A Berber saber?

[Tim Simmons]

Great stuff!! North African. The scabbard really states it without any question. Well done. I want one.

[Rick]

Now I shall perform the dance of vindication .....
Thank you ....

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Great stuff!! North African. The scabbard really states it without any question. Well done. I want one.

So, I let the one with the definitive evidence slip thru my fingers? @#$%$##@$%^@!

Just for my edification, what was it about the scabbard that convinced you as to its provenance? I didn't see anything that couldn't just as easily have been made in the Phillipines, or Mexico for that matter.

[Jim McDougall]

OK, Rick! "Land of a Thousand Dances"!! boogalooo!!!

Anyway, I'm way confused here. How is a loosely compared scabbard the key identifying factor in observing a weapon? While it is true that leather scabbards are key in North African weapons, we beg to ask what an Indonesian style hilt is doing in North Africa. Certainly we have always recognized the vast scope of trade and the diffusion of weapons via those routes, however within certain cultural spheres the locally preferred hilt forms prevail, and would not likely develop multipally.

I know that I was drawn initially to North Africa as well, but I had not yet considered Indonesia as the weapons in that sphere were basically outside my field of study.

The scabbard on the Manding sword is diagonally geometric rather than checkerboard, and such geometrics are clearly widely used in many cultural spheres, so this comparison while interesting, I would still consider inconclusive.

As always! More research to be done

All the best,
Jim

P.S. I wish these could turn out to be Berber! That would vindicate my original suggestion and prove this old radar of mine was still in working order, and I too would be dancin'!!

[Tim Simmons]

My praise might reflect that I had only been awake say 30mins. That is right that the scabbard does look as is it could well be from the PI or Mexico/South America. Perhaps it is not North African. I only know that many blades of several forms from North Africa come with this sort of scabbard with that flap bit. It is possible that the scabbard has been put with the sword it does look rather like a machete scabbard. Am I allowed to change my mind back to my original thoughts. An Iberian influence would not be out of place in Timor and there abouts .

[Rick]

Hi Jim, just funnin' .
I'm just pretty convinced these are not SEA.

The scabbard does not look at all like SEA work or Philippine.
All the grommets used ?

[Jim McDougall]

Me too Rick!!!

That scabbard sure ain't SEA, but that hilt by the same token seems more and more Indonesian, and the hilt is the key here. We know the blade is probably British M1796, and the scabbard is ???? so we have to keep looking for a comparable hilt form, and most the examples that correspond seem to be in Van Zonneveld.

All the best,
Jim

[FenrisWolf]

In order to keep the reference handy (for when it drops out of ebay's system) here's the scabbard on the second sword, along with a closeup:



Keep in mind this did NOT come with the sword that started this thread, but with a second example with a similar hilt.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The scabbard on the Manding sword is diagonally geometric rather than checkerboard, and such geometrics are clearly widely used in many cultural spheres, so this comparison while interesting, I would still consider inconclusive.

As always! More research to be done

Good point Jim, Id missed that, perhaps in that case, we should look at the Dogon for a possible North African insperation to such cheqerboard designs though? whether by diffusian to surronding tribes or not?



To quote from.. http://www.uiowa.edu/~africart/toc/people/Dogon.html


"The Dogon are best known for their extensive carving of masks and wooden figurative art. The primary colors used by the Dogon are usually red, black, and white, and popular patterns include spirals and checkerboard motifs, both of which can be traced to their origin stories."

I assume these handles were intialy dyed red & black? that how it appears, to my eye?

The origin of this pattern in the region is reputadly from one of the 4 anscersters of the tribe.{The Nomo.}...

"Often depicted is the blacksmith Nommo, usually with a horse. He was the first to descend to earth in an ark or by means of a rainbow, bearing seeds and he laid out the first fields for agriculture. The chequer board patterns are associated with him and those fields"

from.

http://artworld.uea.ac.uk/teaching_m...n/welcome.html

So that combined with The grip shape could be an evolution or hybrid of North African grips, Nimcha, Berber Saber, Bou Saadi. Would perhaps mean North Africa shouldnt be ruled out?

It certanly visualy would sit comfterably in a North African weapons collection.

Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

I see that is a belt loop on the scabbard not a flap, The stitching and leather work does not seem to me to be native to N. Africa. I see a Spanish/Portuguese machete style. Spanish Morroco? I do not think the Iberian influence in SE Asia can be ruled out either. It does still not fit a nimcha just as much as something from SE Asia.

[ariel]

The two notches on the handle of this one make it look very much like Nimcha's.
The first one was nebulous.
This one clinched the deal.

