empus cannot call himself an empu if he is in fact a bookkeeper, but if that person works as an empu, in Bali he has the right to call himself an empu. In Jawa the designation of empu should come from the Kraton, where it will be indicated by the name given by Sinuhun at the time a Kraton rank is bestowed. But it must be noted, that in historic times some people were known as empus who never worked under the aegis of a kraton.

I trust that this further explanation clarifies the matter.
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Old 29th July 2005, 03:19 AM   #33
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Terima kasih Marto for the outstanding post and for further enhancing/clearing my understanding especially on the part of Balinese Empus not being part of the kraton system. I didn't know that. In rereading your preceding posts I realised I've missed a few salients points highlighted by you earlier. My apologies. I guess if the official kraton status of those few noted names cannot be disputed, they are Empus. Again you've also highlighted "But it must be noted, that in historic times some people were known as empus who never worked under the aegis of a kraton" which is again noted.

I'm aware of Djeno's descend claim to a line of Empus (if indeed verifiable) but not too sure of the circumstances to his kraton yogyakarta title. My saying so because things appear to be more for commercial reasons these days...

Last edited by John; 29th July 2005 at 04:44 AM. Reason: additions
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Old 29th July 2005, 04:46 AM   #34
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That was informative. Thanks Marto.

Last edited by Alam Shah; 29th July 2005 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 29th July 2005, 09:17 AM   #35
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I agree with you, Marto, that "pusaka" in correct, normal, daily usage, might means heirlooms or inheritance. But I speaking about a very specific "pusaka" term, which is, I observe, used amongs keris experts in Java. So it's only exclusively used for "tosan aji", by those who understand it, and should not be extended to any other meanings. Certainly, it is not listed on the dictionary . Any "commoners" in Java, that is, non-"student-of-kerises" , might use those normal daily usage.

Many keris experts believe that it was the empus' intention which made a keris a pusaka or not. Times and changed in ownership cannot and will not change this intention inherent to the keris, but the owner certainly can change how he treats the pieces. So, I'm talking about "inherent pusaka values in the blade", not how the owner treat it, or acquire it. Someone may treats his keris(es) as pusaka while the keris itself, in fact, was not intended to be treated as so by the maker himself. But a keris which was intended to be a pusaka by it's maker, will still be as such, no matter how the owner treat it.

As the making of pusaka need a lot of effort, (materially, technically, and spiritually, not even to mentions times), which were very different to the making of other so-so kerises, any experienced keris connoiseurs should and have to be able to know, what the empu's intention really was when he hold a blade. He/she should also have to be able to judges, whether empu's intention in the blade "failed" or "succeded". In short, whether the "intention" became "reality", or not. It should shows the empu's mastery in technical and spiritual aspect. Not every intention became reality, we all know it

The traditions classified kerises' intended use as "ageman" (literally : agem =to wear, that means daily usage: for proper dressing, souvenir, exhibition,etc), senjata (literally : weapons), and "pusaka", which should bear the ageman and senjata qualities, plus a lot lot more as I mentioned in previous posting. It's oke to wear a pusaka-rated keris on daily usage, but it may cost you a lot if you loose it . But the "ageman"-rated keris should not be treated as pusaka, while it is in fact OK, but it's just "unproper", as it was not intended as so.

If we talk about Kraton's pusaka, we should consider also the political circumstances. Kraton used the pusaka as their legitimation to govern, sometimes (or always?) accompanied with a lot mystical legends and history. Well, King Arthur was doing such a thing also, wasn't he ?
Even so, the Kraton should pick their pusakas very carefully. The pusaka's quality should be so high, that no any commoner would match it. They should also employ the best living empus on their court, to add their pusakas, and thus adding the "magical powers" and then, legitimation. As Indonesia became a republic, the Kraton lost their power and thus the practices lost it's importances. Losing the power, the court also could not afford to support the living of empus and his assistant, and the support to the art was lost.

Today, Kraton Jogjakarta has no formal empu, and thus, Empu Djeno, until today, bear no name/title from Jogjakarta Court, or any court,(yes, I've verified it to my friend who is the court's servant and also keris expert when I write this post), while in fact, Sultan Hamengkubuwono IX himself personally (not on behalf of Kraton) commisioned a keris to him, using Prambanan meteor. Djeno would be the last living empu who is still practizing traditional methods, including fasting, make the offering, and chanting the mantras. Living celibate, he is now assisted by his nephew, Sungkowo. Actually, it is Sungkowo who do the "hard work", since Djeno is around 70 years old and suffering breathing difficulties, perhaps caused by breathing charcoal fumes for years. Djeno is the youngest son of Empu Supowinangun, the official empu of Kepatihan (prime minister's office) of Jogjakarta. His lineage is reliable, because the Ngenta-ngenta village is a well-known empu's village, and there are the graveyard especially devoted to empus, which many of them, are Djeno ancestors. Supowinangun also a capable empu, as his works reveal (I've seen an authentic ones). But Supowinangun never taught the "empu-hood" to Djeno on purpose. Djeno was learning by doing, assisting his father.

Just for information, the are two kind of Court Servant (Abdi Dalem) in Jogjakarta's Court, first the "Abdi Dalem Kaprajan" (praja=government), which consist of Abdi Dalems who are still active in civil/military services, the second is "Abdi Dalem Panakawan" (pana=to witness, to know, kawan=friend), which consist of Abdi Dalems with other occupation in community. The Kraton Jogjakarta ranks today are (as I recall, might miss some) : Jajar, Bekel (Raden/Mas Bekel), Lurah (Raden/Mas Lurah), Wedana (Raden/Mas Wedana), Riya (Raden/Mas Riya), Tumenggung (Kanjeng Raden/Mas Tumenggung). KRT would be the highest. For Kaprajan, the rank would be matched to his service, e.g. the Lt. Col. in military would be titled KRT ("Raden" only for those who able to show hereditary lineage to a king, commoners would be assigned "Mas"), while Panakawan must follow the order from the lowest, just like the military serice. Thus, since Djeno have not enlisted himself as Abdi Dalem, the Jogjakarta Court didn't give him any title/rank/name, until now.

