Foreign Legion in the Sahara

[Jim McDougall]

I just posted a concurrent thread on Ethnographic recalling that over the years a number of Saharan weapons have turned up with French military blades. I am hoping to find examples of these which might have markings perhaps attributed to French Foreign Legion.
In reviewing old threads over there, I found one Moroccan dagger (genoui) which had a bayonet blade apparently from a Mannlicher-Berthier 1892, which we did not determine of FFL use, but that was unresolved.
It seems most of the French occupation and campaigns were in Algeria with some in Moroccan regions from 1831 onward through 19th c.

[fernando]

The 1832 Talabot glaive/sabre, which have equiped the FFL. As learnt from different sources.


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

The 1832 Talabot glaive/sabre, which have equiped the FFL. As learnt from different sources.


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That is fantastic Fernando, thank you!
It seems like these are thebFrench swords they called 'cabbage choppers' . I had no idea these would be FFL weapons. While these swords which were basically infantry swords I believe, they were great for utility use such as constructing breastworks etc. Clearly not much use in the sands of the Sahara, but in the early years much of the campaign activity was in Algerian regions where terrain had notable vegetation etc.

Blade looks well marked, but nothing to the FFL it appears, but the Talabot markings are notable.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...It seems like these are thebFrench swords they called 'cabbage choppers' ...

Yes indeed.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...I had no idea these would be FFL weapons...

Also for FFL forces; not exclusive.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks CC! If I recall as a kid, our foreign legion 'uniform' was mostly a ball cap with a towel under it to cover our necks
...

I remember buying a summer hat with a neck flap, and my first reaction wearing it was to hum Le Boudin*.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwM3oYi5ltQ


...And they still carry axes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yASlGCLkBSw




*- I was about 40


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[fernando]

What took you so long, Wayne ?

[Jim McDougall]

It has long been an affinity of mine to find often obscure topics in arms history and try to discover more on these areas, and this, with the Foreign Legion (Regiment Etranger) of course seemed a good one.

As has been seen, for some of us, the stories of the Foreign Legion we were exposed to in our younger years are long remembered, just as would be the case with young boys yearning for adventure. Ironically in the movie "Beau Geste" which I unfortunately used anecdotally here, the opening scenes had to do with young boys dreaming of adventure, which of course brought in the "Legion'.
It would be hard to look into this topic without these elements brought to the fore.

In seeking more information as I had hoped for here, I have gone into a number of references and it seems there is a remarkable lack of information on the Foreign Legion in the 19th century, particularly in North Africa. That was primarily the reason for the use of the movie in opening, as this has been virtually the only context generally remembered as noted in the discussion.

I finally found a source which might explain this situation, from "French Foreign Legion" (Martin Windrow, 1971,p.3) ;
"...it is arguable that no body of fighting men in the whole history of European arms has been so inundated with ill informed publicity as the French Foreign Legion. For more than a century this famous corps has been alternately libelled and romanticized by a steady stream of sentimental fiction, ill founded horror stories in the popular press, indignant newspaper leaders, and catch penny film and television scripts. Some of the most persistent myths are still in wide currency today".

This is an intriguing opening for a history of a famed military group, and which explains here that it was known more for being notorious than elite it seems.
This seems much more the case for the years of the 19th century, which of course is the period for which I sought information here.

In further explaining the romanticizing of the Legion, this reference in describing Algeria (the region of interest noted 1867-82 the period setting for the "Beau Geste" novel) says,
"...the years 1867-75 were unhappy for the officers and men of the Regiment Etranger. Minor tax gathering sorties alternated with road building and deathly monotonous garrison duty in tiny posts in the Sahara. It was in conditions such as these that the abuses sprang up of which novelists have made so much".

While once again having to strain the patience of the parameters of the forum ajenda by using the "Beau Geste' fiction in analogy, it appears this period is indeed that intended in the original novel, despite its 1926 publishing.
Here also, we can see the distortion of the perception of the Legion which might account in degree for the lack of specific attention in the body of published material on French arms history as pertains to these regions and times.

What I have been able to find however suggests that the Chasspot rifles and later the Gras rifles were primary weapons used by the Legion in these areas and times.
The rest is as they say, history, and as this topic seems at a terminus here, I'd like to thank you guys for the entries and participation.

[kronckew]

Jim, The most famous Day in the history of the FFL is Camerone Day, 30 APRIL, which remembers the battle in Mexico on that day in 1863. Wiki tells the tale better than I can. It is the heart and soul of the Legion, and should be the stating point for your research into the FFL in the Americas.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Camar%C3%B3n

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Jim, The most famous Day in the history of the FFL is Camerone Day, 30 APRIL, which remembers the battle in Mexico on that day in 1863. Wiki tells the tale better than I can. It is the heart and soul of the Legion, and should be the stating point for your research into the FFL in the Americas.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Camar%C3%B3n

Thank you so much Wayne! well noted, and as it seems I am always studying Spanish Colonial subjects and history of Mexico, thats a perfect area to continue.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... While once again having to strain the patience of the parameters of the forum ajenda by using the "Beau Geste' fiction in analogy, it appears this period is indeed that intended in the original novel, despite its 1926 publishing...

