West African ? sword for I.D. and comment. - Page 2

Iain · 18th October 2011, 01:05 PM

No problem, I forgot to write that article really only has detail about European trade blades. Almost nothing about native blades.

colin henshaw · 18th October 2011, 01:16 PM

Hi

I would like to add a couple of ideas on these swords, particularly with reference to the distinctive hilt form.

West Africa came into contact with Europeans quite early on (15th century ?), and this had an impact on their material culture in a way not to be found in Central and Eastern Africa. Could it be that the hilts on these swords derive from European weapons ? The rondel medieval dagger comes to mind...

In addition, the form of hilt to be found on Ashanti (Akan) swords is also quite similar in form to that found on these Mandingo/Mende weapons.

A couple of images are attached to illustrate.

Of course its also still quite possible this hilt form developed within Africa quite independently.

Regards.

Iain · 18th October 2011, 02:33 PM

Hi Colin,

I love this type of discussion!

The rondel angel is intriguing, but first thoughts are that the rondel is a form marked by its flat terminals on the pommel and guard. The Ashanti swords, or what we are looking at from the Tomba/Mende are rounded. Which is not say the idea isn't without merit.

However, as I usually do with takouba, I like to examine things from the angle of practicality and how a form might be arrived at.

Given that these hilts are usually wood (the Ashanti example is somewhat more ceremonial) the shape seems like the most logical form you could come up with when trying to get a bit of hand protection, a bit of balance and a bit narrow enough to wrap your fingers around.

By which I mean it's not a hard shape to arrive at when putting together a weapon. I'm not sure Europeans need to be brought into the equation to explain it. For one thing, we don't have anything predating the Europeans which creates a big "oh" moment when things obviously changed. At least that we know of... The usual unfortunate caveat when dealing with African arms and armour. But just because we don't know doesn't mean I think, that we have to assume some sort of radical shift when Europeans arrived.

I guess my main point is, do we have any reason to suspect it required outside influence to create this hilt form? Personally I don't think so.

More direct European influence can be found for example in this Christies auction from a number of years ago. http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...jectID=4515427

Just my two cents/pence. :-)

Iain

Mauro · 18th October 2011, 06:24 PM

I share the ideas of Ian that the possibility of influence are minimal although it is difficult to ascertain. Moreover, if we have to find an influence from the 14-15th century weapons I suppose we should to look at swords and not at daggers. Again we have should have to look at Kaskara, Takouba and even Mandingo swords or the nice example that Colin presented from a previous thread.
Ian why you do not start a thread showing the Mossi sword ?? I also have a Mossi sword and we could compare them.

colin henshaw · 25th October 2011, 03:39 PM

Hi

Thanks to Iain and Mauro for their responses to my post about possible European influence to the hilts of some West African swords. Truth be told, I made the comparison to rondel daggers slightly "tongue in cheek" !

However its an interesting discussion, so I would like to counter some of the objections made and try to advance my theory...

Quote "do we have any reason to suspect it required outside influence to create this hilt form"

Given the propensity in West Africa to mimic European forms, particularly in regard to weapons, (we have already seen several examples), this possibility must be looked at, to arrive at an objective conclusion.

Its worth noting that in East Africa, where European contact, particularly in the hinterland was very much later, this form of hilt with a guard is not found. Seme and similar sword hilts there are straight sided - as are Omani kattarra sword hilts (but this may just be coincidence).

Regarding Ashanti/Akan hilts - there is clear evidence of some copying of European forms- here are a couple of images from a recent visit to the Wallace Collection in London.

The Mende also made copies of European swords and muskets, but in wood.

Food for thought, and looking forward to more ideas on this subject....

Regards.

Iain · 25th October 2011, 06:42 PM

Hi Colin,

Sorry if I missed the jist of your rondel dagger a bit!

I like a good discussion and this is shaping up nicely...

Given the propensity in West Africa to mimic European forms, particularly in regard to weapons, (we have already seen several examples), this possibility must be looked at, to arrive at an objective conclusion.

Mostly agree. Although I wouldn't say there's a propensity, I know of a few examples, like the ones you posted that are more or less exact copies. Otherwise we have blades that make their way into native mounts. However, I am struggling a bit to think of a wide spread obviously European derived mount?

I think the East African line is a bit of coincidence. For example Ethiopian blades, Sudanese or Omani would have been available in many of these areas. The fact that they did not get traded widely inland leads me to think there was no market, not sure why, but obviously they weren't in demand.

I'm afraid I don't see the influence in the round sword hilt in your pictures. I certainly do see it in the daggers, but as I mentioned before these are more or less pure imitations. The sword doesn't seem to be to me. But maybe I'm having one of my obtuse days and missing your point?

Still I think we have to make a distinction between obvious copies and forms that are not obvious and therefore possibly older and without European influence.

Any pictures of the Mende sword copies? A quick Google didn't turn anything up I'm afraid. Muskets are of course a more or less European import to the region so I'd expect them to follow the European form.

