Post Prices Please!

[ALEX]

I agree with Ben, Maurice, TVV and few others - we should respect each other's selling preferences - sellers and buyers alike (and each other as well:-) - well done guys:-) No one should dictate or force no one to sell or trade according to anyone's preferences. I am not taking any sides, I am just promoting respect and equality for all members. Asking for offer is no harm in my view - forcing a seller to publicly name the price knowing that the seller prefers not to is impolite. If someone does not wish to participate in a silent auction - simply do not - no one forces you, but do not force the other side either:-)

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ALEX

I agree with Ben, Maurice, TVV and few others - we should respect each other's selling preferences - sellers and buyers alike (and each other as well:-) - well done guys:-) No one should dictate or force no one to sell or trade according to anyone's preferences. I am not taking any sides, I am just promoting respect and equality for all members. Asking for offer is no harm in my view - forcing a seller to publicly name the price knowing that the seller prefers not to is impolite. If someone does not wish to participate in a silent auction - simply do not - no one forces you, but do not force the other side either:-)

Hi Alex
You say you are not taking any sides ; i can not say the same, with all due respect for those afected .
The way i view it, so called selling preferences, in places not dedicated to business (read speculation) should only be the ethical ones .
I rather take it that, impolite is to put something for sale in a friendly forum without a price and still refuse to give it after your fellow members request .
Silent (or any type of) auctions are perhaps out of context in a members only forum; this is probably a more pertinent reason for the respect issue ... at least for some.
What you probably mean by forcing is, in the worst, a figure of speech; i feel restrained from further coments on this one .
Sorry Alex, don't take it wrong; i am only defending my dame. I am no business guru and i have never registered on eBay. I feel defenceless before certain exercises
Kind regards
Fernando

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by fernando

I am no business guru and i have never registered on eBay.

Hi Fernando,

That counts for me the same

Regards,
Maurice

[Rick]

This is just a thought that popped into my head while reading .

The purpose of these forums is to discuss, educate and further our collective knowledge of the subjects we study here .

Pricing methods in Swap that could result in a windfall for a Seller from a *naive Buyer* do not seem to be in the spirit of the forums as I see it .

[ALEX]

Rick - you're absolutely right.
Fernando, last thought: I understand and respect your opinion. Please allow me to ask for more: I have very nice and rare sword (18th Cent wootz shamshir. signed, in original silver fittings, double kirk pattern). How much does it cost. i.e. how much should I ask for it? What references do I use? Ebay? Other websites? Auctions? etc... I know that many will say: "shamshir like this will cost $2500 on Ebay", but I also know it'd cost about 10 times more on any decent auction (and the buyer will pay 20% on top of it in commissions). I do not know how much it'd exactly fetch though. So, why one can not ask for offer? Of course I can ask $25000 right away, but if I prefer someone who understands the above math to offer something in the acceptable range, and then work on that "seller/buyer click" which Maurice described so nicely earlier on, and without offending others - should I be able to? and I know the Forum is not an auction, I am using it as an example.

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by ALEX

I agree with Ben, Maurice, TVV and few others - we should respect each other's selling preferences - sellers and buyers alike (and each other as well:-) - well done guys:-) No one should dictate or force no one to sell or trade according to anyone's preferences. I am not taking any sides, I am just promoting respect and equality for all members. Asking for offer is no harm in my view - forcing a seller to publicly name the price knowing that the seller prefers not to is impolite. If someone does not wish to participate in a silent auction - simply do not - no one forces you, but do not force the other side either:-)

This is an good thing respect and don't try to put your will on other people

because you don't like the way that they put no price on it .


Ben

[Lew]

So far it's 11 leaning towards posting and 5 against. I guess there will need to be an executive decision by the Forum staff as to what the future policy will be


Lew

[Dajak]

I don't think the Forum staff has to take an decision on this because this could lead to no more swap posting by some members .

It would be a shame if this gonna happen because some special stuff never get to the swap forum again .