[spiral]

Fascinating to my mind that the front of the scabbard seems to carry the belt, strap or tie, holder? rather than the presuamably seamed rear, , has anyone seen other examples of this front belt hanger before? I canrt recall any, myself.In european or indeed any other designs? {Althoughf of course it is a similar front affixing the loops & buttons serve on traditional kukri.. but I digress.}

Spiral

[ariel]

Originally Posted by spiral

Fascinating to my mind that the front of the scabbard seems to carry the belt, strap or tie, holder? rather than the presuamably seamed rear, , has anyone seen other examples of this front belt hanger before? I canrt recall any, myself.In european or indeed any other designs? {Althoughf of course it is a similar front affixing the loops & buttons serve on traditional kukri.. but I digress.}

Spiral

Not necessarily: it could have been worn shashka-style: edge up. My Bedouin " shashkas", however, are : one with a baldrick arragement and another with a kind of leather ring around the scabbard ( wear it any way you choose...)
Artzi is the person whose brain should be picked. He forgot more about Middle Eastern weapons than all of us remember.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by ariel

Not necessarily: it could have been worn shashka-style: edge up. .

My point was rather it was unlikely that the decoration was on the rear of the scabbard & the seam on the front?

That would remain the same whether worn edge up or down, I would imagine?

Spiral

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by spiral

My point was rather it was unlikely that the decoration was on the rear of the scabbard & the seam on the front?

That would remain the same whether worn edge up or down, I would imagine?

Spiral

Worn edge up for right hand draw, with the belt passing over the scabbard and through the loop. That would match the stain/wear pattern that's visible. Having the scabbard held in place by the belt, rather than merely being supported by it, is actually quite common in the middle east, though I believe it's seen more often with daggers than swords.

[Valjhun]

Ehm... Here come its bigger twin with scabbard.
Sea? NO WAY. Just a beautiful example of a nimcha from maghrib, not typical without its guard, which in fact was never mounted on that sword.

Blade is heavy and locally made. The smith tried to make a copy of an european blade, I think.

FernisWolf, any chance you want a divorce from your sword?

[TVV]

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but here is an eBay auction, which ended today for a similar item:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...OIBUAA:US:1123

The question is - Central America or Northern Africa? I find myself leaning towards Central America.

Regards,

Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely no need to apologize for follow up on an intriguing and ongoing investigation Teodor! and nicely done comparison. In the earliest years these 'Berber' sabres started turning up, I was satisfied with that identification. In later years, questions arose, some of these turned up in 19th century to early 20th c. Mexican sword groupings.
In review of the catalog of the collection of the late Charles Buttin (Rumilly,1933) which is intensely comprehensive, especially in weapons from Morocco, where he lived for many years, reveal no examples of this sword type. In other works by him, these are noticeably absent. In related discussions with other figures involved in study on the arms of Morocco and the Maghreb overall, the opinion that these curious sabres were not Moroccan seemed to prevail.
Other resources which include the weapons of the Maghreb and North Africa overall also have no examples of these sabres present, although later, the book by Anthony Tirri does show them as Moroccan ("Islamic Weapons: Maghreb to Moghul", 2003). In this book, these are shown as 19th century from southwestern Morocco in the Spanish Sahara (p.26) but no supporting data or reference is included.

I'm inclined to agree Teodor that these may well have Central American, or perhaps even Cuban or Philippines origins, and as with certain other instances, may have become souveniers from Spanish American War period.

All best regards,
Jim

P.S. one thing that always got my interest is the distinctly profiled blade tip on many of these (often British M1796 cavalry sabre blades) in my view reminds me of the blade tips on many kampilan. Admittedly free association, but curious just the same.

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Absolutely no need to apologize for follow up on an intriguing and ongoing investigation Teodor! and nicely done comparison.
Other resources which include the weapons of the Maghreb and North Africa overall also have no examples of these sabres present, although later, the book by Anthony Tirri does show them as Moroccan ("Islamic Weapons: Maghreb to Moghul", 2003). In this book, these are shown as 19th century from southwestern Morocco in the Spanish Sahara (p.26) but no supporting data or reference is included.

I'm inclined to agree Teodor that these may well have Central American, or perhaps even Cuban or Philippines origins, and as with certain other instances, may have become souveniers from Spanish American War period.

P.S. one thing that always got my interest is the distinctly profiled blade tip on many of these (often British M1796 cavalry sabre blades) in my view reminds me of the blade tips on many kampilan. Admittedly free association, but curious just the same.

What I have looked at with these is not the blade or even the inlay on the hilt, but the manner in which the blade and hilt are joined.Tang fitted into notch cut 2/3 way thru hilt. secured with steel rivets followed with a wire binding. Apply those same parameters to knives coming out of the Sahara nd you get a match, one seen repeatedly on the Saharan version of a pocket knife. They are not Moroccan but I do believe they are of Saharan origin.

[TVV]

I am just uploading the auction pictures for future reference.

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by TVV

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but here is an eBay auction, which ended today for a similar item:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...OIBUAA:US:1123

The question is - Central America or Northern Africa? I find myself leaning towards Central America.

Regards,

Teodor

With all due respect, Teodor, there is not such that style of work in Central América.

I must say, also, that leather work from Mexico is easily distinguishable, so it can be discriminated from the leather work of other places.
Regards

Gonzalo

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

With all due respect, Teodor, there is not such that style of work in Central América.