Thus, any other keris makers bearing title from Kraton would be from Surakarta Court. Among them is Mas Lurah Pusposukadgo (or Fauzan, as mentioned by Marto), an antique/keris dealer who become keris maker. Today, he makes keris no more. Others are Suparman (I forgot the title), was a keris collector, Subandi (i forgot the title also), a lecturer in STSI Surakarta who teach a keris making, once a student of Fauzan, KRT Sukoyodipuro and Hartono from Surabaya, was an antique/keris dealer, and founded the Besalen Condroaji, with many students/followers in Madiun and Malang, East Java. As I could recall, while they bear the Kraton Surakarta's title (and thus a "Formal Kraton's Empu"), but they never made a pusaka commisioned by Kraton Surakarta. Some of them, buying the "saton" or half-finished kerises from Madura and just do the cold-working/finishing. By doing this, they may cut-off the forging failure (which may quite often, just ask the damascus blademakers) which may cost a lot. Most of them working on Surakarta nem-neman style, if not copying. A fine Jogjakarta style is a rarity, probably because no example for them to copy. (I will not gives a comment to "commercial", whether it's the empu, or the title itself)

In Bali, while there are some court, (Gianyar, Karangasem, Singaraja and Klungkung, amongs them) the best pieces were made in the Klungkung Court. (Balinesse collectors say this, not me. So if you need a proof, I suggest you go to Bali this summer, )

To became the master empus (not so-so empu), ones, at least, should fullfil these requirements :
1. Very sound mastery in technical aspect on making kerises/edged weapons, these including (but not limited to): choosing the materials, preparing, forging, cold working and tempering. In the old days, these knowledges might be kept as a secret (in fact, "making weapon" is still a secret today, consider the nuclear weapon. Making very fine weapons, in the old days, might be treated as such). So, It was only the direct line of descendant (preferably famous empus) or a sound apprenticeship would guarantee this.
2. Mastery on keris's symbolistic languages and philosophy. That's why some dhapur, like Nagas, are very rare. Those dhapurs were reserved for the court members only. Any Master Empus would refuse the commoners who commisioned these. In fact, Traditional Empus would always asking the date of birth, hereditary lineage, occupation and the particular wish(es) of those who commisioned the pusaka-rated keris, if he can afford to commisioned one, then match this information to one of the dhapur and pamor he considered "proper". (today, only Empu Djeno who still doing this)
3. Very sound sense of art, especially in shape's harmony/balance. Might only learn by "handling the fine pieces", which unfortunatly, held by Kraton. "Mutrani" practices (copying the fine old work) would be the way for empu to master this sense.
4. Last but not least, "spiritualy capable".
To be able to make a masterpieces, this requirement also has to be fullfiled :
5. Have an access to best materials exist. (good iron and steel might be regulated by the court, just like the uranium today . Its also cost a lot).

Thus, patronage from Kraton for master empus seems inevitable, and indeed, the kratons themselves seek the best empu exist. Any master empus who is unwilling to gave the service to the court might be considered as a dissident.
Today, to became a master empu, someone seems had to have at least a doctoral degree in metallurgy, philosophy, art and "spiritual", all at once.

Once again, cultural diffrences may apply
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Old 29th July 2005, 11:12 AM   #36
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Boedhi Adhitya, an enlightening comment. Lots of insights. Thanks.
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Old 29th July 2005, 12:12 PM   #37
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Hi Boedhi, apa khabar? It's heartening to hear from members based in Java such as yourself and Marto and taking the time and trouble to share invaluable stuff/information. It's great that we put as much on the table for us to digest and perhaps cross-check/verify where possible. It's indeed stimulating, interesting as well as enlightening. Thanks.
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Old 29th July 2005, 02:24 PM   #38
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I accept that as a member of a keris society based in Yogyakarta Bapak Boedhi Aditya has presented the meaning of the word "pusaka" as it is used by members of the society to which he belongs.

I regret that I am unable to agree that the term "pusaka", when applied to a keris is in fact widely accepted in Jawa as a term to indicate quality in a keris.

The pusaka keris could be expected to be of superior quality, as in its cultural context as a binding agent, the necessary qualities would only be able to have been brought into the keris by a maker fully conversant with the required ritual, however, simply because a keris is of adequate quality to allow it to be on a par with the expected quality in a pusaka keris, this does not make it a pusaka keris.

I do not challenge the right of any group of people to initiate their own jargon to simplify discussion of a shared interest, however, that jargon only has value and meaning within the group which has adopted its use. The meaning carried by that jargon within the group cannot be extended to the wider cultural or societal context.

It may be accepted that within the group of which Pak Boedhi Aditya is a part, the word "pusaka", as applied to a keris, or other item of tosan aji, carries with it the measure of quality. However, in spite of the claim that this is general usage throughout Jawa by all adequately educated students of the keris, in my experience , this is not the case. It may be so in Pak Boedi`s group. It may even be so in Yogyakarta. It is not so in some other places.

The qualification used by Pak Boedhi of "inherent pusaka values in a blade" I find quite acceptable.
This clarifies that the term "pusaka" as used within Pak Boedhi`s group has a meaning that relates to quality.
But again, this level of quality does not make a keris a pusaka:- what it makes it is a keris with inherent pusaka values, that is, a certain level of quality, both physical and perhaps esoteric.

My quote of Pakubuwana I in my previous post tells us exactly what a pusaka is:- it is something that binds the current custodian of the pusaka to his forebears, and to members of his kin group who are still living. In 1708 this was understood by Pakubuwana I , and would equally have been understood by the Javanese people whom he ruled. In the cultural decline which has occurred since 1708, this meaning has been lost, and now we have the term being used in some places as a measure of quality.

It is a phenomenon of societal development that this development seems to almost invariably go together with the erosion of cultural values.Bearing this in mind, it is understandable that the concept of "pusaka quality" could easily replace the true meaning of pusaka, and that the true spiritual meaning of exactly what a pusaka keris is, be forgotten.

In respect of the status of Djeno Harumbrojo, I stand corrected.
I had assumed that he had entered the heirachy of the Kraton Yogyakarta, and thus had been given rank and title. Apparently I was wrong. I apologise if my misstatement of fact has caused any inconvenience . I can only excuse this by saying that my base of knowledge and experience is not Yogyakarta.