Ben

[Dajak]

[QUOTE=Bill Marsh]I don't respond to posts offering to sell pieces with no price stated by the seller.

I wonder if different prices are stated by the seller depending on who is asking?


So when I see "POR" or "email me for price" or "email me offers," I just go onto something else and ignore the piece. If someone wants to sell something, put a price in your post.


Bill strange I had an peduang for sale with no price on it and you did make me an offer .

I still have the email .

Can you explain ??

Ben

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Rick - you're absolutely right.
Fernando, last thought: I understand and respect your opinion. Please allow me to ask for more: I have very nice and rare sword (18th Cent wootz shamshir. signed, in original silver fittings, double kirk pattern). How much does it cost. i.e. how much should I ask for it? What references do I use? Ebay? Other websites? Auctions? etc... I know that many will say: "shamshir like this will cost $2500 on Ebay", but I also know it'd cost about 10 times more on any decent auction (and the buyer will pay 20% on top of it in commissions). I do not know how much it'd exactly fetch though. So, why one can not ask for offer? Of course I can ask $25000 right away, but if I prefer someone who understands the above math to offer something in the acceptable range, and then work on that "seller/buyer click" which Maurice described so nicely earlier on, and without offending others - should I be able to? and I know the Forum is not an auction, I am using it as an example.

Try to start by taking into account how much you have paid for it ... an ingredient that amazingly you have failed to introduce in your above example .

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by fernando

Try to start by taking into account how much you have paid for it ... an ingredient that amazingly you have failed to introduce in your above example .

Fernando after I did give you an price about the peduang I did get an mail that you are out of it .
Is it that you only want to now prices or want to buy seriuos an outstanding weapon.


Ben

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Dajak

I don't think the Forum staff has to take an decision on this because this could lead to no more swap posting by some members .
It would be a shame if this gonna happen because some special stuff never get to the swap forum again .
Ben

... In exchange for a more inoquous forum
Fernando

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Dajak

Fernando after I did give you an price about the peduang I did get an mail that you are out of it .
Is it that you only want to now prices or want to buy seriuos an outstanding weapon.
Ben

Precisely Ben, you are giving me all the reason . If you had posted its price in the first place, i wouldn't have to ask you for it ... as i wouldn't need to get out, because i wouldn't have even got in; that price was far beyond my whilling to pay for it.
Sorry, but that thing of you naming your stuff as outstanding, sounds a bit commercial
All the best
Fernando

[Dajak]

Outstanding was the right worth show me an second one that ever get to the market with the provonance etc like this one .

This has nothing to do with comercial it looks you don't now the market price
for items like this ,there is nothing wrong with that .

And looking for an bargain also nothing wrong with that .

But don't tell people that they have to price their stuff if they don't want to .

all the best
Ben

[kai]

Take a deep breath, folks!

I can understand both sides of the argument. Seems like there are pro and cons for both positions and it may be wise just to agree to disagree rather than trying to "win"...

I've found all members - regardless of selling/swapping/buying preferences - nice to work with and made quite a few friends. I do hope these positive experiences will continue! I also offer additional info on pieces in the swap forum (something I'd never do on ebay or other auction sites/houses!).

Regards,
Kai

[Lew]

Originally Posted by Dajak

Fernando after I did give you an price about the peduang I did get an mail that you are out of it .
Is it that you only want to now prices or want to buy seriuos an outstanding weapon.


Ben

Ben

That is why you should post prices up front. Let say you put a 750Euro price on an item then members would gauge if they can afford it without having to email you for the same price. I really don't understand why you are getting so upset at this reasonable idea. When I go to a gun show dealers have prices listed for a item they want to sell. When I go out to eat the menu has prices for each entree. So why not post prices up front? If you have a set price in mind that you will feel comfortable with just post it. Btw your comment about Fernando was really not called for. If any of us need to know prices I am sure we know enough people in the collecting community to ask for advise.