Concerning dates, P.C. Wren published the novel in 1924 (1925 in USA) and the movie came to the screens in 1939, featuring a period of the Legion quoted as pre-1914.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Concerning dates, P.C. Wren published the novel in 1924 (1925 in USA) and the movie came to the screens in 1939, featuring a period of the Legion quoted as pre-1914.

Actually that is correct, though the copy I have of the novel is published by Grosset & Dunlap and dated 1926, and seen as a first edition. It would seem this was published promotionally as it specifies the Paramount pictures movie starring Ronald Coleman in that year, movie stills are throughout the book.
The 1939 movie starring Gary Cooper was a remake.

The phrase pre WWI is used in describing the period set for the story as is often the case with historical fiction to allow certain latitude in the plot and developments. It does seem understandable as specific dates would be of course confining and subject to too much critical scrutiny. As it is, the circumstances and descriptions in the text seem to allude to the period I had mentioned in Algeria in the 1870s-80s and thus the demeanor of the Legion that was popularly held at the time of the novel, as also described.

On p.20 of the novel, "..,.lying on his back, his sightless eyes out-staring the sun-lay the commandant, and through his heart, a BAYONET, one of our long, thin, French sword bayonets with its single curved hilt".
This seems a perfect description for the Gras M1874 bayonet which was used from that date until about 1886.

The mention of automobiles in the novel further illustrates the amalgamation of settings and period combined in the story.

[fernando]

Jom, does le Lebel also resemble the author's described design ?


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[Jim McDougall]

Exactly what I have been hoping for, analysis of the bayonets used by the Foreign Legion in Algeria in 1867-85, as per my views on the fictional setting for "Beau Geste" (publ.1924-26).
As I cited in the concurrent thread on European, on p. 20 of the novel,
"...lay the Commandant, and through his heart, a bayonet, one of our long, thin French SWORD BAYONETS with its single curved hilt".

In descriptions of the M1874 Gras bayonet, it is described as the last of the French SWORD BAYONETS, and was in use 1874 through c. 1889. (the preceding chassepot was a yataghan blade type sword bayonet).

While I am unsure of whether the Lebel was used in North Africa in the period suggested, it is well established the Gras 1874 was. The Lebel bayonet is termed of 'epee' type as the blade is of the section for thrusting as used in the epee of dueling style.

P.C.Wren was a vividly descriptive writer, and as a military man, seems to have a good command of military dialogue. While British, there are some ideas he may have at some point actually served in the Legion, but that is unconfirmed. In any case he did spend some time in North Africa.

[fernando]

In the movie ...


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[Jim McDougall]

Hard to tell by the scene, is this the 1926 film or the 1939? Whatever the case great close up, and sure looks like an epee blade. It seems often the case that movies dont follow the book, and as we have seen the books dont always follow the actual events, costume, arms etc. to the letter.
Interesting to see the kinds of weaponry used in the early film industry, for example in the Zorro movies they wanted to depict dueling with cup hilt rapiers but actually used period fencing sabers.
As the 'Rosalie' bayonets were easily available to the movie studios with all the surplus circulating, it makes sense.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hard to tell by the scene, is this the 1926 film or the 1939? .

1939 ... with Gary Cooper. The one they say that in equipment and scenes was a general good replica of the pretended period.

[Hotspur]

My second empire fantastique sword suited for French Colonial use. The cutler was Georges Leon of Paris.

Cheers
GC

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

My second empire fantastique sword suited for French Colonial use. The cutler was Georges Leon of Paris.

Cheers
GC

Excellent example Glen, thank you for entering it. I was wondering what sort of swords the officers might have been using and 2nd Empire is right in the time frame we are thinking of, and slightly later.

I wonder if there were outfitter/cutlers who catered to colonial forces in the way many London firms catered to East India Company, and later India Government.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Jom, does le Lebel also resemble the author's described design ?


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Further researching, in the novel, as I noted Wren does use the term sword bayonet numerous times through the chapter where the body of the commandante has the bayonet sticking out of his chest.

Conan Doyle's 'Sherlock Holmes' is mentioned several times, this did not appear until 1887.

The automobile noted as a "Roland' would have been a Rolland-Pillain produced from 1905 and later.

The consolidation of Algeria began around 1890 to about 1914.

In "French Foreign Legion" by Martin Windrow (1971) p.38, Plate C3,
A legionaire c. 1905 is depicted with white kepi, blue tailed coat, and indeed the rifle in use was the 1886 LEBEL with EPEE pattern bayonet.
From these elements, I would say that the depiction of the Legionaires in "Beau Geste" was most probably of that 1905 period (pre WWI) as suggested and the bayonet in the 1939 movie scene is indeed correct.

Interesting exercise !!! and thank you for the assist with reference to the "Rosalie" bayonet and the good close up in the 1939 movie!
Resolved.

[fernando]

Dear Jim,

Now that the riddle is cracked, and if you allow me the diversion, here is a brief story on the "pre-history" of the discussed Legion Etrangere ...