I must say, also, that leather work from Mexico is easily distinguishable, so it can be discriminated from the leather work of other places.
Regards

Gonzalo

Gonzalo, you know Central American weapons far better than I do and therefore I will take your word that the above examples are not Central American.
However, would that also include the Carribean islands? I have a so-called "berber" sabre with a characteristic P-shaped hilt and a motto on the blade saying "Para Los Valientes Dominicanos". Certainly not what one would expect on a Riffian sword, even if it used a trade blade.

[Jim McDougall]

In reviewing examples and text in "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America" (Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain, 1972, p.78), I am increasingly convinced that these 'Berber sabres' are of a general form of 'machete' found in the Spanish Colonial sphere. These have been a mystery since they appeared well over a decade ago in collections, and classified as Berber, from Spanish Morocco.
I found it puzzling years later as more were found, and at times these were in Mexican collections. With the suggestion that they might be Philippine, we looked to surrounding regions as well.
These examples, as the one shown by Teodor, and earlier by Valjhun, have been considered possibly as far as Philippines for provenance, but it does seem that Caribbean, ports in Gulf of Mexico, and other areas of the 'Spanish Main', trade ports into Central and South America included may be possibilities. This may account also for the simple hilt form, to the more familiar type with lanyard type opening.

In Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain, one with similar hilt and a sabre blade, which appears cavalry sabre type with blade in spear point shape, is identified as of 19th century. It is shown with another that has the almost straight Collins & Co. (Hartford,Conn.) blade and similar hilt, who produced many machetes in latter 19th century (op.cit. p.78).

Many of the examples of these that I have seen have M1796 British light cavalry sabre blades, with the 'hatchet' tip curiously profiled into one with a point radiused down and around. This curious tip profile has always reminded me of the kampilan swords of the Philippines, and I have often wondered if there could be a connection. In considering the sphere we are considering for these weapons that of Spanish Colonial trade routes, it does seem plausible that the shape might reflect that influence, but this is simply an untested suggestion.

One of these I had was with the clearly recognized British M1796 blade, and near the forte stamped 'MANU..' probably a stamp from importer? and the scabbard of the style with perpandicular appendage, which seemed to be a hold for withdrawing the weapon. The hilt was profoundly decorated with inlay and seemed very decorative for a machete, which suggested a form that could have come from the Moroccan regions, also considered at outer perimiter of the Spanish sphere.

In earlier considerations, we often wondered why, if this was a Moroccan weapon of some presence, was it not included in weapons groupings of collections. Perhaps, this might have been a high grade example of the more pedestrian machete from colonial regions to the west? and as more of a 'tool' not included with familiar weaponry?

Just thoughts after rereading this interesting thread from some time ago, and really glad to keep the case open!

All the best,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by TVV

Gonzalo, you know Central American weapons far better than I do and therefore I will take your word that the above examples are not Central American.
However, would that also include the Carribean islands? I have a so-called "berber" sabre with a characteristic P-shaped hilt and a motto on the blade saying "Para Los Valientes Dominicanos". Certainly not what one would expect on a Riffian sword, even if it used a trade blade.

No, Teodor, my statement does not include the Caribbean islands. I sometimes found very interesting african influences on the Caribbean weapons. The Guanabacoa machete, being a reglamentary weapon for the spanish army overseas, has very deep local influences over the form of the hilt, with a strong african flavour. The inscription on your saber´s blade suggests the possibility of a gift to the dominicanss. The Caribbean area of influence, of course, could include the coastal areas of Central América and Venezuela. But somehow, unless more research, I don´t feel personally this style of weapon as a continental american, but I can be wrong. Construction and decoration are the keys to ID this "Berber saber". How is your saber mounted on the hilt? Like this one? Do you have photos?
Regards

Gonzalo

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

How is your saber mounted on the hilt? Like this one? Do you have photos?
Regards

Gonzalo

Gonzalo,

Here is a link to the thread where my sword was discussed. I apologize for the poor quality of the pictures, but the motto is really faint and barely visible even when held in hand. If you look hard enough, you can discern part of it in one of the pictures:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=dominicanos

Best regards,
Teodor

[Gonzalo G]

I only recognize this form of hilt on your weapon, Teodor, but as berber. The construction is different from this other "berber" piece. It was intended as a full tang since the beginning, as a machete would be. This other blade seems to come from a sabre, and the original tang could be broken, intentionally or not, and mounted it as it is now. But this kind of contructive resource must be taken on account to ID this "berber". The motto on your blade, as I said, seems referred to the Dominican Republic, as a kind of gift, but also could be referred to the people of the colonial city of Santo Domingo, or even to the colonial soldiers born in this city. Haiti is another country, not spansh speaking, but french, though in some periods of their history they were temporarily a single country. Is the blade fullered? Does it have any kind of stamp or mark, apart from the motto? It is possible that this blade could travel as a machete to North Africa, on the hands of a soldier born in Santo Domingo but enlisted in the spanish army overseas, and there remounted in this way? It is not impossible, tough I do not know how much probable. An interesting piece, as many with uncommon features. Exceptions are the rule on the classification of some weapons.
Regards

Gonzalo