In respect of Pauzan, he was not an antique dealer, prior to becoming a maker of keris, he was a night bus driver. His wife was, and is an antique dealer, and he assisted his wife on a part time basis when the antique business was begun, in , I think 1973 or 1974. Currently the correct form of address for Pauzan is Bp. KRT.H. Pauzan Pusposukadgo.It is many years since he carried the rank of lurah. I have known Pauzan as a good friend for more than thirty years.

Bp. KRT. Suparman Supawijaya (almarhum), was not a keris collector. He started life as a shoemaker, he became a soldier, then a dealer in precious stones and wesi aji, finally he became a maker of keris and other wesi aji, I had the good fortune to be a close friend of Bapak Suparman for the 14 years immediately preceeding his decease.

Subandi is one of the "anak-anak ASKI". The others are Yanto, Pandi, Widodo, Kamdi, Bagio, and of course, Yantono.The STSI was the ASKI, prior to its status being changed in the mid 1980`s.

I could be wrong, but my current information is that Subandi is not employed as a lecturer. He was certainly never taught by Pak Pauzan.

When the keris school was set up in the ASKI, as a part of the faculty of plastic arts (ie, sculpture), and under the leadership of Pak Yohanes Yantono, both Pak Parman and Pak Pauzan were approached to act as lecturers. They both agreed, however, neither were ever called to lecture. This is something that made both men feel slighted and has caused ill feeling until today within the keris community in Solo.

In fact, the only teacher of keris art is Pak Yantono, and he has not had a pupil in years.Pak Yantono could never be considered an empu; he is of the Katholic faith and by definition is culturally unsuited to be considered as an empu.
The total number of people who have graduated as makers of keris could be counted on the fingers of two hands, and none currently ply their trade, but prefer to use their qualification to work in other pursuits, as factory managers, salesmen , pigeon breeders, and so on.
Pak Yantono still makes the occasional keris, but he is now over fifty years of age, and is the head of his faculty, and prefers work more in accord with his changed status.

I do not know Pak Sukoyodipuro or Pak Hartono personally, and I have not heard mention of either of these gentlemen from my friends within the Surakarta Kraton community, nor from people within the keris world in Solo, except that I do know of Pak Sukoyodipuro as a maker of keris.
My knowledge in this respect could be flawed, and I will certainly follow through on this question.
It seems incredible to me that Pak Sukoyodipuro could have achieved the rank of KRT in such a short space of time, and especially whilst not living within Surakarta; it normally takes many years to achieve this rank.
Of course, since the decease of Pakubuwana XII, there has been a considerable amount of confusion in Kraton affairs in Surakarta.

Regarding Bali, the distinction between "in the Kraton", and "for the Kraton" is important.
I repeat:- the empus of Bali were not members of the heirarchy of any kraton. They were members of the Pande clan , having their own priests, and outside the Balinese system of caste. This is well documented in the literature.



To recap on the core matters under discussion, which I understand to be:-
1) the meaning of "pusaka keris",
2) the meaning of "empu"

In respect of pusaka keris.
I accept that Pak Boedhi Aditya and his group of keris fanciers in Yogyakarta have attached a meaning to "pusaka keris" that equates this term to a measure of quality.
I do not accept that within the context of Javanese culture this is a correct interpretation of the term.

In respect of empu.
My original definition stands, and I complement Pak Boedhi upon his expansion of my definition by provision of a further explanation of the qualities required of an empu.
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Old 29th July 2005, 05:33 PM   #39
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I am happy to see Boedhi Adhitya and Marto Suwignyo bringing more precise information to the Forum in regard to the meaning of the word Pusaka in the Malay world (I use this term to include more of the people in the entire area rather than just the people of Java who were the people from whom I learned what little I know of this topic.)

This topic has been addressed before in the past by both Dave Henkel and I who are both really outside of the culture although Dave now and I at one time had some close contact with it. Dave, in addition, brought up the fact that this term is spread over more objects than only the keris which sometimes gets lost in discussions concerned with that specific object and that, besides the Kraton quality material and that of the other members of the court, the term permutes throughout all members of the culture down to the village level. This is as it should be as the Kraton has traditionally set the standards for the rest of the population.

I think that with more information available, members will begin to get a better sense of the real meaning of the term and thus use it more discriminately in the future.
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Old 1st August 2005, 08:58 AM   #40
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Pak Marto, I absolutely agree with you. The meaning of "pusaka", as I mentioned before, should not and cannot be extended to a wider cultural or social context. This is not, as Pak Marto said, a correct term within the Javanese culture context. Any sane sociologist or anthropologist should not use the pusaka's meaning as I described before on their work In fact, I suggest they should find their own meaning, since it is still an interesting subject.

Once again Pak Marto is correct. What I really want to describe was "the qualities of which keris rated as pusaka, should have". This might be a general guidelines for traditional keris "collectors", as described by Mr. Haryono Guritno as "Tuh - Si - Rap - Puh - etc,..etc,..." In fact, only a very-very little "real pusaka keris" (that is, kerises which are really treated as pusaka by their owner) belong to Javanese peoples which may meets such tight requirements. Most of them, belongs to the kraton's families or associated with them. To find one of this pieces really pain in the ass. If you find one, just jump and get it But to recognize it, you should have some knowledges, don't you ? Without knowledges, the pusakas may only pass you by.

It is correct that pusaka term as I describe may only applied to "very inner circles", that is, keris experts who have access and have seen by themselves the examples of keris pusaka belongs to kraton, or at least, some pusaka belongs to Kraton families which once belongs to Kraton. Without seeing ones (or twos, the more the better ), the meaning hardly being understood. Even so, those who have access, not necessarily understand. As I mention before, consider the pusaka as a book. The ones who is "illiterate", will never be able to "read" it. Mr. Sugeng Wiyono, a Kedaulatan Rakyat newspaper's reporter, write a book entitled "Jimat Ngucap, Pusaka Kandha", which might means "If you have an amulet (=Jimat), then you have to cast a mantra/spell (=Ngucap=to speak) to make it "work", but if you have a Pusaka, the Pusaka itself will teach you a lesson(=Kandha=to tell). You just have to sit, and "watch/listen" " The Pusaka mentioned here means a keris, not other pusaka such as a gamelan or ricefields He gains his understanding on pusaka, he claims, by studying under the direction of the elders.