Lew

[Dajak]

Hi Lew it is difficult eating an peduang .

And the swap forum is no gunshow.


Ben

[Lew]

[QUOTE=Dajak]Hi Lew it is difficult eating an peduang .

And the swap forum is no gunshow.

Ben

You just don't get it.


Lew

[Rick]

Here's how I feel; I apologize if anyone takes offense; it is not meant .

I have a problem with viewing Swap as a 'strictly commercial' zone of these forums .

I don't think forums should be in the business of providing venues for dealers .

Let's please keep it civil Gentlemen .

[Lew]

Ben

I'm sure you have a very good idea who in this forum collects your style of weapons and who from your past business dealings with can afford to by them and not waste your time with fruitless emails. So my solution is since you have so many wonderful pieces you should just send out a private listing to those members and not bother doing a general posting. That way no one's feelings will be hurt when they ask or send you an offer they think is reasonable or affordable and you turn them down.

Lew

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by fernando

Try to start by taking into account how much you have paid for it ... an ingredient that amazingly you have failed to introduce in your above example .

Fernando, this is the most ridiculous comment one can come up with when talking about ANY antiques (I am sorry - I am saying it in a friendly way). I am sure some people do it - and this is their choice, but believe me - it's amature and very low grade. No serious antique collector, dealer or intelligent seller volunteer their cost. It is mostly used to trick a buyer as to saying "look, I am doing you a favor by selling with such a low profit", and it always irritates me. The market and individual interests should dictate the price, not what the seller paid for it! Economics 101 (and little common sense):-)
this is why I'd not put it for sale here (regretfully), I'll take it to an auction and let the market decide the price, not politics:-)

[Lew]

Alex/Ben

I am on a friendly basis with many of the members of this forum and feel like we are a band of brothers here and many times I have sold items at or below my cost because I am looking to buy something new or I have lost interest in a certain ethnographic area and I am just looking to sell off what I no longer have interest in. I don't think any member should be using the forum solely as a profit outlet. So please if a member has an item and he does not want to put up the price up front they should send out private emails to the people they think will want to buy it and sell it that way without involving the forum. I feel the mission of this forum is the persuit of knowledge not profit.

Lew

[TVV]

Gentlemen,

Let's calm down.

First, let us remember that participation in this forums is a privilege. So is advertising in the swap forum, and currently it is a free service available to all members. Eventually, it is up to the people who created this on-line place, who pay for its hosting and who invest time and effort into maintaining it to decide what the purpose of the swap forum is and therefore what the rules, including the rules in the swap section, should be.

In light of the above, I do not consider this thread a popular vote, and I hope that my participation here is not going to be misconstrued as taking one side or another. It is a mere point of view. And in my point of view, it is only reasonable that different people have a different approach to selling (or buying) an item. I understand the concern that some members may use the forum in an attempt to get a profit. It is only rational human behaviour though. Let's say that someone posts an item, but no price, in hopes of getting an offer that exceeds this person's wildest dreams. Then let's say such an offer is actually presented. In the end, both parties will likely be happy, because the buyer would have acquired the item at an amount proposed and thus perfectly acceptable by the buyer, and the seller will get more than expected. Perhaps the buyer would have over-paid for the item, but this was the buyer's decision, which he was not tricked into. And also, collecting is an irrational hobbi, and prices are determined based on too many subjective factors, so it is perfectly possible for an item to be worth more to one person than to anyone else. On top of this, most of the items we collect, are more or less unique.

I also prefer seeing a posted price, because when I shop I like to compare my options. However, sellers also want to have options to compare.