I guess I'm very wary of direct attribution and connection to a European form except when clear cut, partly because European writers not so long ago were unable to believe in Africans making advances on their own (not that any of us are suggesting that is the case!). I don't want to go near the same pitfall. Personally I think it's a little to easy to draw some lines, connect the dots and come up with a connection. I also tend to think common problems breed common solutions.

Of course I can also think of many purely European forms in native styles, like the interesting Mossi sword with the bow guard hilt Mauro posted recently. Even I would be stretched to argue that wasn't taken directly from French military sabres.

So what can I say other than I agree in part, but I'm very cautious.

Mauro · 25th October 2011, 11:39 PM

Dear Colin, sorry if I lost the main road. Returning to your question I have to say that in my opinion I do not see so many influences of European hilts in West African swords. Naturally there are similarities of some hilt and especially the kaskara (or the takouba that in my opinion is a variety of the former) that, however, has also his own peculiarities. I do not see many similarities of the rondel dagger with other west African knives. I also do not see many similarities of the Ashanti “knife” that, in my opinion, is a very peculiar and extremely characteristic “knife”. I always was surprised by the incredible variety and creativity of the African people to generate weapons which form is different from that of the nearby tribes. May be there are some tracts in common but there is almost always some distinct character that show the peculiarity of a tribal heritage like a knife or a sword. In West Africa the other weapon that was strongly influenced by westerners was the Congo kingdom sword that recall the XVI-XVII century swords and that could be due, in my opinion, to a strong imprint left in the local tribes by the first powerful invaders. In East Africa, Portuguese arrived almost at the same time but remained in the country for a short time and were sent away together with the Jesuits. However, the local straight blade, the seif, has many similarities with the kaskara except the hilt that is again a local characteristic. As Iain says there was no market also because people wanted to have a sword or knife that usually would show the membership of the owner to a tribal group.

colin henshaw · 26th October 2011, 08:04 PM

Hi Iain

Thanks for your speedy response to my last post.

Quote "any pictures of the Mende sword copies ?"

Here are a couple of images from "Illustrated Catalogue of Ethnographical Specimens - W O Oldman"

Regards

Iain · 27th October 2011, 12:17 PM

Hi Colin,

Thanks for sharing the pictures. Very interesting muskets.

Regarding the swords, I'm afraid I don't see a lot of obvious European influence here. Unless I'm missing something? Looks like fairly typical wooden handles. Are these blades the wooden type you mentioned before?

I'm probably missing something but in terms of a European connection I'm really just not seeing it.

Cheers,

Iain

18th October 2011, 01:16 PM	#32
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi I would like to add a couple of ideas on these swords, particularly with reference to the distinctive hilt form. West Africa came into contact with Europeans quite early on (15th century ?), and this had an impact on their material culture in a way not to be found in Central and Eastern Africa. Could it be that the hilts on these swords derive from European weapons ? The rondel medieval dagger comes to mind... In addition, the form of hilt to be found on Ashanti (Akan) swords is also quite similar in form to that found on these Mandingo/Mende weapons. A couple of images are attached to illustrate. Of course its also still quite possible this hilt form developed within Africa quite independently. Regards. Attached Images

25th October 2011, 03:39 PM	#35
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Thanks to Iain and Mauro for their responses to my post about possible European influence to the hilts of some West African swords. Truth be told, I made the comparison to rondel daggers slightly "tongue in cheek" ! However its an interesting discussion, so I would like to counter some of the objections made and try to advance my theory... Quote "do we have any reason to suspect it required outside influence to create this hilt form" Given the propensity in West Africa to mimic European forms, particularly in regard to weapons, (we have already seen several examples), this possibility must be looked at, to arrive at an objective conclusion. Its worth noting that in East Africa, where European contact, particularly in the hinterland was very much later, this form of hilt with a guard is not found. Seme and similar sword hilts there are straight sided - as are Omani kattarra sword hilts (but this may just be coincidence). Regarding Ashanti/Akan hilts - there is clear evidence of some copying of European forms- here are a couple of images from a recent visit to the Wallace Collection in London. The Mende also made copies of European swords and muskets, but in wood. Food for thought, and looking forward to more ideas on this subject.... Regards. Attached Images

26th October 2011, 08:04 PM	#38
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Iain Thanks for your speedy response to my last post. Quote "any pictures of the Mende sword copies ?" Here are a couple of images from "Illustrated Catalogue of Ethnographical Specimens - W O Oldman" Regards Attached Images

18th October 2011, 01:05 PM	#31
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	No problem, I forgot to write that article really only has detail about European trade blades. Almost nothing about native blades.