"Tosan Aji" might means "worthy Iron" or "honourable/respectable/adorable iron". It MUST have such qualities to became worthy/respected ones, not only depends on it's history. The very carefull and cautious traditional collector would then examine the keris history, especially by examining the "fate" of the owner before him. Were the owner life in prosperity or were they doomed with bad luck, living unharmoniously, or eventually, having a disease and death. Once it pass the qualification, then it worth to be called and treated as a Pusaka. That is, we can take "a lesson or benefit(=tuah)" or any spiritual meaning from them, whether it's philosophically, spiritually, or even more, "magically". This lessons/benefits are REAL (now I'm really talking about esoteric ). Any who didn't qualified, while it worth preserving/collecting, should not be treated as pusaka, since they have nothing to share, and thus, no benefit/lesson could be taken. If we receive it as an inheritance, but didn't pass "the exam", then, we should treat it as inheritage, something that connect us to the pass or families or something else, but we shouldn't expect "the lesson/benefit" from them.
This argument may only be understood and accepted with an example and wide explanation, which I think, may take a lot of bandwidths, and should not be tried. Even in the old days, this explanation/understanding would only be teached privately (and still that way today), while the commoners would be only consuming "the myth" and "legends" .

Today, only a very limited traditional keris collectors/lovers/connoiseurs/or fancier (as Pak Marto said), might exercise this understanding. Even in Jogjakarta. Most of the peoples, if not nearly all, who pay attention to kerises (in Java particularly) expecting for magical/ mystical or spiritual benefit keris might brought. Thus, they would be a subject of fraud by irresponsible "dukun" or "paranormal elders". I've seen a lot of victims, some of them brought newly made keris being told as Majapahits, some brought a pieces of brass, cast like keris, some even brought a pieces of iron plate from an oil drum, shaped like keris, and they call it "pusaka". I've even met a local official brought newly made keris with certificate stating that his keris is a Majapahit made and was a kraton surakarta heirloom, signed by a KRT. He himself saw the keris was taken from the "gedong pusaka" (heirloom's hall) of Kraton Surakarta, then was given to him. It is very sad to say, most of Javanese today do not understand about kerises/tosan aji. They even don't know what it's look alike, especially among the youth. Many are very afraid to the kerises as such, that even to open the cupboard containing the keris they're really in fear, not to mention to draw it from the scabbard.

Unfortunately, many of those who really knows has passed away, and those who didn't understand claim to be understand. I don't claim myself to be understand, not even an expert. I just conveying what I've learnt, and realizing that there are even more to learn. And fortunately, The Great Empus had left us The Book, that is, their great works. Like the elders said "Trust no one, just read The Book"

Well, cultural differences may apply.

Best Regards to all

Last edited by Boedhi Adhitya; 1st August 2005 at 10:00 AM. Reason: added and changing
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Old 1st August 2005, 09:38 AM   #41
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Arrow The works of Supowingangun and more

The first keris is the work of Supowinangun, the father of Empu Djeno Harumbrojo, the last living empu today. The keris was commisioned by KRT Puspodiningrat, The son of Prince Puspodiningrat, around 1930. Inherited by the owner today. (the owner certainly not me ! I'm just a "commoner" )
Dhapur : Sinom Wora-wari
Pamor : Ron gendhuru sungsang wengkon (gendhuru leaves, inverted, within border.)
Tangguh : Ngenta-ngenta (the village where Supowinangun came from).

The second is a keris once belongs to KGPA Mangkubumi, the eldest brother of Sultan Hamengkubuwono VII. It was commissioned by the Mangkubumi himself, and the work is done in his own workshop. Thus, the tangguh is Mangkubumen, ca. late 19 c. Inherited by the owner today.
Dhapur : Jalak Sangu Tumpeng.
Pamor : Tri-warna (three color, that is, three different pamor in a blade)
Tangguh : Yogyakarta HB VII - Mangkubumen.

The third is a keris once belongs to GPH Hangabehi, the eldest son of Sultan Hamengkubuwono VIII. Even so, this keris was made in Kraton Yogyakarta, commisioned by the Sultan Hamengkubuwono VII himself.
Dhapur : Naga Siluman
Pamor : Ron gendhuru wengkon (Gendhuru leaves, within border)
Tangguh : Yogyakarta HB VII ca late 19 c.

I do sorry for the qualities of pictures. Pictures of older pusaka very hard to get. But I will try to manage it
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Old 1st August 2005, 10:24 AM   #42
marto suwignyo
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Thank you for your clarification, Pak Boedhi.

It would seem that after all we are both reading from the same page.

I would, however, like to make the distinction between a Royal Pusaka and the pusaka of those of us who are less than Royal.

I agree totally that the Royal pusakas, which were made with the intention of becoming pusaka, would be made by a leading empu, and would acquire spiritual power as a part of the process of manufacture.

However, many families may have their own private pusaka which was made by a lesser empu, or which was perhaps not even made with the intention of becoming a pusaka, but which has acquired that power through acceptance of its status as pusaka , by the members of the kin group.

This acquisition of power is not unknown amongst even Royal pusakas. It is my understanding that Kyai Plered only became Kyai Plered after he was used to kill Kapt. Tack.

The overwhelming, defining factor in the assignment of pusaka status to a keris in particular, is that it is accepted by a kin group as the binding agent that brings together all members of a kin group, both past and present.

I admit, that in present day Jawa, this function of the keris pusaka no longer applies. It did apply until very recently in Bali, and may still, of this I am uncertain, however, there can be no doubt that this function of the keris pusaka did apply in Hindu Javanese culture, and when we consider the previously quoted statement of Pakubuwana I on the relative importance of pusakas, it is clear that in 1708, this function of the pusaka keris was still recognised in Jawa.

However, in respect the use of the term "pusaka" by keris cognoscenti, I would make the point that while people who are very advanced in the study of the keris, and who live in Yogyakarta, or who are under the influence of the Yogyakarta school of keris study, may use the term "pusaka" as you detail, not all very advanced students of the keris comply with, or accept this usage.