With this in mind, let me just point out that I would be happy whatever the final decision is, as long as we are able to keep this privilege of the swap forum and it is not taken away from us. Seeing the way the discussion is going, I am starting to get worried that the swap forum might be closed altogether.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
I don't understand why some sellers are so coy about posting the price they want for a particular item, if they are knowledgeable enough then they will know the true value of their goods. Maybe they should take into account that potential buyers may not be comfortable with making an offer on an item that they are not totally familiar with. Remember a buyer neither wishes to appear ignorant or insulting by offering a price that is too low but then again is understandingly reticent in offering a price that may be over the right and proper market value. I don't think any Forum members would knowingly take advantage of another in either direction. The price a seller originally paid for an item has absolutely no bearing on subsequent sales, the marketplace is full of swings and roundabouts. What's wrong with a guide price, something the seller would be more than happy with and take it from there, haggling is an ancient and respectable method of reaching a price that both parties find acceptable.
Regards,
Norman.

[Rick]

Gentlemen, this thread is strictly for input from members; no vote at all will be taken from the results .

[A. G. Maisey]

Some of you may be aware that as well as being a collector, I also deal.

The ways in which I sell depend upon the item that I wish to sell.

Perhaps half of what I sell is listed in a periodic catalogue with a fixed price. The items in the catalogues are are all relatively low cost items for which I can determine a fair market value.

Most of the items that I sell that are not listed in catalogues, are sold to people whom I know, or who contact me, and who want something "special".

These "special" sales often involve a lot more effort on my part than the catalogue sales, because I need to research the market in order to determine what is a fair price. I do have a lot of very good contacts, which makes this easier, but even so, and even with my experience, it is not always easy to fix that "fair market price"---and the price must be fair, because if it is not , if I fix too high a price, it can adversely effect my reputation.

For some things I cannot take into consideration my purchase cost, because the purchase may have occurred more than 50 years ago, when I began to collect, or the item being sold might have come from my grandfather, who may have purchased it prior to 1920.

However, some of the things that I sell carry values that are far, far too high to be listed in catalogues, and for which there are only a very few buyers across the entire world. One way to sell this type of thing is to place it with a reputable auctioneer. However, since I live in Australia, that auctioneer would need to be (probably) in Europe.Then there are the fees attached to a conventional auction process, and these fees simply drive the reserve price higher than it need be.

To my mind, there is only one civilised way to sell an item of this type, and it is to engage in negotiation with the potential buyer.

One way to engage in negotiation with a potential buyer is to invite offers. This is a legitimate way to sell something, and is effectively no different from a tendering process, a process that is frequently used for sale of real estate, and for sale of goods or services to large organisations.

In my opinion the invitation of an offer to purchase is just as legitimate a way to exchange ownership rights in goods as is an offer to sell for a named price. Both methods are equally legitimate, both have their points of strength, and both have their points of weakness.

The Ethnographic Edged Weapons Forum is effectively a big club. The relationships that exist between members of this "club", are not unlike the relationships that exist between members of any other club.

In a real-life club in any sphere of collecting the members will often carry out profitless exchanges that are based on many things other than the value of the items exchanged.Similarly, they will often sell for the same price at which they purchased, perhaps many years ago.

However, these below market value sales, and "even value" swaps will only be made between fellow collectors. If a dealer comes on the scene, the item will be sold for market value.

It is obvious that the only way in which a seller can maintain control over who he wishes to sell to, in an online swap venue, as opposed to a real-life swap venue, is to invite offers.The seller can then accept the offer of the person he wishes to sell to, perhaps incorporating a true swap, as a part of the deal.

The invitation of offers to purchase is to my mind a legitimate practice, and rather than one lacking integrity, it provides a way to preserve the integrity of the ideals of pure collecting.

However, what I consider to have no place at all in swap forum is the placement of advertisements by known dealers. I feel that this practice destroys the basic purpose of the swap forum, and should be banned.

If dealers wish to advertise in a forum having the nature of The Ethnographic Edged Weapons Forum, I believe a separate venue should be made available for them, and they should pay a fee for the privilege of lodging advertisements there.