" We can say that it is in some way recreated because it inherits the traditions of the old Legion": there was an Italic Legion, a Legion of the Franks of the North, a Polish Legion, a Portuguese Legion and an Irish Legion. In 1805 , heterogeneous foreign units will henceforth be created: the regiment of the Tour d'Auvergne, the regiment of Isembourg, the regiment of Prussia and the battalion of Ireland. They will become, in 1811, the first four foreign regiments. During the 'Cent-Jours', their number will be doubled. In 1815, these eight foreign regiments of the Grande Armée will form by royal order the Royal Foreign Legion.Then at the option of its dismemberment, in 1818, the Royal Legion becomes the Legion of Hohenhole before declining in 1821 to become the Hohenhole Regiment named after its leader, Prince Louis Aloy of Hohenhole-Waldenburg-Bartenstein, a French Marshal of Austrian nationality. This regiment was disbanded on January 5, 1831 but on March 10 of the same year a new royal ordinance brings the Foreign Legion back to life from its ashes to arm the African Army deployed in Algeria ".

Hereunder the front cover and one of the illustrations of my (massive) copy of the Portuguese Legion, created with the purpose to integrate La Grande Armee, one that Napoleon took up to the Russian campaign.


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[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for entering this, really does add interesting perspective to the entire Foreign Legion situation, and its great to know more on just how complex this area of military history really was.

[kronckew]

Let us not forget the Leal Legião Lusitana, Britain's 'Foreign Legion'.

The Loyal Lusitanian Legion (LLL) was a foreign volunteer corps of the British Army, organized with Portuguese émigrés in England, that fought in the Peninsular War. The LLL was created by the initiative of Portuguese Army Colonels José Maria Moura and Carlos Frederico Lecor – exiled in England after the occupation of Portugal by the Napoleonic Army – and the Portuguese Ambassador in London Chevalier de Sousa, with the support of the British government.

As a light infantry unit, the Loyal Lusitanian Legion received green uniforms similar to those of the British rifles regiments. Furthermore, green was the livery colour of the Portuguese Royal House of Braganza, to whom the Legion remained loyal. The Legião was disbanded as a British unit in 1811, and transferred back to the reorganized and highly competent Royal Portuguese Army that helped Wellington kick the French out of Portugal and Spain. See also the 'Battle of Buçaco ', one of the pivotal battles of the peninsular war where they supported Wellington as he retreated behind the famous 'Lines of Torres Vedras' where The French were ultimately defeated and forced out of Portugal and then Spain.

Nappy's Portuguese Legion was, of course, the enemy of the Brits and the legitimate Portuguese Govt., conscripted from the remnants of the defeated Portuguese Army. I don't suppose they cared much for sunny Moscow.

Lusitania (named after the Roman province in Western Europe, corresponding to modern Portugal) was also the name of a ship whose sinking by the Germans helped convince the USA to enter the 1st World War on the UK side. Worth mentioning again, England (UK) and Portugal have been allies continuously, without a break, since 1373; the world's oldest ongoing alliance.


Ref: Wikipedia, Buçaco (Bussaco) Military Museum

[midelburgo]

All this mess of recreating legions and legionaires actually started with Henri II Valois in 1558. They had a bad start at the battle of Gravelines.

[fernando]

Actually were the Romans that started it, before 107 BC .

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by fernando

Actually were the Romans that started it, before 107 BC .

The Roman Manipular Legions were started in the 4th century b.c. The Marian reforms of 107 b.c. produced the 'modern' legionary organization we think of as the Legions of the SPQR. They degenerated to smaller units in the late imperium as more non-citizens were allowed in the Legions, and less citizens were available and willing.

The earliest Marian legions were about 6000 strong, with 'foreign' auxiliary units of smaller size. Legionaries were citizens, and retired after a fixed term of 20 years or so. Later imperial legions varied. They retiree and were given a plot of land (usually in a conquered are where they were essentially reservists) and a pension.

Auxilliary soldiers were non-citizens who served their term, then earned their citizenship. So it's the Auxiliaries who were the Foreign part of the legion. Late 3-4c+ western Imperial legions degenerated and could be as small as 600, and were mostly foreign.

[rickystl]

Interesting Thread to say the least. Thanks Jim for starting.

Rick: That MAS revolver looks to be in great condition. Glad you found a source for ammo. Fun stuff.

We must be close to the same age. I too remember Captain Gallant on Saturday mornings. LOL

Beau Geste: I need to watch this movie again. Been many years.

Rick

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Interesting Thread to say the least. Thanks Jim for starting.

Rick: That MAS revolver looks to be in great condition. Glad you found a source for ammo. Fun stuff.

We must be close to the same age. I too remember Captain Gallant on Saturday mornings. LOL

Beau Geste: I need to watch this movie again. Been many years.

Rick

Hey Rick, thank you for coming in! and I had hoped this would be a topic of interest........looks like another Captain Gallant fan! Its fun remembering those good old days and what adventure with these films and series. The opening of "Beau Geste" pretty much says it as it portrays the acting out adventurous history......what led to my hopeless obsession with arms collecting and studying their history along with the people who used them.
We're all it seems about the same age, but still kids at heart!