In this matter of usage, I feel that there is perhaps room for some people to follow one road and other people to follow a different road.
Especially when it comes to describing the percieved properties of an item of tosan aji.

I do not believe that this is a case of "correct", or "incorrect".

It is simply that as with many things in the world of the keris, there is a lack of uniformity of opinion.

Similarly, it is important that we do not confuse the essence, or the talismanic power of a keris with its function as a kin group binding agent, or in the case of a Royal pusaka, its function as a legitimiser of right to rule.

In the case of the esoteric power of talisman or essence, perhaps only a very few psychically sensitive people are able to know or suspect the nature of a keris---although it would seem that a great number of people would like to lay claim to such power.

However, with the kin group pusaka, the power of the pusaka rests in the kin group, and its acceptance of the pusaka in its role.

A pusaka keris can only be a pusaka keris when it is accepted by those to whom it is pusaka, as pusaka.

Thus, a Royal pusaka cannot be pusaka and will lose its power as this, if the people of the realm fail to accept that it is pusaka.

A family pusaka will not be pusaka if the members of the kin group forming that family fail to accept that it is pusaka.

The unseen quality of the pusaka keris flows from God, through God`s creation, man.
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Old 1st August 2005, 10:29 AM   #43
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It would seem that our posts have crossed, Pak Boedhi.

These are very well made, elegant keris.

Have you posted these pictures in order to make a point?
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Old 2nd August 2005, 09:45 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boedhi Adhitya
The first keris is the work of Supowinangun, the father of Empu Djeno Harumbrojo, the last living empu today. The keris was commisioned by KRT Puspodiningrat, The son of Prince Puspodiningrat, around 1930. Inherited by the owner today. (the owner certainly not me ! I'm just a "commoner" )
Dhapur : Sinom Wora-wari
Pamor : Ron gendhuru sungsang wengkon (gendhuru leaves, inverted, within border.)
Tangguh : Ngenta-ngenta (the village where Supowinangun came from).

The second is a keris once belongs to KGPA Mangkubumi, the eldest brother of Sultan Hamengkubuwono VII. It was commissioned by the Mangkubumi himself, and the work is done in his own workshop. Thus, the tangguh is Mangkubumen, ca. late 19 c. Inherited by the owner today.
Dhapur : Jalak Sangu Tumpeng.
Pamor : Tri-warna (three color, that is, three different pamor in a blade)
Tangguh : Yogyakarta HB VII - Mangkubumen.

The third is a keris once belongs to GPH Hangabehi, the eldest son of Sultan Hamengkubuwono VIII. Even so, this keris was made in Kraton Yogyakarta, commisioned by the Sultan Hamengkubuwono VII himself.
Dhapur : Naga Siluman
Pamor : Ron gendhuru wengkon (Gendhuru leaves, within border)
Tangguh : Yogyakarta HB VII ca late 19 c.

I do sorry for the qualities of pictures. Pictures of older pusaka very hard to get. But I will try to manage it
Pak Boedhi, it's indeed a pleasant surprise to have the privilege of seeing those keris pictures and complimenting the discussion. Thanks for the treat although sayang the qualities of the pictures couldn't do justice for pieces as those. Would you be able to take clearer pictures to post? This would be a first work of Empu Supowinangun I've seen and up to now, I've not seen any works of Pak Pauzan or Pak Parman etc... Thanks to the generosity of members as yourself, some rare/hard to see items are surfacing...

BTW, I'm enjoying this discussion immensely and learning from you and Pak Marto, the men on the spot. I've been made aware Pak Pauzan has ceased keris making a while back and that his wife deals with keris and has clients out of Indonesia. A humble and pleasant gentleman I have been told.
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Old 2nd August 2005, 12:58 PM   #45
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Yes, Pak Marto, it seems we both reading the same pages.

I agree with you, in the end, pusaka is a very subjective matters. There is no "right" or "wrong" answer. And "pusaka" term may applied to anything which has a very special values to the owner, no matter how high or low the qualities are.

Honestly, I didn't post the pictures to make a point. In fact, I prepared it long before. I just feel "unpolite/guilty" to the forum, while I insisted on the importance of studying the good examples, I've never post any of them

Since the royal courts were the center of art and cultures of Javanese peoples in the ancient time (and still today, in a lesser extent), any serious keris collectors should understand "the unspokken/unwritten standards" set by the royal courts, but not necessarily follow it. Without understanding the standards, it's very likely that we might became very confused, because there are too many blades (especially here in Java), too many myths and legends, and too many "knowledges" to follow.

It is also our responsibilities (I think) to recognize the masterpieces left by the Master Empus, and do the reservations as much as we could.

S. Lumintu, one of the Jogja's keris experts, once said, to properly studying kerises, ones should do at least three things :
1. Studying the kerises itself by handling its personally.
2. Read the good books about kerises.
3. Discuss your knowledges with others.

This forum certainly serves as a good discussion forum

Pak John,
Once again, I'm deeply sorry for the pictures. I took it with a Nokia handphone. Until I find a good affordable digital camera, just prepare to see this "eye-poking" pictures. These are ones of them

This is a very rare dhapur, with elephant head wearing a crown as it's gandhik. I've only seen one and other piece reported to be exist in Jogjakarta Court, named "Kyai Gajahendra".
This blade has a "minimalistic style" beras wutah pamor. The luks seem too "deep" for Tangguh Mataram, but the iron, pamor and all the works tend to be Mataram, ca. 17 c. The lower left sides (wadidang / tungkakan) shows heavy worn out (about 3-5mm) caused by repeated etching in lime juices for years.
Dhapur : Naga liman (=liman=gajah=elephant), 7 luks
Pamor : Beras wutah
Tangguh : Mataram, ca 17 c.

"Naga" not necessarily connected to the naga serpent, in dhapur term. There are Naga Kikik and Naga Keras, other then Naga Liman, which carry the Naga name, but without the naga serpent at all.
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Old 2nd August 2005, 07:17 PM   #46
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Pak Boedhi and Pak Marto, I totally agree with John. Both of you are offering us, Westerners, an insight in the study of 'keris' which comes from the people who cherished (and still cherish) these weapons.