18th October 2011, 02:33 PM	#33
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Colin, I love this type of discussion! The rondel angel is intriguing, but first thoughts are that the rondel is a form marked by its flat terminals on the pommel and guard. The Ashanti swords, or what we are looking at from the Tomba/Mende are rounded. Which is not say the idea isn't without merit. However, as I usually do with takouba, I like to examine things from the angle of practicality and how a form might be arrived at. Given that these hilts are usually wood (the Ashanti example is somewhat more ceremonial) the shape seems like the most logical form you could come up with when trying to get a bit of hand protection, a bit of balance and a bit narrow enough to wrap your fingers around. By which I mean it's not a hard shape to arrive at when putting together a weapon. I'm not sure Europeans need to be brought into the equation to explain it. For one thing, we don't have anything predating the Europeans which creates a big "oh" moment when things obviously changed. At least that we know of... The usual unfortunate caveat when dealing with African arms and armour. But just because we don't know doesn't mean I think, that we have to assume some sort of radical shift when Europeans arrived. I guess my main point is, do we have any reason to suspect it required outside influence to create this hilt form? Personally I don't think so. More direct European influence can be found for example in this Christies auction from a number of years ago. http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...jectID=4515427 Just my two cents/pence. :-) Iain

18th October 2011, 06:24 PM	#34
Mauro Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 83	I share the ideas of Ian that the possibility of influence are minimal although it is difficult to ascertain. Moreover, if we have to find an influence from the 14-15th century weapons I suppose we should to look at swords and not at daggers. Again we have should have to look at Kaskara, Takouba and even Mandingo swords or the nice example that Colin presented from a previous thread. Ian why you do not start a thread showing the Mossi sword ?? I also have a Mossi sword and we could compare them.

25th October 2011, 06:42 PM	#36
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Colin, Sorry if I missed the jist of your rondel dagger a bit! I like a good discussion and this is shaping up nicely... Given the propensity in West Africa to mimic European forms, particularly in regard to weapons, (we have already seen several examples), this possibility must be looked at, to arrive at an objective conclusion. Mostly agree. Although I wouldn't say there's a propensity, I know of a few examples, like the ones you posted that are more or less exact copies. Otherwise we have blades that make their way into native mounts. However, I am struggling a bit to think of a wide spread obviously European derived mount? I think the East African line is a bit of coincidence. For example Ethiopian blades, Sudanese or Omani would have been available in many of these areas. The fact that they did not get traded widely inland leads me to think there was no market, not sure why, but obviously they weren't in demand. I'm afraid I don't see the influence in the round sword hilt in your pictures. I certainly do see it in the daggers, but as I mentioned before these are more or less pure imitations. The sword doesn't seem to be to me. But maybe I'm having one of my obtuse days and missing your point? Still I think we have to make a distinction between obvious copies and forms that are not obvious and therefore possibly older and without European influence. Any pictures of the Mende sword copies? A quick Google didn't turn anything up I'm afraid. Muskets are of course a more or less European import to the region so I'd expect them to follow the European form. I guess I'm very wary of direct attribution and connection to a European form except when clear cut, partly because European writers not so long ago were unable to believe in Africans making advances on their own (not that any of us are suggesting that is the case!). I don't want to go near the same pitfall. Personally I think it's a little to easy to draw some lines, connect the dots and come up with a connection. I also tend to think common problems breed common solutions. Of course I can also think of many purely European forms in native styles, like the interesting Mossi sword with the bow guard hilt Mauro posted recently. Even I would be stretched to argue that wasn't taken directly from French military sabres. So what can I say other than I agree in part, but I'm very cautious.

25th October 2011, 11:39 PM	#37
Mauro Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 83	Dear Colin, sorry if I lost the main road. Returning to your question I have to say that in my opinion I do not see so many influences of European hilts in West African swords. Naturally there are similarities of some hilt and especially the kaskara (or the takouba that in my opinion is a variety of the former) that, however, has also his own peculiarities. I do not see many similarities of the rondel dagger with other west African knives. I also do not see many similarities of the Ashanti “knife” that, in my opinion, is a very peculiar and extremely characteristic “knife”. I always was surprised by the incredible variety and creativity of the African people to generate weapons which form is different from that of the nearby tribes. May be there are some tracts in common but there is almost always some distinct character that show the peculiarity of a tribal heritage like a knife or a sword. In West Africa the other weapon that was strongly influenced by westerners was the Congo kingdom sword that recall the XVI-XVII century swords and that could be due, in my opinion, to a strong imprint left in the local tribes by the first powerful invaders. In East Africa, Portuguese arrived almost at the same time but remained in the country for a short time and were sent away together with the Jesuits. However, the local straight blade, the seif, has many similarities with the kaskara except the hilt that is again a local characteristic. As Iain says there was no market also because people wanted to have a sword or knife that usually would show the membership of the owner to a tribal group.

27th October 2011, 12:17 PM	#39
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Colin, Thanks for sharing the pictures. Very interesting muskets. Regarding the swords, I'm afraid I don't see a lot of obvious European influence here. Unless I'm missing something? Looks like fairly typical wooden handles. Are these blades the wooden type you mentioned before? I'm probably missing something but in terms of a European connection I'm really just not seeing it. Cheers, Iain