[ward]

I am a dealer and collector. Generally I do not advertise on the forum unless I have a few items on ebay that I think members would be interested in and just give a link. Otherwise it is a few odd pieces I generally respond on this forum for fun more than anything else. Yes I learn some things and hopefully sometimes teach. I personally do not like give me a offer routine, but I do use it on online auctions and if it is in the ball park will generally except the offer. These weapons often get into large money amounts and to dismiss this is foolish. The borderline between dealer and collector is often fuzzy.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Fernando, this is the most ridiculous comment one can come up with when talking about ANY antiques (I am sorry - I am saying it in a friendly way). I am sure some people do it - and this is their choice, but believe me - it's amature and very low grade. No serious antique collector, dealer or intelligent seller volunteer their cost. It is mostly used to trick a buyer as to saying "look, I am doing you a favor by selling with such a low profit", and it always irritates me. The market and individual interests should dictate the price, not what the seller paid for it! Economics 101 (and little common sense):-)
this is why I'd not put it for sale here (regretfully), I'll take it to an auction and let the market decide the price, not politics:-)

I should thank you for your opinion, Alex, once you consider it a friendly one
You might either find my coment ridiculous, as a result of having reasoning over it, or just call it so, as a reaction, which is a different thing; or you just didn't get my point, due to my poor english.
I was only trying to remind you that you were demonstrating a recipee vocationed to profit speculation, and not at all an intention to let go something without loosing the money you invested plus the costs involved in its timely maintainance, inflation and that kind of eventual added values.
It is realy hard to exchange opinnions with someone who atributes a marketing identity to the articles they want to sell, as their intention is not to pass the said article on to the next guy for collecting reasons, but indeed a purpose of making good money with it ... eventually including to buy the thing in the first place with the idea to sell it, and never to keep it.
I don't think anybody is considering that being a dealer is wrong, for what matters; what could be wrong and is (i think) under discussion is the place where dealers want to exercize their skills ... like in this comunity swap forum.
Fernando.

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...
The invitation of offers to purchase is to my mind a legitimate practice, and rather than one lacking integrity, it provides a way to preserve the integrity of the ideals of pure collecting
...

Very wise and well said, Alan !

Yes, the "market approach" has some profit orientation, but, unless we're trying to build a utopia society here, this is how a healthy economy works. Someone mentioned "Real Estate" before; what they ignore is the fact that 90% of homes were selling for more than the asking price just 5 years ago during the sellers market, and higher offers were a normal practice considering the market conditions, i.e. supply/demand ratio. I understand we're dealing with our hobbies and passions, not real estate, but we still use money, and most sell something to upgrade or modify their collections, i.e. buy something else, preferably better. I personally would love to see more high quality items being offered for sale/trade here, but the notion of "not for profit swap" drives many away to offer their items elsewhere.

[David]

Well, i would say that both sides of the room are taking their argument to unintended extremes. Alex, i don't think anyone here is suggesting a not-for-profit swap forum. Nor do i think that invitations to make an offer is not a legitimate practice for sale.
What is really at the core of this discussion is what is the original intent of the swap and what has it become. It is clear to me that the swap forum is continually abused by dealers who are members of these forums primarily to sell their wares to our members. We all know who these dealers are and just to reinforce their lack of interest in this forum at large they are not the members who we find in discussion of this matter in this thread. I personally find these dealer-only members a great annoyance. Unfortunately the rules as they stand allow a loophole for their continued practice here.
Personally i don't care if a member here asks for offers on a piece. I am more than likely not going to participate in such a silent auction and from the responses on this thread it would seem that most other members would choose not to make an offer as well. Still it is the seller's choice at this point in time to do so. The evidence seems to point to the fact that they will indeed get less interested parties than if they posted a price, but hey, that would be the seller's loss i think. However, if eliminating this practice would help to rid us of the dealer-only members who abuse our swap forum i might be for it.
A Rick has pointed out, we are not tallying votes from the membership here.
This is just a discussion. I will say that if you gentlemen can't keep this discussion civil than i would rather see the swap forum disappear altogether. It is secondary, by a long shot, to the intention and purpose of these forums. If people are going to fight about it it is better off gone.