Thanks for showing us master pieces from renowned empus. Most of our pieces are of far lesser quality and by unknown empus, I am afraid. Nevertheless, I think it's important that keris enthousiasts, as myself, care for their kerises. For us, perhaps they can become 'pusakas'. Who knows, perhaps at one time I will give one of my better kerises to my son ? Isn't this the first step to becoming a family heirloom ?

I appreciate your contributions to the forum and I am eager to read some more.

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Old 3rd August 2005, 01:53 AM   #47
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Pak Boedhi, I believe we may have reached the end of our discussion on the meaning of the word "pusaka". A rereading of the views we have exchanged on this matter will demonstrate that the term "pusaka" can have different meanings, for different people, dependent upon the value system being used.

I believe it is fair to say that the value system applied by yourself has its roots in the physical properties of the keris; the value system that I have applied has its roots in Javanese culture.

As you say, the whole thing in its final analysis is subjective, however, although application may be subjective, the values governing the subjective application must remain objective.

In respect of the comments attributed to Pak Suwarsono Lumintu, I would agree that his recommendations would assist in an understanding of craftsmanship in a keris, however, there is much more to the keris than only the skill of the maker.

In order to reach some understanding of the place of the keris in Javanese culture, study on a much wider base is required. It is regretable, but unavoidable, that Javanese culture has undergone change, and that much of the tradition and belief of Jawa has been altered or modified by contact with other cultures, societies, and belief systems.

I would suggest that although our primary interest may be the keris, that interest cannot exist in isolation from an interest in Javanese culture and history.

It is my firm belief that to understand the keris , we must have an understanding of Javanese culture, history, and society; such understanding can only be gained from serious and consistent study in the relevent fields.

Pak Boedhi, the academics are always telling us that correct usage of the Javanese language will be dead within a very short space of time, some people are claiming that within 20 years the only people who will be able to speak Javanese correctly will be professors in universities.

I will not comment as to whether I agree with this , or not, however, I think that this demonstrates that unless those of us who do maintain an interest in Javanese culture, take a serious and studious approach to the preservation of that culture, eventually the unique features of the culture will be forgotten.

It is one thing to appreciate and preserve a cultural icon. It is something else entirely to understand the place of that icon within the culture.

Because of this, my own approach to the study of the keris is a culturally based approach, rather than an approach rooted in craftsmanship.

I thank you for sharing your photographs of these superior keris.
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Old 23rd August 2005, 08:09 AM   #48
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Empu

Whilst we've basically covered for Empus in Java and Bali, wonder if more light could be shed pertaining to areas like Celebes (Sulawasi) and Sumatra? eg like if those areas have had smiths addressed as Empus and their local unique circumstances, customs/traditions to which they may have been appointed as such etc...

Can you help Pak Marto, Pak Boedhi? Almost breaks the heart to see some of those great old Bugis, Sumatran and all the rest of it of course and knowing so little of those great craftsmen who once made them...
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Old 23rd August 2005, 02:13 PM   #49
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John,
Great idea. While we are at it, could somebody shed some light on those made in Peninsular Malaysia and Patani as well.
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Old 23rd August 2005, 05:08 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boedhi Adhitya
What makes a keris "pusaka" while others are not ? Nechesh had made a good point, one of them is Family Heritage / Heirloom. ...IMHO, pusaka might be interpreted as "Masterpiece". In keris's world, it MUST fulfill BOTH the exoteric and isoteric criterias. It were the Empus who really made some kerises rated as "pusaka" or "ageman", and only Master Empus who able to made such (considered) "powerful" pusaka.
Hi Boedhi Adhitya. I'm confused here, is pusaka, keris with historical values though without exoteric & isoteric criteria fulfilled, or keris with both exoteric & isoteric criteria fulfilled though not yet inherited through generations? I recall that Kyai Klerek is treasured for its historical values instead of what called yoni.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boedhi Adhitya
(In fact,most of the court in Java consider a spear/lance as their most powerful pusaka, not the keris).
Sorry if I compare it to (hi)story of battle of Arya Penangsang with keris Setan Kober and lance Kyai Pleret and how the lance could only wound him very badly, and it was the keris said which did the kill.

It is said too that keris (or X-keris) is only used to end a fight instead of used during a fight, sometimes it is also used for executing extra-ordinary casualties of war. I don't know if it's true, was it always keris or lance was sometimes also used?

I'm sure the court in Java have many good reasons. Please verify if I'm wrong. Btw, I read in newspaper that several pusaka of kraton Surakarta are indicated missing. I feel sorry about that, do kraton people have documentation of their pusaka and photograph of the missing ones? I hope that spreading the photo could help finding.~IBS
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Old 23rd August 2005, 05:48 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purwacarita
Btw, I read in newspaper that several pusaka of kraton Surakarta are indicated missing. I feel sorry about that, do kraton people have documentation of their pusaka and photograph of the missing ones? I hope that spreading the photo could help finding.~IBS
It's sad that these things happens (missing). Spreading the photos (if any) with intent to help find it could instead cause more confusion. Instead of helping to find it, we would probably find replica copies of it made by forgers.
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Old 24th August 2005, 04:34 PM   #52
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Hi Alam Shah. You are right, I guess, if we do the finding and kraton people do the helping.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boedhi Adhitya
"Tosan Aji" might means "worthy Iron" or "honourable/respectable/adorable iron". It MUST have such qualities to became worthy/respected ones, not only depends on it's history. The very carefull and cautious traditional collector would then examine the keris history, especially by examining the "fate" of the owner before him. Were the owner life in prosperity or were they doomed with bad luck, living unharmoniously, or eventually, having a disease and death. Once it pass the qualification, then it worth to be called and treated as a Pusaka. That is, we can take "a lesson or benefit(=tuah)" or any spiritual meaning from them, whether it's philosophically, spiritually, or even more, "magically". This lessons/benefits are REAL (now I'm really talking about esoteric ). Any who didn't qualified, while it worth preserving/collecting, should not be treated as pusaka, since they have nothing to share, and thus, no benefit/lesson could be taken. If we receive it as an inheritance, but didn't pass "the exam", then, we should treat it as inheritage, something that connect us to the pass or families or something else, but we shouldn't expect "the lesson/benefit" from them.
This argument may only be understood and accepted with an example and wide explanation, which I think, may take a lot of bandwidths, and should not be tried. Even in the old days, this explanation/understanding would only be teached privately (and still that way today), while the commoners would be only consuming "the myth" and "legends" .
Hi Boedhi Aditya. I'm among whom have witnessed magical things done with keris. How a keris could influence the life of the owner and overthrown the fate and prosperity of the bearer, delicately indicates how people fate sometimes falls before by some keris categorized pusaka. I must disagree and I believe, that, we, human, are the ones who should conquer keris and not vice versa.

From what I know keris as remark of remembrance, is accepted by the bearer, also only if the bearer is willing to do so. There are messages verbally transmitted from the owner to the bearer before the hand over, call it again, mahar, and the bearer is given an opt. It is the decision of the bearer to accept the keris or not and at the same time accept/fulfilled the consequence/mahar. How a keris could decompose the fate of a determined man, where in the positive civilized world of mahar culture could've not been deconstructive, except money?

The words Jimat Ngucap, Pusaka Kandha. Should it be ...Amulet speaks, Keris tells, or ...Amulet and please speaks, Keris and so tells? I think the words context is different of the word lingga, which by necesh referred as mark, where if it's true it means either ...marks or ...marked or ... mark in different contexts. ~IBS
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Old 26th August 2005, 11:20 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marto suwignyo
It is my firm belief that to understand the keris , we must have an understanding of Javanese culture, history, and society; such understanding can only be gained from serious and consistent study in the relevent fields.

Pak Boedhi, the academics are always telling us that correct usage of the Javanese language will be dead within a very short space of time, some people are claiming that within 20 years the only people who will be able to speak Javanese correctly will be professors in universities.

I will not comment as to whether I agree with this , or not, however, I think that this demonstrates that unless those of us who do maintain an interest in Javanese culture, take a serious and studious approach to the preservation of that culture, eventually the unique features of the culture will be forgotten.
Hi marto suwignyo. I was told a legendary gurindam before the war between kingdom Sriwijaya and Singasari. King Sriwijaya sent a messager to king Singasari to deliver a roll of plain paper with one corner wripped off. However the messager himself did not know the meaning of it and could not answered king Singasari's questions about the will of king Sriwijaya. As that time Singasari influence was developing both in economics and politics far to Malacca strait, this mild sarcastic message was read as Sriwijaya would like to take over sort influence one by one, and it meant a declaration of war. Inspite of that, the messeger was still kept alive and treated descently, he was released to trip back to Sriwijaya after his head had hair cut and shaved very smoothly. This was meant so king Sriwijaya could see the message only when the messager bowed his head to the king, and so read as the humility of Singasari people to avoid war, yet the spears of Singasari which symbolized in the smooth short shaved hair, are always ready to welcome Sriwijaya.

I was about to disbelieve that the symbolic language, also in keris, is about to lost. I feel like the language itself is the spirit of people of Indonesia from ancient time to todays. But as I see the crisis of twin kings of PB and how Indonesia is having a continuous stress under economic pressure which force people to busily do what they do for living, ...and a murder committed by royal family of Bali. I think you are right! This unique feature will be forgotten, not because we have less interests in it, ...but because whoever maintains interests in Javanese/Balinese culture and takes a serious and studious approach to the preservation of these cultures, does not have the power to drive a living energy to the culture. Bali is a little lucky as the driving power is vastly held in traditional spiritual religion of Hindhu, but in Java where kraton is the stronghold of keris culture instead of Islam religion, ...I hope HB of Jogjakarta at least could do something about the crisis, more than any authoritive people outside kraton.

Though I think that culture approach is slight less important than to understand to energy which dwells inside keris, losing the culture is losing the self. But as powerless citizen, I am among those who only could hope that authoritive people could appreciate the culture itself and respect symbolic language both national and traditional. Like the symbolic language of Bhinneka Tunggal Ika, which reflected in Upacara Bendera in country palace. ~IBS
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Old 26th August 2005, 11:55 AM   #54
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Salam hangat Mas Purwa,

Despite the active efforts of enthusiasts and collectors throughout Nusantara, as well as our brethren in the rest of the world, I can't help but fear for keris culture's survival in the next 100 years or so. Already, the number of empus are declining in Java, so the ancient spiritual elements linked to the keris might be lost.
At least, there are efforts to teach the art systematically there.
I would be interested to know if the same decline is happening in Sumatera and Makkasar, if any of the practitioners of the keris arts are still plying their trade. I know Brunei sponsors the making of keris but I have never seen a contemporary Brunei forged keris to judge the quality of the workmanship.
In Malaysia, I guess we're having a somewhat similar predicament. Unlike in Java, there is a dearth of books on pakem in the Malay tradition, things are often passed down by word of mouth, or based on real examples of keris made by past masters.
The ranks of the Pandai Besi are fast thinning and I guess you could count less than 10 active ones in the east coast states of Kelantan and Terengganu, and perhaps many, many more tukang ukir adept in constructing the sarung and hulu. Amogst these you have people who are able to forge a fairly beautiful contemporary melela, with reasonably refined skills in forging and cold working (though I regret to say that I've seen one resorting to power tools on TV, to expediate the process, no more tedious filing ) but there are those who stick to making the cheap, low quality keris (called keris kahwin locally, since their chief function is to be worn at weddings) with the recognisable bicycle chain pamor.
I doubt that even the keris kahwin makers would survive if there is no support from the greater public. Too often they have turned to making gardening tools and farming implements, despite the competition from cheap, mass produced imports from China since kerises aren't selling. I know the bias among collectors leans towards antique pieces but I guess if you have some funds to spare, it's still a good idea to acquire a well made new piece as your contribution to preserving the art. Of course, passing something new as antique is a no no in my books .
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Old 26th August 2005, 02:58 PM   #55
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Hi Raja Muda. Contribution sounds @#$%&* in preserving the art. It is the culture we are talking about where art is only a part of it.

I guess the spirit of education, which reflected in symbolical words of hing ngarsa sing tuladha, hing madya mangku karsa, tut wuri handajani, is a good start to solve the cultural problem culturally when not just implied in formal education fields. It's a theorical good driving force, don't you agree? Any knows how to convert theory to practise?
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Old 29th August 2005, 12:03 AM   #56
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Pak Purwa
Yes, we can set an example, we can try to influence, we can try to teach, and we can start with our children as soon as they begin to understand, but have you noticed that the members of each new generation invariably know more, and are wiser than their parents?

Perhaps in a rural, or a village situation, the traditional Javanese heirarchy may still survive, but in the towns and cities, there is little use for heirarchically structured language. Bahasa daerah may be taught in SMP, but the teaching of Krama Inggil , or Madya, remains a family thing, and time spent on learning this can seem to be time wasted in today's ultra competitive environment. Some of the non essential trappings of culture can hardly compete with the necessity to earn a living.

Theory and practice.....

When I wrote:-

"unless those of us who do maintain an interest in Javanese culture, take a serious and studious approach to the preservation of that culture, eventually the unique features of the culture will be forgotten."

I was writing emotionally, rather than logically. As we grow older I believe many of us become conservative in the way in which we view the world that is passing from us, and we tend to regret that things are not able to stay forever as we have known them.Change, and new ways seem to be foriegn to us and to lack the integrity of the ways with which we are familiar.The ways in which a society handles the problems which face it must change in order to allow the society to cope with the changing world around it, just as the ways of the individual members of a society must change to allow each of those people to survive as circumstances change.As the societies within a culture change, these societal changes must inevitably impact upon the cultural values that are held at the time of change, and eventually, the change in society, is reflected in a cultural change.

Javanese culture and society is not the same in the year 2005, as it was in 1905, or 1605, or 1305.

The Javanese language itself is primary indicator of this ongoing change. Prior to the rise of the Mataram dynasty, the Javanese language did not appear to contain the multi level structure which became the dominant feature of the language as it has existed for the last couple of hundred years. However, although this use of language is a primary indicator of the nature of the society as it exists at any time, it may be argued that language of and by itself is not a core value of a culture, but merely a reflection of the values of the moment, within the culture.

This change in the use of language is not unique to our own language, but applies across the entire expanse of all language, with the exception of those languages which are recognised as being dead. If we live, we change. If a language does not change, it will die. Language, reflecting culture provides the same tale in respect of any culture:- where a culture is unable to change, that culture will die.

A core value of Javanese culture is its ability to absorb from other cultures and societies those things that will benefit the society, and to discard those things which will weaken it. When Java has taken from an outside source, she has invariably synthesized that which which she has taken, and remoulded in her own image, so that something which was originally Hindu, Chinese, Dutch or Portuges re-emerges as something which has taken on the form, colour or structure of Java, but which has built upon a foriegn foundation. This characteristic of our culture is at once its strength, and its weakness.

The culture of Java may not be able to return to the agricultural roots of Mataram and Majapahit, but the ability of the Javanese people to select the best from other cultures and societies , and then to reshape these things in ways that will benefit and strengthen Javanese and Indonesian society, and re-inforce Javanese culture, is the very reason why Javanese culture will never be absorbed into any "world culture", but rather will continue to retain its own unique identity.

So, although our professors warn us that the Javanese language is all set to disappear, what they really mean is that the Javanese language forms that our ancestors needed to survive in a heirarchical society, will disappear.In modern Indonesia the tiered societal structure that our grandfathers were familiar with is becoming flatter with every passing day. Our language will inevitably change to reflect this flattening structure. But the language will not die, it will live , as the culture of Java will continue to live, because both language and culture are strong enough to change.

If we are to identify a single value as the defining value of Javanese culture, then from a historical point of view this value must be the ability to absorb, synthesize, recreate.The history of Javanese culture and society is one of adaption and survival.As an icon of Javanese society the keris has also changed through the years , and because of its ability to change it survives today, and will continue to survive as long as it can continue to change to fulfil the needs of the changing society and culture of which it is a part.

In my previous post I wrote emotionally, this time I have attempted to write logically.

Javanese society, culture, and the blossoms of the culture will survive, simply because the nature of the culture is to change with the change of seasons.
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Old 29th August 2005, 01:17 AM   #57
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Very well put Marto. Change is the nature of ALL living things. It applies to entire cultures as well as people. The days of the empu are gone and the culture of keris is changing. Personally, i see no problem with a smith using power tools to help him create a keris at this point. It is merely the tool. What's important is how it is used. In fact, i think the smith might be a bit foolish not to explore the best possible tool for any particular job and an electric powered one might just be the ticket. Keris making is EVOLVING, for better or for worse. But i will say that some of the keris being made today are probably of the highest quality on a pure technical scale than have ever been made before.BTW, there are some very high quality keris being made these days that are never seen outside Jawa. They are being made for select group of Javanese buyers. And as was just pointed out to me just recently, many of the finest keris in museums in Europe were actually new when they were collected.
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Old 29th August 2005, 04:57 AM   #58
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Can one not say ever since the "big bang"...since single celled organism appeared...changes, evolution have been in motion...the limitlessness of duality in play as the way of the universe?

The word culture has been used a lot but what would the true definition of "culture"? No doubt every sword was once new whatever influences, "form/s of the moment" they took on the moment they did.
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Old 29th August 2005, 07:05 AM   #59
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Hi John. I'm not so sure there is a "true" definition of ANY word, including "culture". Words are mallible things and open to the interpretation of the people using them. And definitions, like everything else, are also constantly evolving.
That being said i'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. I can't tell whether you are agreeing with me or not. My point about the finest examples of keris in European museums being collected as new was merely meant as an encouragement for people to consider the collection of new keris, since some of them are at an extremely high level of keris art and will no doubt find themselves in some museum somewhere 200 or 300 yrs. from now.
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Old 29th August 2005, 07:40 AM   #60
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That's what I'm implying - culture or tradition are not something that are static but transitory.

New kerises; based on the law of supply and demand, the flow of supply no doubt will not cease as long as there are demand, appreciation of these new ones whether with encouragement or otherwise.
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